Are Zetterberg/Alfreddsson Hall of Famers?

[Admiral Awesome]

Based on some of the recent inductees, both will likely get in at some point.

With that said, I personally don’t think they (along with some of the recent inductees) should be in.

 

[trentmccleary]

Zetterberg is one of the best two way players of his generation, and one of the best playoff performers of his generation. A top 5ish player in the league at his best. Has a Conn Smythe, and an impressive international resume as well. Hes worn a letter for one of the best hockey nations in the world multiple times including being named captain of the Olympic team. He was the captain of one of the most storied NHL franchises and an original 6 team.

Zetterberg has a better case than Alfredsson or Hossa who was just inducted first time eligible.

Zetterberg has terrible numbers at the Olympics, especially compared to Hossa and Alfredsson, who killed it.

Olympics	GP	G	Pts	GPG	PPG
Hossa	19	14	28	0.74	1.47
Alfredsson	26	13	27	0.50	1.04
Datsyuk	23	5	20	0.22	0.87
Iginla	19	10	14	0.53	0.74
Elias	13	3	7	0.23	0.54
Zetterberg	17	5	9	0.29	0.53
St.Louis	11	2	3	0.18	0.27

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

In terms of playoff series;
Zetterberg destroyed a few series and was consistent otherwise.
Alfredsson was consistent, but didn't have those huge playoff series'.
Hossa had some huge playoff series, but was very inconsistent. He had a lot of bad series.

Player	GP	G	A	Pts	GPG	PPG	.5 GPG	1.00 PPG	Series	1.20+	1.00-1.19	.67-.86	.4-.6	0.40<	>1.00 %	<0.60 %
Zetterberg	137	57	63	120	0.42	0.88	4	6	24	4	7	5	5	3	0.458	0.333
St.Louis	107	42	48	90	0.39	0.84	4	4	18	4	4	4	4	2	0.444	0.333
Iginla	81	37	31	68	0.46	0.84	5	3	14	2	3	6	2	1	0.357	0.214
Alfie	124	51	49	100	0.41	0.81	5	6	24	6	5	6	3	4	0.458	0.292
Elias	162	45	80	125	0.28	0.77	3	5	29	3	7	9	3	7	0.345	0.345
Hossa	205	52	97	149	0.25	0.73	1	1	37	5	6	10	10	6	0.297	0.432
Datsyuk	157	42	71	113	0.27	0.72	2	4	29	3	7	6	7	6	0.345	0.448

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I think they are both borderline.

I think they are both not really HHOF material. You can argue that Alfredsson was the face of the Senators, but that's not really relevant to why he should be inducted. Zetterberg has a stronger case because of the cup run + Conn Smythe but I think he's still a stretch. However, I also think that the HHOF should be more selective.

Roughly 1.5 forwards are inducted into the HHOF per year. These are the 21 highest scoring players drafted in the 10 drafts between 1991-2000. Try to induct 15 of these forwards without inducting Alfredsson and Zetterberg.

10 best season averages, sorted by PPG:

Player	GP	G	A	Pts	GPG	PPG
Forsberg	67	24	61	85	0.37	1.28
Lindros	67	36	46	82	0.54	1.22
Thornton	79	26	65	91	0.33	1.16
Kariya	78	33	51	84	0.42	1.08
Alfredsson	73	30	48	78	0.41	1.07
St. Louis	81	31	55	86	0.39	1.06
Datsyuk	74	27	51	78	0.36	1.05
Iginla	80	39	42	81	0.49	1.02
Hossa	75	34	41	75	0.45	1.00
Zetterberg	73	27	46	73	0.37	1.00
H.Sedin	81	17	63	80	0.21	0.99
D.Sedin	79	29	49	78	0.37	0.99
Elias	71	27	41	68	0.39	0.97
Lecavalier	78	32	42	74	0.41	0.95
B.Richards	77	22	50	72	0.29	0.93
Naslund	80	33	40	73	0.41	0.92
Whitney	74	25	43	68	0.34	0.92
Kovalev	77	29	40	69	0.38	0.91
Arnott	70	27	35	62	0.38	0.88
Marleau	81	32	37	69	0.40	0.86
Doan	78	25	37	62	0.32	0.80

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It's a tough choice. Perhaps he should be in but he really doesn't have any accomplishments besides the OG. He scored 100 points but he was also playing with Heatley and Spezza who scored the same amount of points.

