Assuming the NHL expands to 36 teams, what will schedule look like?

[Golden_Jet]

Per The Hockey News they would expand to 34 immediately.

Well tbf THN doesn’t know, how expansion will work.
And like I said originally if not going to 36 right away, you need more than one schedule.

 

[BMann]

But will Gary stick at 36 ? What is to say he with more dollars waved under his nose decide 38 is the magic number ?

 

[Skiiiiiiinerrr]

Should really fix the problems that exist before doing this. Mind numbing watching the NHL operate.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

After the WHA was absorbed, storing stayed the same for the first two sesson afterwards.

When the league went from 21 to 30, scoring trended downwards, not upwards

Because goalie equipment was supersized, genius. When the league went from 12 to 23, scoring went way up, before composite sticks came around.

 

[IceManCat]

The talent pool is already diluted so much that it would be a terrible move to go to anything beyond 32 teams.

Its never been as talented as it is now

 

[PistolPete]

Because goalie equipment was supersized, genius. When the league went from 12 to 23, scoring went way up, before composite sticks came around.

It was trending down even before the Garth Snow Michelin man look

And the scoring didn't soar until the third season aster the league expanded to 21 teams. Prior to that the increase was incremental and followed a trend that was already starting before the 1967 expansion. So it may have been expansion or simply a shift in how the game was being coached or a combination of both. After Boiby Orr's debut teams clamoured for the next offensive dynamo from the back end who was going to start the offense from the defense.

Even your composite sticks argument is way too oversimplified. Coaching attitudes changed, the players improved immensely on their ability to roof the puck as a counter to goalies taking the bottom of the net, PP shot up after 2005 and then scoring went down again and then has been up again lately.

To pinpoint one thing as the cause of something so complex as scoring in a game of innumerable events and factors is way too simple-minded

 

[PistolPete]

Its never been as talented as it is now

Should be for all the thousands of dollars spent on coaching lessons for virtually every aspect of the game

The skill level and fitness of today's average player is way above the average player of the past. And the fitness levels of these guys is amazing. I finished reading Rick Vaive'a autobiography recently and it giggled my mind the amount of drinking the players did and that several of them still smoked

 

[IceManCat]

Should be for all the thousands of dollars spent on coaching lessons for virtually every aspect of the game

The skill level and fitness of today's average player is way above the average player of the past. And the fitness levels of these guys is amazing. I finished reading Rick Vaive'a autobiography recently and it giggled my mind the amount of drinking the players did and that several of them still smoked

haha yeah they threw down beers in between periods players have come a long way

 

[PlayersLtd]

The league doesn't care about that. Rhat has always been the argument against expansion and yet here we are at 32 teams from 6.

And really, if you had a league of truly talented, highly skilled players, it'd probably be a league of 4 teams

Sorry to burst your bubble but there was way less talent in the league 30 years ago. You're talking about a generation of hockey that completely forfeited the fourth line in favour of tough guys, third pairing D that could barely skate but were really good at blocking shots or cross checking and back up goalies that had about a 5% chance of one day being starters, not to mention coaching that worshipped dump and chase hockey.

I'm not knocking the game it produced as it was a decent brand of hockey but it's a complete myth that there was more talent in the 80's / 90's. Apologies though if you were talking about the glory years in the 60's 70's when elite players hands were weighed down by 25 pound leather gloves and goalies hadn't yet figured out the butterfly, or going down to make a save in any fashion for that matter.

The talent pool is as deep as ever and it's not even remotely debatable. If there was ever a time to expand it is now, but that in no way, shape or form means it would be the right thing to do.

 

[SharksFan1992]

It seems to be a given that the NHL will expand to 36 teams, so how do people see the structure and schedule?

4 divisions of 9? 6 divisions of 6? 12 divisions of 3?

And will they be able to ensure all teams play each other at least twice? That would account for 70 games right there. If they had a division of 6 it'd add another 10 games but then they only have 80 and need to come up with something for the other 2 games.

And the playoffs- they stick to 16? Go with a play in? Or revert to the 70s and grant a bye for the higher seeded team while allowing 24 teams in?

Or maybe they go completely crazy and revert to the 80s and allow 32 of 36 teams, add a whole other round of best of 3? best of 5? Sports leagues are all about making as much money as possible after all.

How is this a given? It's unlikely the NHL expands to that many teams.

 

[SharksFan1992]

Houston - Central
Austin - Central (Utah pops out to the Pacific)
Toronto 2 - Atlantic
Toronto 3 - Atlantic (two Florida clubs join Metro, Columbus pops up to Atlantic)

Would they actual add teams in Toronto? Probably not, the financial case has long been overwhelming and they haven't done it. But there aren't other viable markets in the East to make this work, maybe QC.

Sadly, Quebec will never happen. The city is too small and most players won't want to play there.

 

[SharksFan1992]

The other leagues will follow suit at some point.

Sorry, more than likely they won't. The NFL and MLB are incredibly conservative on this. They don't even like relocating teams. The NBA has too many teams that can't even compete and some still losing money. Why would they add 6+ more? The NHL will likely want to mirror the other big leagues. There's only so many viable markets and the NHL, especially, is already stretching it with teams in Vegas, Ottawa, and Winnipeg. Relocating struggling teams is more likely.

