nik, you do realize that Hap Day was also never an all-star, right? Hap played about half of his prime after the advent of the postseason all-star selections, but never got the nod. Should we dock him for it, as well, or should we take into account the fact that both Day and Horner were not only playing in a strong era for defensemen, but in the shadow of an icon?
Doug Mohns was also never picked for a postseason all-star team, (nor was Seattle's own Ed Westfall if we're talking about forwards, as well). Adam Foote has never been picked and almost certainly won't be before he retires. Of course, there is an important difference between Red Horner and the aforementioned players. Horner was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1965, shortly after the hall moved and set up in Toronto; the others are still on the outside looking in.
Defensemen taken in the first eight rounds of the draft with only one all-star nod include Zubov, Suter, Goldham, Housley and Carlyle. Should we start questioning the abilities of these players because of a relative lack of presence on all-star lists? Is Dan Boyle (no one's going to draft him, so I will use his name) as good as the above because he's got the same number of all-star nods? I don't think so. The postseason all-star teams are restrictive to begin with (only 4 defensemen per season) and the picks, themselves, are often head-scratchers. Take it with a grain of salt.
I find it curious that no one criticizes players picked relatively early who are not Hall of Famers, but now we're hearing that Red Horner should be knocked because he was never a postseason all-star. Just sticking with defensemen, did anyone balk when Mark Howe, J.C. Tremblay, Carl Brewer and Bill White were selected before Red Horner? I mean, Horner's in the Hall and those guys are not.
We've been conditioned to largely ignore the fact that certain players we know were great haven't been picked by the Hall for whatever reason. All four of the non-Hall of Famers I mentioned were all great defensemen and worthy of their selection. Perhaps it's time we start realizing that postseason all-star picks are often just as capricious and unfair as Hall selections?
Nik, your prejudice against Horner probably reflects the opinions of many of his contemporaries, as well. "Just a goon" is essentially the label you put on him after the pick was made, before I showed that Red was actually a very good offensive player, and as good a passer as Earl Seibert. Someone made the comment that the Leafs offense featured the Kid Line and that Horner's numbers were perhaps distorted due to that fact, but failed to mention the fact that Seibert spent a lot of time feeding pucks to the Bread Line and had Cecil Dillon on a
second line (Dillon is a good player on an all-time second line, so for him to play on a real-world 2nd line is kind of ridiculous) for a lot of that time.
Comparing Horner and Seibert's offensive numbers was completely fair, and it showed clearly that Red had a high level of offensive ability, but quite possibly Horner's contemporaries also couldn't see past the fighting (which was the great source of his penalty minutes) and didn't give him a lot of credit when it came time to pick the postseason all-stars. As far as his PIMs go, given that we
know he was the league's most frequent (and arguably greatest) fighter during his career and that we have
no evidence Horner was a grabber who took a lot of cheap minor penalties, the conclusion is obviously that the PIMs came in 5 minute increments. Unless you have some evidence to the contrary, I see no reason to assume that Red Horner will take any more minor penalties in an ATD setting than any other physical defenseman of his ilk. As far as the fighting goes, Nalyd and I will address pugilism once the actual matchups start, but suffice it to say, Horner won't have to play amateur boxer the way he did for many of his years in Toronto.
In the interest of increasing everyone's knowledge, I've got some more information on Horner's skating. The HHOF says of Horner: "He was not a graceful skater but could move the puck up ice quickly, usually feeding a tape-to-tape pass while having two forecheckers bearing down on him." Now, it appears from this description that Horner was a good passer in transition, but not much of a skater, but that is not true.
This is from Horner's HHOF spotlight:
"We only had four defensemen in those days," Horner continues, moving from discussing the Leafs' forwards to the blueline. "King Clancy and I played together for seven years. Hap Day played on the other pairing with XXX. I was just naturally a heavy hitter. I always was. I wasn't a graceful skater but when I joined the Leafs, Frank Selke told me, 'Red, if you can learn to break fast from the blueline, you'll make this team.' You'd hit somebody and the puck would be at your feet. You had to break fast. I worked at it. Hard. After practice - breaking from the blueline, breaking from the blueline."
Pelletier's site also has a similar comment on
Horner's skating:
His playmaking was very good and although he wasn't a graceful skater he could break as fast as anyone except the true speedballs like King Clancy and Howie Morenz.
Pelletier's site also mentions that Horner wasn't throwing down with designated goons in his fights. Remember that this was an era when true "goons" didn't really exist. Rosters were much smaller (the Leafs had only four defensemen, for example) and fights mostly took place between guys who got top icetime. Here is Pelletier's comment:
Red was a solid 6' and 190 Ibs (some sources suggest he was as big as 6'1" and 200 Ibs), which was an intimidating height and weight back then. He had many hard-fought battles with his opponents throughout the league. His most notable rivalries and battles were with Nels Stewart, Hooley Smith and Bill Cook.
Having a first-pairing defenseman go into the penalty box for fighting John Ferguson is not a way to win games, but if he's going off the ice for one of these guys? Horner is not going to be throwing down with the Bob Probert's of the league. That is a waste of his talents. He'll certainly provide an intimidation factor and deterrance to anyone who wants to take liberties with his teammates while he's on the ice, but it's not as if he can be removed from play by simply sending out a goon - not anymore so than any of the fighters from that era (Seibert, Smith, Stewart, et al).
Finally, I've got a little snippet (courtesy of backcheck) from the
Toronto Star in 1936 about a Cup finals game that the Leafs lost. It says simply:
Horner and Primeau did some grand rushing in this period.
It's not much, but players who can't skate aren't usually described as "rushing" the puck. Horner, however, was a fast skater, however clumsy it may have looked.