NHL search: 5 year period, minimum 50% GP (205gp/410), NHL rank in points per game
2005-2010 = 6th Alfredsson, EPGC% = 59% (moderately high)
1999-2004 = 9th Alfredsson, EPGC% = 24% (basically power play only level)

Alfredsson was an elite producer without Spezza and Heatley.

EPGC% = elite player goal collaborations (points scored with Yashin, Hossa, Spezza, Heatley)

Even though I'm a hypocrite myself and use the "if he's in then why isn't he" argument, I still think it's not the best argument. I think Zetterberg is a better choice then Alfredsson because he did everything Alfredsson did but won a cup and was the MVP during that cup run. I personally think Zetterberg's odd are hurt by the fact that he didn't really play that many games. If he had 20 seasons and played 1300-1400 games, he's 100% lock imo.

Zetterberg's odds are hurt because the HHOF committee clearly focuses on raw stats and they like round numbers. 960 points is a little short of that big round number they like.

Zetterberg didn't come close to doing everything Alfredsson did, plus.

To match Alfredsson's career numbers, he'd have to come and post two straight 82-54-45-99 point seasons.

NHL Ranks	G	Pts	GPG	PPG	T-10's
Alfredsson	9,9,9	4,7,9	7,10	3,4,9	11
Zetterberg	5	6,8	5	5	5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

What about being 5th in the NHL in points over his 19 years in the league.
Behind Jagr,Selanne, Thornton and Iginla.

That's a little cherry picked. More importantly, Alfredsson was 3rd in scoring from 2000-2010. How can the HHOF tell the story of the 2000's without the 3rd leading scorer and captain of one of the NHL's best teams?

I mean I'm not saying that it's a bad inductee, I'm just saying it's border line. What hurt him was during his prime years 05-08, he missed games every year, a total of 22 games. Maybe he's a runner up for the Hart or wins a possible Selke if he doesn't miss games. He unfortunately didn't get into the league until he was older as well. Although he did play very well until he was pretty old which is pretty impressive. I'm not against it, it's just his overall accomplishments don't scream lock for HHOF.

Here are some things that hurt Alfredsson:
He outscored the 2nd All Star RW four other times, beyond the time he was voted 2nd AST. In 3 of those cases, he was easily better defensively than the player who won too and the 4th is debatable. Including the highway robbery of giving it to Kovalev in 2008.
He barely missed out on the Lady Byng in 2004.
He was leading the league in scoring at the 2008 all star break, before getting hurt and missing 12 games.
He missed 25 games in 2000. He had a higher PPG than Tony Amonte, who finished 6th in scoring.
He had 8 PPG seasons, but only four 80 point seasons.

Edit: repaired calculations at the end of the playoff table.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I think the fact that Zetterberg wasn't even the best two way player on his team at the time should be considered too though

I think the fact that the best two way player on his team (and even this is arguable that Zetterberg wasn't better as a two way player) is one of the very best in the history of the league at it means that you shouldn't consider it a negative that he was no. 2 (which, as I stated, is actually pretty arguable that Datsyuk is a better two way player than Zetterberg). When the Wings needed to shut down an opponent's top line in 08 and 09... they didn't put Datsyuk on him. They put Zetterberg. The Wings probably knock off the Hawks in 2013 if the Wings don't inexplicably go away from the all out Zetterberg on the Toews line plan.

I mean, Steve Young was a backup for several years. Does that mean he's not one of the best QBs in NFL history? Dominik Hasek was the third string goalie in Chicago and got traded for not a whole lot to Buffalo. Does that mean that Belfour and the other guy were better or that him being 3rd string was a black mark for him? How about Evgeni Malkin being a 2C? I mean, he wasn't even a top line guy, so how could he possibly be an MVP candidate.

 

[StonebeatsMcdavid]

Zetterberg has terrible numbers at the Olympics, especially compared to Hossa and Alfredsson, who killed it.