You could make the argument all the leagues will have 32 teams at some point, but only in dream land would the NHL expand to 36+ teams and the other leagues follow them.

 

[SharksFan1992]

Should really fix the problems that exist before doing this. Mind numbing watching the NHL operate.

Exactly. The NHL expanded to 32 to even out the divisions and match the NFL, but there is no way they go beyond that when Ottawa and Winnipeg aren't exactly booming and Utah and Vegas are unproven long term.

 

[jimmysheva]

6 division, 6 teams each

vs same division: 4 matches x 5 teams = 20 matches
vs diff div. same conf: 2 matches x 12 teams = 24 matches
vs different conf.: 2 matches x 18 teams = 36 matches

Total: 80 matches

 

[PistolPete]

Sorry to burst your bubble but there was way less talent in the league 30 years ago. You're talking about a generation of hockey that completely forfeited the fourth line in favour of tough guys, third pairing D that could barely skate but were really good at blocking shots or cross checking and back up goalies that had about a 5% chance of one day being starters, not to mention coaching that worshipped dump and chase hockey.

I'm not knocking the game it produced as it was a decent brand of hockey but it's a complete myth that there was more talent in the 80's / 90's. Apologies though if you were talking about the glory years in the 60's 70's when elite players hands were weighed down by 25 pound leather gloves and goalies hadn't yet figured out the butterfly, or going down to make a save in any fashion for that matter.

The talent pool is as deep as ever and it's not even remotely debatable. If there was ever a time to expand it is now, but that in no way, shape or form means it would be the right thing to do.

You're preaching to the choir.

What you quoted was a rebuttal to someone complaining about the so-called dilution of talent and lack.

My reference to the four teams max for truly skilled players was referring to the top flight superstars/highly skilled players who can play with style and pizzaz

 

[PistolPete]

How is this a given? It's unlikely the NHL expands to that many teams.

The writing is on the wall.

The league wants Houston, Phoenix, and Atlanta back in the fold.

Bettman has meetings with applicant groups frequently and never shuts down the idea of expansion but talks in terms that make it apparent the league wants to expand

 

[PistolPete]

Sorry, more than likely they won't. The NFL and MLB are incredibly conservative on this. They don't even like relocating teams. The NBA has too many teams that can't even compete and some still losing money. Why would they add 6+ more? The NHL will likely want to mirror the other big leagues. There's only so many viable markets and the NHL, especially, is already stretching it with teams in Vegas, Ottawa, and Winnipeg. Relocating struggling teams is more likely.

You could make the argument all the leagues will have 32 teams at some point, but only in dream land would the NHL expand to 36+ teams and the other leagues follow them.

I would wager the leagues won't stop even at 36. They are a business and businesses exist to expand. They will figure out a scheme to make it feasible.

 

[PistolPete]

Exactly. The NHL expanded to 32 to even out the divisions and match the NFL, but there is no way they go beyond that when Ottawa and Winnipeg aren't exactly booming and Utah and Vegas are unproven long term.

They would just relocate teams who consistently struggle.

However, did you forget Ottawa just got sold for over $1 billion? Does that sound like a struggling franchise in any way? They are on the verge of making a deal with the NAC that will give them a massive real estate deal.

 

[Tawnos]

I would wager the leagues won't stop even at 36. They are a business and businesses exist to expand. They will figure out a scheme to make it feasible.

For the NHL, the issue isn't going to be desire, it's going to be viability. It's really hard to put an NHL and NBA team in markets smaller than 3m. SLC is just under at 2.8m and personally, I question the viability. It's an experiment based on a unique factor of the market (winter sports). Vegas has a similar thing with their entertainment industry.

If we define a large market as being 5m+ and a medium market being 2m+, these are the markets without NHL teams (defined by MSA size, accounting for exceptions where the MSA is split for technical reasons like SLC). Asterisks are the medium markets with NBA teams.

Houston 7.8m
Atlanta 6.4m
Phoenix 5.2m
Riverside/San Bernardino 4.7m (likely considered part of the LA market)
San Diego 3.3m
Orlando 2.9m*
Charlotte 2.9m*
Baltimore 2.9m (likely considered part of the DC market)
San Antonio 2.7m*
Austin 2.6m
Portland 2.5m*
Sacramento 2.5m*
Cincinnati 2.3m
Kansas City 2.3m
Indianapolis 2.2m*
Cleveland 2.2m*

After you expand into the 3 large markets plus 1 more medium, there are really only 3 left that are of a decent size. Maybe 4 if you consider Portland as viable due to their long hockey history. And what happens if the NBA expands to one of them first? Then you're looking at small markets, which are significantly harder to do as expansion teams. The only real way I see to make them viable is to somehow change the economics, given that the salary floor is going to be $90m in a couple of years... and I'm not sure the current league owners would see the value in it.

There's potential in Ontario for another team, but so many roadblocks that I don't see it happening.

