Athletic: Dubas Job on the Line this Season (contract expiring after this season)

[Hoglund4MvP]

Not a great team overall, but great defensively, and good overall.

Of course that rusty bubble fake playoffs after months off was all BS anyways.

Yeah it's true it works in Leafs favor too if you want to focus on how weird that year was. The loss could be bullshit because of the long time off, bubble, mental health from covid etc. But the story lies in Leafs hands after. Following it up with blowing 3-1 lead to Habs with the highest odds ever seen for us doesn't help reinforce it was just a weird year being the culprit.

Just want to make sure we make the correct decisions and it look like that's what shanahan is doing right now taking his time on the extension.

 

[All Mod Cons]

do you think we lost to an elite team when we lost to Montreal? They went to the Finals!

We lost to a team, that lost to a team, that lost to a team that won the Cup, so we were pretty close to be fair.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Except nobody did. The rules are acknowledged and accepted, only context has been added.

It's really amazing you like post about all time league rules classifying Leafs as playoff calibre, but then 2 seconds later go against all time league rules that say Jackets were not playoff calibre and convince people they were a good opponent?

If the fact that they were a playoff team was acknowledged and accepted, I'm not sure why we're still discussing this. You haven't actually added any context. If anything, you've avoided and removed context. I liked a post discussing that the Leafs were a playoff team. Columbus was also a playoff team, and while they weren't some super amazing cup caliber team, there's no need to diminish and discredit what they actually were, or misrepresent the circumstances of the playoffs that year and what happened in the series.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

If the fact that they were a playoff team was acknowledged and accepted, I'm not sure why we're still discussing this. You haven't actually added any context. If anything, you've avoided and removed context. I liked a post discussing that the Leafs were a playoff team. Columbus was also a playoff team, and while they weren't some super amazing cup caliber team, there's no need to diminish and discredit what they actually were, or misrepresent the circumstances of the playoffs that year and what happened in the series.

Going into spin mode until I get so confused what's happening anymore I end up looking wrong? I'm a veteran now being here all summer. Not falling for it. Good day.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Going into spin mode until I get so confused what's happening anymore I end up looking wrong? I'm a veteran now being here all summer. Not falling for it. Good day.

Yup. Good call. Twist, twist, twist. You forget what your actual original point was.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Going into spin mode until I get so confused what's happening anymore I end up looking wrong?

There's no spin there. You ended up looking wrong because you were wrong, and I imagine we're all confused why you decided to reignite this discussion, contradict the NHL themselves, and incorrectly claim that the Leafs weren't a playoff team in 2020. Hopefully we can get back on track now that you've acknowledged that the Leafs did in fact make the playoffs.

 

[TheDoldrums]

We lost to a team, that lost to a team, that lost to a team that won the Cup, so we were pretty close to be fair.

You have an extra step there. We lost to Montreal, who lost to Tampa. Of course this is a poor way to evaluate teams, which was my point.

 

[rocketman588]

I did not say "series outcomes don't matter". In fact, I literally said the exact opposite to you and you've ignored it. It's just not the only thing that matters in a proper evaluation of a GM's performance, even if it's the only thing that matters to you as a fan. Also, everything I said about GM evaluation applies to everybody in general, not just to Dubas. And it will remain true when Dubas wins playoff series. Please do not misrepresent the things that other people say.

"There are more playoff results than just series wins and losses"

Get caught and then claim people are putting words in your mouth

Maybe you should stop posting stuff that's such bullshit that you can't even remember what you say.

do you think we lost to an elite team when we lost to Montreal? They went to the Finals!

Much like the jackets they were not.

We just happened to lose to both and claim they're elite as an excuse

 

[francis246]

do you think we lost to an elite team when we lost to Montreal? They went to the Finals!

Montreal was a pretty balanced and good team. Honestly thinking back now, if they had a competent coach the probably win that series sooner. I don’t know how Jasperi Kot, Romanov and Caufield all sat throughout our series with them… ludicrous

Not to mention their defense and goalie when healthy was miles better than ours.

 

[All Mod Cons]

You have an extra step there. We lost to Montreal, who lost to Tampa. Of course this is a poor way to evaluate teams, which was my point.

I think it's valid. You're only ever 31 steps away.

 

[rocketman588]

You have an extra step there. We lost to Montreal, who lost to Tampa. Of course this is a poor way to evaluate teams, which was my point.

When you're gifted multiple once in a generation talents it is by far the best way to evaluate if you can get it done or not.

Montreal was a pretty balanced and good team. Honestly thinking back now, if they had a competent coach the probably win that series sooner. I don’t know how Jasperi Kot, Romanov and Caufield all sat throughout our series with them… ludicrous

Not to mention their defense and goalie when healthy was miles better than ours.

The fact they sat a bunch of their useful players for part of the series had a sub tier coach, went down 3-1 and yet still punked us is pretty insane

 

[Shooter2x]

I can't accept John Tavares is the only thing that separated Leafs being better than the Habs to the point we can even up the series when looking back in hindsight. I don't think Shanaplan-man will accept that either when making his final decision. Dubas needs to bring something concrete to 22/23 to offset the sadness thus far. He's in the negatives no matter how we waste our mornings slicing and dicing up the pros and cons and rules and asterisks.

 

[notbias]

What are these quotation marks around series wins? Do you not have to win series to win the cup? Are series wins not a valid indicator of the teams progress towards winning the cup?

Amazing how these folks try and gaslight people into believing playoff success is not important when judging a team's success.

Did Florida progress last year or buy a series win? Are the NYI closer to the cup than us?