Olympics	GP	G	Pts	GPG	PPG
Hossa	19	14	28	0.74	1.47
Alfredsson	26	13	27	0.50	1.04
Datsyuk	23	5	20	0.22	0.87
Iginla	19	10	14	0.53	0.74
Elias	13	3	7	0.23	0.54
Zetterberg	17	5	9	0.29	0.53
St.Louis	11	2	3	0.18	0.27

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

In terms of playoff series;
Zetterberg destroyed a few series and was consistent otherwise.
Alfredsson was consistent, but didn't have those huge playoff series'.
Hossa had some huge playoff series, but was very inconsistent. He had a lot of bad series.

Player	GP	G	A	Pts	GPG	PPG	.5 GPG	1.00 PPG	Series	1.20+	1.00-1.19	.67-.86	.4-.6	0.40<	>1.00 %	<0.60 %
Zetterberg	137	57	63	120	0.42	0.88	4	6	24	4	7	5	5	3	0.345	0.345
St.Louis	107	42	48	90	0.39	0.84	4	4	18	4	4	4	4	2	0.345	0.448
Iginla	81	37	31	68	0.46	0.84	5	3	14	2	3	6	2	1	0.320	0.440
Alfie	124	51	49	100	0.41	0.81	5	6	24	6	5	6	3	4	0.308	0.385
Elias	162	45	80	125	0.28	0.77	3	5	29	3	7	9	3	7	0.297	0.432
Hossa	205	52	97	149	0.25	0.73	1	1	37	5	6	10	10	6	0.290	0.387
Datsyuk	157	42	71	113	0.27	0.72	2	4	29	3	7	6	7	6	0.278	0.444

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Roughly 1.5 forwards are inducted into the HHOF per year. These are the 21 highest scoring players drafted in the 10 drafts between 1991-2000. Try to induct 15 of these forwards without inducting Alfredsson and Zetterberg.

10 best season averages, sorted by PPG:

Player	GP	G	A	Pts	GPG	PPG
Forsberg	67	24	61	85	0.37	1.28
Lindros	67	36	46	82	0.54	1.22
Thornton	79	26	65	91	0.33	1.16
Kariya	78	33	51	84	0.42	1.08
Alfredsson	73	30	48	78	0.41	1.07
St. Louis	81	31	55	86	0.39	1.06
Datsyuk	74	27	51	78	0.36	1.05
Iginla	80	39	42	81	0.49	1.02
Hossa	75	34	41	75	0.45	1.00
Zetterberg	73	27	46	73	0.37	1.00
H.Sedin	81	17	63	80	0.21	0.99
D.Sedin	79	29	49	78	0.37	0.99
Elias	71	27	41	68	0.39	0.97
Lecavalier	78	32	42	74	0.41	0.95
B.Richards	77	22	50	72	0.29	0.93
Naslund	80	33	40	73	0.41	0.92
Whitney	74	25	43	68	0.34	0.92
Kovalev	77	29	40	69	0.38	0.91
Arnott	70	27	35	62	0.38	0.88
Marleau	81	32	37	69	0.40	0.86
Doan	78	25	37	62	0.32	0.80

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

NHL search: 5 year period, minimum 50% GP (205gp/410), NHL rank in points per game
2005-2010 = 6th Alfredsson, EPGC% = 59% (moderately high)
1999-2004 = 9th Alfredsson, EPGC% = 24% (basically power play only level)

Alfredsson was an elite producer without Spezza and Heatley.

EPGC% = elite player goal collaborations (points scored with Yashin, Hossa, Spezza, Heatley)



Zetterberg's odds are hurt because the HHOF committee clearly focuses on raw stats and they like round numbers. 960 points is a little short of that big round number they like.

Zetterberg didn't come close to doing everything Alfredsson did, plus.

To match Alfredsson's career numbers, he'd have to come and post two straight 82-54-45-99 point seasons.

NHL Ranks	G	Pts	GPG	PPG	T-10's
Alfredsson	9,9,9	4,7,9	7,10	3,4,9	11
Zetterberg	5	6,8	5	5	5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That's a little cherry picked. More importantly, Alfredsson was 3rd in scoring from 2000-2010. How can the HHOF tell the story of the 2000's without the 3rd leading scorer and captain of one of the NHL's best teams?