Edit to say that wrapped up in the question of viability are the questions of interest and infrastructure. If you expand to 36 and there are only 3-4 more viable markets, what's the guarantee that any or all of them will have the other elements needed? You need an owner/ownership group willing to write a $1B check and an arena, which also is going to come with a huge price tag. It'll be a challenge to have those things in enough markets to continue expanding.

 

[landy]

4 divisions of 9 teams each

Adding KC, HOU, ATL, AZ. Obvioulsy that could shift divisions around if its any other city.

Atlantic
- TOR, TBL, FLA, OTT, MTL, DET, BUF, BOS, CBJ

Metro
- WSH, CAR, NJ, NYR, NYI, PIT, PHI, NSH, ATL

Central
- WIN, DAL, COL, MIN, STL, UT, CHI, HOU, KC

Pacific
- VGK, LA, EDM, CGY, VAN, ANA, SEA, SJ, AZ

35 home/away vs every team = 70 games

Take away preseason games (6-8) or drastically reduce them and have more organized intersquad games where tickets are sold.

Increase season to 86 games

Play your divisional teams 2 more times (home/away) = 16 games

70+16=86

 

[PistolPete]

So I made a post about Saskatchewan not so long ago, add qc and there you have it 34

Debbie Gibson's first hit sounds like a soundtrack to this sentiment

 

[PistolPete]

For the NHL, the issue isn't going to be desire, it's going to be viability. It's really hard to put an NHL and NBA team in markets smaller than 3m. SLC is just under at 2.8m and personally, I question the viability. It's an experiment based on a unique factor of the market (winter sports). Vegas has a similar thing with their entertainment industry.

If we define a large market as being 5m+ and a medium market being 2m+, these are the markets without NHL teams (defined by MSA size, accounting for exceptions where the MSA is split for technical reasons like SLC). Asterisks are the medium markets with NBA teams.

Houston 7.8m
Atlanta 6.4m
Phoenix 5.2m
Riverside/San Bernardino 4.7m (likely considered part of the LA market)
San Diego 3.3m
Orlando 2.9m*
Charlotte 2.9m*
Baltimore 2.9m (likely considered part of the DC market)
San Antonio 2.7m*
Austin 2.6m
Portland 2.5m*
Sacramento 2.5m*
Cincinnati 2.3m
Kansas City 2.3m
Indianapolis 2.2m*
Cleveland 2.2m*

After you expand into the 3 large markets plus 1 more medium, there are really only 3 left that are of a decent size. Maybe 4 if you consider Portland as viable due to their long hockey history. And what happens if the NBA expands to one of them first? Then you're looking at small markets, which are significantly harder to do as expansion teams. The only real way I see to make them viable is to somehow change the economics, given that the salary floor is going to be $90m in a couple of years... and I'm not sure the current league owners would see the value in it.

There's potential in Ontario for another team, but so many roadblocks that I don't see it happening.

Edit to say that wrapped up in the question of viability are the questions of interest and infrastructure. If you expand to 36 and there are only 3-4 more viable markets, what's the guarantee that any or all of them will have the other elements needed? You need an owner/ownership group willing to write a $1B check and an arena, which also is going to come with a huge price tag. It'll be a challenge to have those things in enough markets to continue expanding.

I think the wild card in all of this the fact that sports has gone the McDonald's/Ray Kroc route of being the initial purpose of the business in the background to the more prominent purpose of using it as basis for real estate.

Andlauer just spent over $1 billion for the Senators and the foremost reason is the likelihood to make a deal with the NAC to redevelop LeBreton Flats

 

[PistolPete]

4 divisions of 9 teams each

Adding KC, HOU, ATL, AZ. Obvioulsy that could shift divisions around if its any other city.

Atlantic
- TOR, TBL, FLA, OTT, MTL, DET, BUF, BOS, CBJ

Metro
- WSH, CAR, NJ, NYR, NYI, PIT, PHI, NSH, ATL

Central
- WIN, DAL, COL, MIN, STL, UT, CHI, HOU, KC

Pacific
- VGK, LA, EDM, CGY, VAN, ANA, SEA, SJ, AZ

35 home/away vs every team = 70 games

Take away preseason games (6-8)

Increase season to 86 games

Play your divisional teams 2 more times (home/away) = 16 games

70+16=86

Wow. That's ambitious.

No breaks for the players then?

What about fatigue? Can't really compare a preseason game to a regular game since the main roster hardly plays during the preseason and they certainly don't go all out for those games

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Per The Hockey News they would expand to 34 immediately.

I would think if everything is in order they'd then go straight to 36 a couple of seasons later

? Not getting the implicit point you're attempting to make

You can't just expand to 34 without having 2 willing buyers and viable markets...

 

[Golden_Jet]

I think the wild card in all of this the fact that sports has gone the McDonald's/Ray Kroc route of being the initial purpose of the business in the background to the more prominent purpose of using it as basis for real estate.

Andlauer just spent over $1 billion for the Senators and the foremost reason is the likelihood to make a deal with the NAC to redevelop LeBreton Flats

The Sens will get 10 acres, when approved, of about the 70 acres at LBF. Which the arena will take up about 7 acres.