 

[Dekes For Days]

"There are more playoff results than just series wins and losses"

Get caught and then claim people are putting words in your mouth

There are more playoff results than just the series outcome. That is a true statement, and that statement is not the same as saying "series outcomes don't matter", which is a statement you made up and falsely attributed to me, despite the fact that I had literally just responded to you with the complete opposite statement "Series outcomes matter." You seem to be taking the fact that it's not the only thing that matters when evaluating a GM's performance, and somehow equating that to it not mattering at all.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Much like the jackets they were not.

We just happened to lose to both and claim they're elite as an excuse

I'm just confused. Your evidence that the Jackets weren't good is that they lost in the next round. But when we lose to a team that wins 3 rounds, you still don't think our opponent was that good.

I don't think Montreal was good at all, but this argument is simply not consistent.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Did Florida progress last year or buy a series win? Are the NYI closer to the cup than us?

Through the 2020 and 2021 playoffs, Montreal had more series wins than Colorado. Clearly, Montreal was a better bet for the 2022 cup.

 

[TorMapleJays]

There's no spin there. You ended up looking wrong because you were wrong, and I imagine we're all confused why you decided to reignite this discussion, contradict the NHL themselves, and incorrectly claim that the Leafs weren't a playoff team in 2020. Hopefully we can get back on track now that you've acknowledged that the Leafs did in fact make the playoffs.

The leafs lost the “play in” so no they didn’t make the playoffs. 2+2=5 eh

There are more playoff results than just the series outcome. That is a true statement, and that statement is not the same as saying "series outcomes don't matter", which is a statement you made up and falsely attributed to me, despite the fact that I had literally just responded to you with the complete opposite statement "Series outcomes matter." You seem to be taking the fact that it's not the only thing that matters when evaluating a GM's performance, and somehow equating that to it not mattering at all.

No. There is 4 wins, then 4 wins, then 4 wins and finally, 4 wins.

In one play off season (before you try to aggregate statistics again)

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Then you haven't been looking. The issue is that some people have this belief that Dubas is the devil and is single-handedly destroying a dynasty team, so anybody that doesn't despise him with every essence of their being, or anybody that corrects the lies and misrepresentations that are spread about him and the things that happen, are considered to be in love with him, when they're really just a fan of reasonable and logical fact-based evaluation and legitimate hockey discussion.

His playoff results do not suck. His playoff series outcomes haven't been good. There's a difference. It sounds like the problem you're having is just putting way, way, way too much emphasis on the team's contextless playoff series outcomes when evaluating the GM's overall performance. I know that those outcomes are important to you, just as they are to me, but that's far from the only measure one should be using.

Winning is all that matters in sports there is a reason Tom Brady is considered the greatest QB of all tine it's because he's been to 10 superbowls and won 7.

There is a reason the Bills aren't seen as a great franchise despite going to 4 straight superbowls at one point they went 0-4

Nobody cares about context in either example they look soley at results.

If Tom Brady was 0-10 he'd be seen as the biggest choker in sports history.

He didn't he's 7-3.

If the Bills go 4-0 they are the greatest team in NFL history

They didn't they went. 0-4

Nobody cares why, sports ask 1 simple question, did you win or lose?

That's it.

 

[IPS]

Did Florida progress last year or buy a series win? Are the NYI closer to the cup than us?

Are series wins not a valid indicator of the teams progress towards winning the cup?

Tell me with a straight face that Toronto wouldn't be looked far more favorably upon to win the cup if they had a 2nd round or conference finals under their belt in previous years.

 

[notbias]

Are series wins not a valid indicator of the teams progress towards winning the cup?

Yes and no.

Why was Colorado considered a favourite last year?

Why wasn't Montreal given the second best odds after their run?

I see you edited to include this

Tell me with a straight face that Toronto wouldn't be looked far more favorably upon to win the cup if they had a 2nd round or conference finals under their belt in previous years.

so I will edit too

Yes, they would, but there is a narrative because they are the Leafs, Florida doesn't have a narrative around them and they bought a round and then got swept last year, they had 1 more win than the Leafs and 2 more losses.

 

[zeke]

Yes and no.

Why was Colorado considered a favourite last year?

Why wasn't Montreal given the second best odds after their run?

 

[IPS]

Yes and no.

Why was Colorado considered a favourite last year?

Why wasn't Montreal given the second best odds after their run?

Because they don't have a core of Makar/Mackinnon/Rantanen/Landeskog?

 

[notbias]

Because they don't have a core of Makar/Mackinnon/Rantanen/Landeskog?

Now do Montreal, or explain why Florida is looked on favourably.

Also, Matthews is better than any of those players, Marner slides in after MacKinnon and Nylander/Tavares are around or above Landeskog.

Also, their goaltending had a lot of questions and even more this year, that seems to be the big knock against the Leafs, funny that were favourites last year.

 

[Racer88]

That's not a fact at all though. Of course he can win in the playoffs. The team just hasn't won a series yet, for reasons that don't really have much to do with Dubas.

He doesn't though. There's more to a GM than their team's contextless playoff series outcomes. Firing him doesn't benefit anything.

There are more playoff results than just series wins and losses, and that's really the only thing that hasn't been good yet. While you may be singularly focused, proper GM evaluation involves a lot more.

Literally wins and losses are the definition of results…….full stop.
there may be different circumstance, different events, different stats but winning or losing are results

 

[DraftSchmaft]

Through the 2020 and 2021 playoffs, Montreal had more series wins than Colorado. Clearly, Montreal was a better bet for the 2022 cup.

Typical cheap tactics.

You fully agree that series outcomes matter but it's not the only thing that matters.

Obviously that poster is smart enough to know the difference between the Habs and Avs that offset the series outcomes, just like how the Leafs are dissected within their own specific system. Nobody has the energy right now to drop another 10 paragraph essay on that, it's been beaten to death all summer to the point Shanahan didn't extend Dubas yet.