Here are some things that hurt Alfredsson:
He outscored the 2nd All Star RW four other times, beyond the time he was voted 2nd AST. In 3 of those cases, he was easily better defensively than the player who won too and the 4th is debatable. Including the highway robbery of giving it to Kovalev in 2008.
He barely missed out on the Lady Byng in 2004.
He was leading the league in scoring at the 2008 all star break, before getting hurt and missing 12 games.
He missed 25 games in 2000. He had a higher PPG than Tony Amonte, who finished 6th in scoring.
He had 8 PPG seasons, but only four 80 point seasons.

I mean I can't but the HHOF is based on merit not a need to fulfill a quota. If there are no worthy inductees, then there shouldn't be any inductees.

I am not debating that Zetterberg or Alfredsson are not HHOF talents, just don't think their careers reached their potential. I mentioned that Zetterberg missed 22 games from 05-08 and that had he not missed a game, he could have possibly gotten some hardware. I just think it's hard to induct a sub ppg player, with no hardware and no cups.

 

[StonebeatsMcdavid]

I think the fact that the best two way player on his team (and even this is arguable that Zetterberg wasn't better as a two way player) is one of the very best in the history of the league at it means that you shouldn't consider it a negative that he was no. 2 (which, as I stated, is actually pretty arguable that Datsyuk is a better two way player than Zetterberg). When the Wings needed to shut down an opponent's top line in 08 and 09... they didn't put Datsyuk on him. They put Zetterberg. The Wings probably knock off the Hawks in 2013 if the Wings don't inexplicably go away from the all out Zetterberg on the Toews line plan.

I mean, Steve Young was a backup for several years. Does that mean he's not one of the best QBs in NFL history? Dominik Hasek was the third string goalie in Chicago and got traded for not a whole lot to Buffalo. Does that mean that Belfour and the other guy were better or that him being 3rd string was a black mark for him? How about Evgeni Malkin being a 2C? I mean, he wasn't even a top line guy, so how could he possibly be an MVP candidate.

Like I said, I can make a case for John Madden being a superior defensive forward to Zetterberg. Steve Young is a football player and has nothing to do with this debate. As for Hasek, he won 2 Hart trophies as a goalie and 6 Vezinas. Zetterberg didn't even win a Selke. Also the Malkin analogy is just not accurate as I explained because he has 1 hart (probably top 3 most dominant seasons in 20 years while Crosby was injured) and 2 runner ups losing to Prime Ovechkin. Zetterberg doesn't even have a runner up Selke nomination which isn't even as impressive as the Hart Trophy. I have said this multiple times that I don't think he doesn't have a case, just that it's border line. You shouldn't bring up Hasek and Malkin as comparable to why Zetterberg should be inducted.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I mean he had 2 top 15, 2 top 10, and 2 top 5 (I think one was 3rd and the other was 4th) votings for the Selke which clearly shows he's a very good defensive forward but that alone isn't enough for HHOF. By comparison, John Madden had a Selke win, 3 2nd place, a 5th place, a 10th place, and a 13 place.

And in his prime he was doing that defensively while also being a PPG C. Get your John Madden nonsense out of here.

Yeah but that's assuming that a 2 way forward is as valuable as a superstar scorer. I find it would be very hard to find anyone that thinks Datsyuk has the same value as Crosby/Lemieux. Also you are ignoring that Zetterberg never won any awards that indicated he was the best defensive player of a season.

An over PPG C who is the best defensive player in the league is more valuable than a superstar scorer.

Sidney Crosby Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Pavel Datsyuk Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Over their careers, they aren't comparable. Datsyuk fell off way too hard to justify that. But Prime Datsyuk with the back to back 97 point seasons WHILE winning the Selke? At their bests, Datsyuk was right there with Crosby or even above. I would say in any given year. Look at 08-09. Crosby beat Datsyuk by 6 points. While playing 134 more minutes. And while Crosby had a good defensive season and Datsyuk was the best of the best.

Lastly, Zetterberg wasn't going to win any Selkes on a team with Datsyuk. He would face an uphill battle to get votes because Datsyuk was so good and so flashy on D. Writers aren't gonna stuff the ballot for a single team if they don't have to. It is also very very easily arguable that Zetterberg should have won the Calder in his rookie season. He was more statisically impressive than Barrett Jackman, but MacInnis had a great year with Jackman who was a tough defensive D.

 

[StonebeatsMcdavid]

And in his prime he was doing that defensively while also being a PPG C. Get your John Madden nonsense out of here.




