Athletic: Dubas Job on the Line this Season (contract expiring after this season)

[2 Slick]

Because management wants to play status quo kings, the fans will have to suffer through yet another year of most likely futility once again. Their offence is still going to be near the top of the NHL, that’s not been an issue for many, many years. What’s going to be their Achilles’ heel will inevitably be lacklustre goaltending. I just don’t see this goaltending duo withstanding the onslaught on a regular basis. Neither of them have been very good over the last number of years, especially Murray.

Very little changes were done to improve the overall quality of this team defensively, the quality of our goaltending has exponentially decreased, I just don’t see much excitement for any prospects of making it far in the playoffs in 2024. It’s just not going to happen.

Should have fired him and the coach after the debacle in the first round against Tampa Bay.

Don’t jump on me for not having much fanfare for this upcoming season, of course I’ll still watch every game, but that’s because I love the excitement of hockey in general and I love my Toronto Maple Leafs.

Dare I say it, I think even making the playoffs will actually be a struggle this season, they just don’t have the goaltending to help get them there. Yes, they have the fire power to overshadow garbage goaltending, but even then there is only so much they can do.

This is the least hyped I’ve been going into a season since 2015.

 

[rocketman588]

Because the Leafs can't control who else is in the division. They're trying to contend while playing alongside the best/second best team in the league with Tampa. That doesn't give Dubas' a hall pass for every mistake, but it does contextualize the inability to win the division yet (they still ended up in the top 5 in the league regardless).

Just like the Jays can't control the fact they play with the Yankees or Red Sox

We played in the worst division in the NHL two years ago

Got the 18th ranked playoff team

And still didn't get out of the first round

The division was so bad that we thought it was a guarantee and decided to have Amazon film our great victorious run.

3 years ago we played the 9 seed in the east. End result was we still lost.

The division is tough excuse is such a bad one. Keefe has played 1 NHL playoff series against a team that would be ranked higher then the 8 seed in the East

 

[Enga Olly]

Context: they were not allowed a rebuild. JFJ wanted a rebuild but Teacher's pension plan (then owners) wouldn't allow him one. They did the same with Burke and then Nonis

When Rogers/Bell took on the ownership, they allowed a rebuild. That IMO is the context

Ahh yes you're right - totally explains Rask for Raycroft - brilliant

 

[Enga Olly]

I'd hardly call someone who can't figure out how to get out of the 1st round with a team that has a core like ours one of our best gms. Best GM can't even get an extension right now and is on an assessment year instead.

If all you have to do is identify who our best players are and then throw money at them to become one of the best gms, that's definitely a low bar. Matthew's and marner draft picks make up more than half the reason JT came here too.

I don't get why people think we wouldn't improve the D without Dubas either. We have no idea what the opportunity cost was to keep Dubas as GM, all we know is we have zero playoff success under Dubas so can't rule out that the opportunity cost was huge. It's fully possible Dubas is not actually great, just fell into favorable conditions with a core whose floor is massively high.

I ranked him fourth out of 13 GM's I've known since following the Leafs (I don't count interim managers). So "one of the best" is a stretch and "Best" is definitely a lie. At this level people don't just "fall into favorable conditions". Having some great players doesn't automatically mean smooth sailing. Look what other GM's like Cheveldayoff have done with his top players. Media have been in love with the Jets for a few years (before last year) and the shine is definitely gone now. He couldn't keep his young star, has traded for another disappointment. His captain has been stripped of the C, it's a mess - would you prefer that? With a great goaltender and all that talent Cheveldayoff sure "fell into favorable conditions" and look at the mess they have - but by your metric Chevelayoff is a much better GM, because hey the Jets have had a few PO series wins (3 in 10 years) never mind missing the PO 6 out of 10

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I never said they were a bad regular season team, but if we’re so focused on the regular season record like some are, I’m just asking where are the President’s trophies and division titles?

I mean if you care about regular season division titles they won a division title in 2021

 

[Notsince67]

Oddly enough.... All of those teams went to the Stanly Cup finals last 8 years or won the Stanly cup

Except for one team

Oddly enough, 26 teams did not make the playoffs sometime in the last 6 years

 

[Dekes For Days]

just come out and state the facts...he cannot win in the playoffs...

That's not a fact at all though. Of course he can win in the playoffs. The team just hasn't won a series yet, for reasons that don't really have much to do with Dubas.

he deserves to be fired...

He doesn't though. There's more to a GM than their team's contextless playoff series outcomes. Firing him doesn't benefit anything.

His playoff results do suck. Results are results plain and simple

There are more playoff results than just series wins and losses, and that's really the only thing that hasn't been good yet. While you may be singularly focused, proper GM evaluation involves a lot more.

 

[Havoc]

I ranked him fourth out of 13 GM's I've known since following the Leafs (I don't count interim managers). So "one of the best" is a stretch and "Best" is definitely a lie. At this level people don't just "fall into favorable conditions". Having some great players doesn't automatically mean smooth sailing. Look what other GM's like Cheveldayoff have done with his top players. Media have been in love with the Jets for a few years (before last year) and the shine is definitely gone now. He couldn't keep his young star, has traded for another disappointment. His captain has been stripped of the C, it's a mess - would you prefer that? With a great goaltender and all that talent Cheveldayoff sure "fell into favorable conditions" and look at the mess they have - but by your metric Chevelayoff is a much better GM, because hey the Jets have had a few PO series wins (3 in 10 years) never mind missing the PO 6 out of 10

Why can't Dubas have fallen in favorable conditions?