An over PPG C who is the best defensive player in the league is more valuable than a superstar scorer.

Sidney Crosby Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Pavel Datsyuk Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Over their careers, they aren't comparable. Datsyuk fell off way too hard to justify that. But Prime Datsyuk with the back to back 97 point seasons WHILE winning the Selke? At their bests, Datsyuk was right there with Crosby or even above. I would say in any given year. Look at 08-09. Crosby beat Datsyuk by 6 points. While playing 134 more minutes. And while Crosby had a good defensive season and Datsyuk was the best of the best.

Lastly, Zetterberg wasn't going to win any Selkes on a team with Datsyuk. He would face an uphill battle to get votes because Datsyuk was so good and so flashy on D. Writers aren't gonna stuff the ballot for a single team if they don't have to. It is also very very easily arguable that Zetterberg should have won the Calder in his rookie season. He was more statisically impressive than Barrett Jackman, but MacInnis had a great year with Jackman who was a tough defensive D.

I mean, that's fine if that's what you believe. All that I said was that Zetterberg has a borderline case. Nothing you provided really changes that.

 

[StonebeatsMcdavid]

And in his prime he was doing that defensively while also being a PPG C. Get your John Madden nonsense out of here.




An over PPG C who is the best defensive player in the league is more valuable than a superstar scorer.

Sidney Crosby Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Pavel Datsyuk Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Over their careers, they aren't comparable. Datsyuk fell off way too hard to justify that. But Prime Datsyuk with the back to back 97 point seasons WHILE winning the Selke? At their bests, Datsyuk was right there with Crosby or even above. I would say in any given year. Look at 08-09. Crosby beat Datsyuk by 6 points. While playing 134 more minutes. And while Crosby had a good defensive season and Datsyuk was the best of the best.

Lastly, Zetterberg wasn't going to win any Selkes on a team with Datsyuk. He would face an uphill battle to get votes because Datsyuk was so good and so flashy on D. Writers aren't gonna stuff the ballot for a single team if they don't have to. It is also very very easily arguable that Zetterberg should have won the Calder in his rookie season. He was more statisically impressive than Barrett Jackman, but MacInnis had a great year with Jackman who was a tough defensive D.

Also, not saying that Datsyuk wasn't better that season but Crosby actually paced for 11-12 more points that season not 6 more. They both missed games but if you prorate them to 82 games

 

[trentmccleary]

I mean I can't but the HHOF is based on merit not a need to fulfill a quota. If there are no worthy inductees, then there shouldn't be any inductees.

I am not debating that Zetterberg or Alfredsson are not HHOF talents, just don't think their careers reached their potential. I mentioned that Zetterberg missed 22 games from 05-08 and that had he not missed a game, he could have possibly gotten some hardware. I just think it's hard to induct a sub ppg player, with no hardware and no cups.

What determines worthiness? Because non-generational players make up the bulk of the HHOF. Players get in without any trophies at all, let alone the prestigious ones. And lots of players are being inducted without Cups now that the league is 5 times the size it used to be.

I mentioned before that Alfredsson was the 3rd leading scorer of the 2000's (10 year period). It has been argued that list is arbitrary and perhaps players whose best 10 years didn't line up with an exact decade aren't represented. Here is a rolling list starting with players who began to appear on the top-10 list after the 1967 expansion (the first being Keon). The number beside their name is how of the rolling 10 year top-10 in points lists the players made (HHOF'ers in bold):

17 – Gretzky
12 – Esposito, Dionne, Sakic
11 – Jagr, Francis
10 – Ratelle, Yzerman, Thornton
9 – Clarke, Lafleur, Perreault, Messier, Oates, Iginla
8 – Trottier, Kurri, Lemieux, Recchi, Sundin, Selanne, H.Sedin
7 – Orr, Gilbert, Sittler, Stastny, Coffey, Hawerchuk, Br. Hull, Modano, Alfredsson, St. Louis
6 – Bossy, D.Savard, Turgeon
5 – Federko, Gilmour, Hossa
4 – Cournoyer, Lemaire, McDonald, Goulet, Nicholls, Kariya, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, D.Sedin
3 – Hodge, Barber, Potvin, Middleton, Robitaille, Fleury, Forsberg, Naslund, Heatley, Getzlaf
2 – Keon, R.Martin, Shanahan, Lecavalier, B.Richards, E.Staal
1 - P.Martin, P.Mahovlich, Goring, MacLeish, Lysiak, Maruk, Taylor, B.Smith, Tkachuk, Palffy, Kovalev, Elias

Players you might be surprised to see did not make any list:
Shutt, Andreychuk, Gartner, Nieuwendyk, G.Anderson, Ciccarelli, Fedorov, Mullen, Bure, Lindros, Lafontaine, Gillies, Neely, Gainey, Carbonneau, Roenick, Damphousse, Brind’Amour, Marleau, Whitney, Verbeek, Weight, Mogilny, Bellows, Hunter, Larmer, Propp, Doan, Zetterberg, Muller, Tocchet, Arnott, Thomas, Broten, Spezza, Amonte, Roberts, Bondra, Ferraro, Leclair, Yashin, Hejduk, Tanguay,

This is a measure of sustained elite play that works across eras. Starting at 4 times and above; there are 47 players, 38 have been inducted into the HHOF and 6 of the 9 remaining haven't been eligible yet. Only Alfredsson, Turgeon and Nichols have been eligible.

 

[StonebeatsMcdavid]

What determines worthiness? Because non-generational players make up the bulk of the HHOF. Players get in without any trophies at all, let alone the prestigious ones. And lots of players are being inducted without Cups now that the league is 5 times the size it used to be.

I mentioned before that Alfredsson was the 3rd leading scorer of the 2000's (10 year period). It has been argued that list is arbitrary and perhaps players whose best 10 years didn't line up with an exact decade aren't represented. Here is a rolling list starting with players who began to appear on the top-10 list after the 1967 expansion (the first being Keon). The number beside their name is how of the rolling 10 year top-10 in points lists the players made (HHOF'ers in bold):

17 – Gretzky
12 – Esposito, Dionne, Sakic
11 – Jagr, Francis
10 – Ratelle, Yzerman, Thornton
9 – Clarke, Lafleur, Perreault, Messier, Oates, Iginla
8 – Trottier, Kurri, Lemieux, Recchi, Sundin, Selanne, H.Sedin
7 – Orr, Gilbert, Sittler, Stastny, Coffey, Hawerchuk, Br. Hull, Modano, Alfredsson, St. Louis
6 – Bossy, D.Savard, Turgeon
5 – Federko, Gilmour, Hossa
4 – Cournoyer, Lemaire, McDonald, Goulet, Nicholls, Kariya, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, D.Sedin
3 – Hodge, Barber, Potvin, Middleton, Robitaille, Fleury, Forsberg, Naslund, Heatley, Getzlaf
2 – Keon, R.Martin, Shanahan, Lecavalier, B.Richards, E.Staal
1 - P.Martin, P.Mahovlich, Goring, MacLeish, Lysiak, Maruk, Taylor, B.Smith, Tkachuk, Palffy, Kovalev, Elias

Players you might be surprised to see did not make any list:
Shutt, Andreychuk, Gartner, Nieuwendyk, G.Anderson, Ciccarelli, Fedorov, Mullen, Bure, Lindros, Lafontaine, Gillies, Neely, Gainey, Carbonneau, Roenick, Damphousse, Brind’Amour, Marleau, Whitney, Verbeek, Weight, Mogilny, Bellows, Hunter, Larmer, Propp, Doan, Zetterberg, Muller, Tocchet, Arnott, Thomas, Broten, Spezza, Amonte, Roberts, Bondra, Ferraro, Leclair, Yashin, Hejduk, Tanguay,

This is a measure of sustained elite play that works across eras. Starting at 4 times and above; there are 47 players, 38 have been inducted into the HHOF and 6 of the 9 remaining haven't been eligible yet. Only Alfredsson, Turgeon and Nichols have been eligible.

Being a sub ppg player, who's never won anything, and didn't bring Stanley Cup success to his team doesn't scream HHOF. Especially when you've only scored 1157 points. I'm not saying he doesn't have the talent to be HHOF, and I also admitted that he missed out on some awards and more because of missing games/starting his career late. But the thing is that it is what it is. I think it's borderline because I remember how good of a player he was, but his case is not based on his stats/awards. We can rearrange stats to suit our needs but at the end of the day he only had 3 top 10 finishes in points; 4th, 8th, and 9th.