The core was constructed through paths that don't require Dubas to be a Leaf and Shanahan received a 6 year extension due to this constant upward trend (reward) in contrast to Dubas coming up short to be granted an extension at this current time. I mean, in a record setting regular season Dubas can barely scrape a GM of the year vote. Matthews winning the hart while Dubas and Keefe get close to zero recognition from their peers is more evidence of favorable conditions (team) and the inability to take advantage of it (gm and by extension coach).

Upper management had a vision for the team since 2014, so yes a GM can come into favorable conditions in 2018 seeing as our cup odds at the time Dubas received autonomy was already top 5.

Jackets Habs Tampa, nice variety of losses to analyze that happened in the 1st round itself. Zero success so far objectively pushes Dubas towards favorable conditions spectrum.

That is good news for us. Only bad news for Dubas. We are fine (team), only Dubas is in trouble and under the radar of being a possible hindrance to our goals.

 

[Notsince67]

We played in the worst division in the NHL two years ago

Got the 18th ranked playoff team

And still didn't get out of the first round

The division was so bad that we thought it was a guarantee and decided to have Amazon film our great victorious run.

3 years ago we played the 9 seed in the east. End result was we still lost.

The division is tough excuse is such a bad one. Keefe has played 1 NHL playoff series against a team that would be ranked higher then the 8 seed in the East

Would be difficult to stretch the imagination to a point where I could say that the West division was better. You have a better imagination than I do.

 

[geo25]

That's not a fact at all though. Of course he can win in the playoffs. The team just hasn't won a series yet, for reasons that don't really have much to do with Dubas.

He doesn't though. There's more to a GM than their team's contextless playoff series outcomes. Firing him doesn't benefit anything.

There are more playoff results than just series wins and losses, and that's really the only thing that hasn't been good yet. While you may be singularly focused, proper GM evaluation involves a lot more.

We're on totally different wave lengths. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I ranked him fourth out of 13 GM's I've known since following the Leafs (I don't count interim managers). So "one of the best" is a stretch and "Best" is definitely a lie. At this level people don't just "fall into favorable conditions". Having some great players doesn't automatically mean smooth sailing. Look what other GM's like Cheveldayoff have done with his top players. Media have been in love with the Jets for a few years (before last year) and the shine is definitely gone now. He couldn't keep his young star, has traded for another disappointment. His captain has been stripped of the C, it's a mess - would you prefer that? With a great goaltender and all that talent Cheveldayoff sure "fell into favorable conditions" and look at the mess they have - but by your metric Chevelayoff is a much better GM, because hey the Jets have had a few PO series wins (3 in 10 years) never mind missing the PO 6 out of 10

People that have an opinion that's different from yours aren't necessarily lying, in fact they probably are not lying in the vast majority of cases. It's just that they see things differently that you do which is perfectly normal.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Should have fired him and the coach after the debacle in the first round against Tampa Bay.

How was the Tampa series a "debacle?" Thats the kind of language appropriate for the Montreal series, but not last years.

 

[Havoc]

The team just hasn't won a series yet, for reasons that don't really have much to do with Dubas.

I guess Dubas wishes you were his boss instead of Shanahan then. He'd have gotten his extension now if Shanahan believed the reasons we have continuously lost in the 1st round have nothing to do with Dubas.

Interesting quotes from the Sabres GM extension:

“Kevyn’s leadership and vision over the past two seasons has proven invaluable, and I’m confident in his ability to continue move us forward as an organization,” owner Terry Pegula said in statement. “I, along with fans and community, am happy to see Kevyn continue to build a winning culture both on and off the ice.”

As of September 2022, Dubas has not convinced Shanahan he deserves similar statements (to be fair, perhaps he convinced him at a fraction of the amount required, but is still falling short as of todays date). That's all fax, no printer.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

How was the Tampa series a "debacle?" Thats the kind of language appropriate for the Montreal series, but not last years.

The generation slightly older than generation that says stuff like "all fax no printer" grew up in house where we would get kicked out of the house if we ever became a Habs fan.

For sure that series is playing a big role today when deciding to extend or not. We were 10000 times better than them and up 3-1. Losing that series is the professional version of getting kicked out of home by wearing a Habs jersey.

It funny people talk about favorable conditions yesterday and today. Under achieve and suffer injury, finish 8th, but get rewarded with luck. Because of covid instead of going 1v8 we go 8v9. A team ranked 9th is supposed to be golfing. Still lose. Then we get the Habs. Still lose. Then we get Point on a quad tear and Kucherov in need of puffer like he has asthma in game 7, still lose. The two teams were equal. If Marner tears his quad its no longer equal and you expect Bolts to take it.

Dubas legacy here if he doesnt have a good season is teaching us how to ruin favored conditions.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Oddly enough, 26 teams did not make the playoffs sometime in the last 6 years

Leafs didn't make the playoffs in 2020. They made the play-ins. Leafs do not have a 7 year playoff streak unless you want to give them participation ribbon style credit for 2020.

Filter rounds 1-4 and let me know if you see Leafs, because I don't.

Official Site of the National Hockey League | NHL.com

The official National Hockey League website including news, rosters, stats, schedules, teams, and video.

www.nhl.com

 

[Shooter2x]

Leafs didn't make the playoffs in 2020. They made the play-ins. Leafs do not have a 7 year playoff streak unless you want to give them participation ribbon style credit for 2020.

Filter rounds 1-4 and let me know if you see Leafs, because I don't.

Official Site of the National Hockey League | NHL.com

The official National Hockey League website including news, rosters, stats, schedules, teams, and video.

www.nhl.com

All teams that made the play-ins are officially counted as making the playoffs.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

All teams that made the play-ins are officially counted as making the playoffs.

Reason play-ins got associate with playoffs is because the player stats need to be recorded somewhere and it can't be recorded in regular season stats. So all teams who made play-ins get participation ribbon for playoffs, then the real playoff teams are in the real round 1. When Shanahan evaluate Dubas he won't consider it playoffs especially since shanahan is from the old school era and would look at it as participation ribbon too.

If we are more concern with technicalities then sure they have a playoff streak if we are concern with success they dont have a playoff streak (I meant 7 year streak not streak).

 

[rocketman588]

Would be difficult to stretch the imagination to a point where I could say that the West division was better. You have a better imagination than I do.

No matter which one you think was slightly weaker it's not like Keefe had to face the "big bad Atlantic powerhouses" 2 of his first three years in the playoffs

 

[Shooter2x]

If we are more concern with technicalities then sure they have a playoff streak if we are concern with success they dont have a playoff streak.

Fair.

 

[rocketman588]

That's not a fact at all though. Of course he can win in the playoffs. The team just hasn't won a series yet, for reasons that don't really have much to do with Dubas.

He doesn't though. There's more to a GM than their team's contextless playoff series outcomes. Firing him doesn't benefit anything.

There are more playoff results than just series wins and losses, and that's really the only thing that hasn't been good yet. While you may be singularly focused, proper GM evaluation involves a lot more.

Losing series doesn't matter in the playoffs now I guess.

What a moronic take. Also of course losing is on Dubas he's the one that put together the team and hired the head coach.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Losing series doesn't matter in the playoffs now I guess.

What a moronic take. Also of course losing is on Dubas he's the one that put together the team and hired the head coach.

It is on Dubas and the rest of the team no doubt.

 

[ToneDog]

Friedge discussed this in depth with JD Bunkis. I found it interesting that he said management was not happy paying Babs $20m not to coach. The other interesting note from Friedge is that Trotz has taken care of his family and is ready to return.

 

[Havoc]

Friedge discussed this in depth with JD Bunkis. I found it interesting that he said management was not happy paying Babs $20m not to coach. The other interesting note from Friedge is that Trotz has taken care of his family and is ready to return.

More evidence Dubas is not safe.

Shanahan gave Babcock that money and still fired him, costing us millions on top of millions, instead of holding on stubbornly.

“It really just came down to the last couple of weeks and it got to the point where (Kyle Dubas and I) spoke in the last 48 hours and I just felt that it was something that needed to be done and Kyle felt the same way,” Shanahan said of the decision to part ways with Babcock. “So seeing as I had been the one that hired Mike, I felt that it was very important for me to get on a plane this morning and fly here and face Mike and be with Kyle to tell him myself that we had made a decision together that we felt was in the best interest of the club.”

 

[TheDoldrums]

Friedge discussed this in depth with JD Bunkis. I found it interesting that he said management was not happy paying Babs $20m not to coach. The other interesting note from Friedge is that Trotz has taken care of his family and is ready to return.

Do you mean ownership? Why would management care about spending money outside of the cap.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I guess Dubas wishes you were his boss instead of Shanahan then. He'd have gotten his extension now if Shanahan believed the reasons we have continuously lost in the 1st round have nothing to do with Dubas.

Interesting quotes from the Sabres GM extension:

“Kevyn’s leadership and vision over the past two seasons has proven invaluable, and I’m confident in his ability to continue move us forward as an organization,” owner Terry Pegula said in statement. “I, along with fans and community, am happy to see Kevyn continue to build a winning culture both on and off the ice.”

As of September 2022, Dubas has not convinced Shanahan he deserves similar statements (to be fair, perhaps he convinced him at a fraction of the amount required, but is still falling short as of todays date).

You're making a lot of unsubstantiated assumptions here about what Shanahan thinks and would do. Not sure what a Buffalo GM extension has to do with anything. They're in an entirely different situation and stage of development, and they're going to grasp onto anything remotely positive as they try to emerge from one of the biggest tire fire messes of the modern era. Shanahan has had plenty of positive and complimentary things to say about Dubas.

Losing series doesn't matter in the playoffs now I guess.

Nobody said that. Series outcomes matter. They're just far from all that matters when evaluating a GM's performance.