 

[LevelingSolo]

Yes to both

 

[Samsquanch]

What determines worthiness? Because non-generational players make up the bulk of the HHOF. Players get in without any trophies at all, let alone the prestigious ones. And lots of players are being inducted without Cups now that the league is 5 times the size it used to be.

I mentioned before that Alfredsson was the 3rd leading scorer of the 2000's (10 year period). It has been argued that list is arbitrary and perhaps players whose best 10 years didn't line up with an exact decade aren't represented. Here is a rolling list starting with players who began to appear on the top-10 list after the 1967 expansion (the first being Keon). The number beside their name is how of the rolling 10 year top-10 in points lists the players made (HHOF'ers in bold):

17 – Gretzky
12 – Esposito, Dionne, Sakic
11 – Jagr, Francis
10 – Ratelle, Yzerman, Thornton
9 – Clarke, Lafleur, Perreault, Messier, Oates, Iginla
8 – Trottier, Kurri, Lemieux, Recchi, Sundin, Selanne, H.Sedin
7 – Orr, Gilbert, Sittler, Stastny, Coffey, Hawerchuk, Br. Hull, Modano, Alfredsson, St. Louis
6 – Bossy, D.Savard, Turgeon
5 – Federko, Gilmour, Hossa
4 – Cournoyer, Lemaire, McDonald, Goulet, Nicholls, Kariya, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, D.Sedin
3 – Hodge, Barber, Potvin, Middleton, Robitaille, Fleury, Forsberg, Naslund, Heatley, Getzlaf
2 – Keon, R.Martin, Shanahan, Lecavalier, B.Richards, E.Staal
1 - P.Martin, P.Mahovlich, Goring, MacLeish, Lysiak, Maruk, Taylor, B.Smith, Tkachuk, Palffy, Kovalev, Elias

Players you might be surprised to see did not make any list:
Shutt, Andreychuk, Gartner, Nieuwendyk, G.Anderson, Ciccarelli, Fedorov, Mullen, Bure, Lindros, Lafontaine, Gillies, Neely, Gainey, Carbonneau, Roenick, Damphousse, Brind’Amour, Marleau, Whitney, Verbeek, Weight, Mogilny, Bellows, Hunter, Larmer, Propp, Doan, Zetterberg, Muller, Tocchet, Arnott, Thomas, Broten, Spezza, Amonte, Roberts, Bondra, Ferraro, Leclair, Yashin, Hejduk, Tanguay,

This is a measure of sustained elite play that works across eras. Starting at 4 times and above; there are 47 players, 38 have been inducted into the HHOF and 6 of the 9 remaining haven't been eligible yet. Only Alfredsson, Turgeon and Nichols have been eligible.

Really well thought out post that hits the nail on the head. Alfie should absolutely be in the hall, no question about it.

But even as a die hard Sens fan (my black lab is literally named Alfie), I'll admit that his career was "sneaky" amazing. Nothing just POPS about his career or him as a player at first glance.

And while he was among the elite players in terms of production on many different occasions obviously, his game was just so steady and reliable for so long - and that's what made him so special. He wasnt really flashy for the most part. Just a damn effective and smart hockey player in all 3 zones, a coaches dream, and he was someone that the fans could really get behind and appreciate for what he did both on and off the ice.

But anyways the numbers speak for themselves, and by all indications hes among elite company and deserves a spot in the hall with his peers one day.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Zetterberg didn't put up amazing numbers in the regular seasons, but was VERY good. And he won a cup and a Conn Smyth. So yes, he should get in for that.

Alfredsson never won anything of note. No HOF for him.

So let’s just let everyone in.

 

[Holymakinaw]

So let’s just let everyone in.

I'm pretty sure I said to just let one of them in.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Based on some of the recent inductees, both will likely get in at some point.

With that said, I personally don’t think they (along with some of the recent inductees) should be in.

I agree with you, on both counts. But since Guy Carbonneau is now a HOFer, I voted yes to both Zetterberg and Alfredsson.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Yes to both.

 

[McVespa99]

They were both very good players but nether had that something extra that makes a hall of famer. IMO.
That having been said I think they will both get in.

 

[Beau Knows]

They both get in.

Alfredsson being the face of the a new franchise for such a long time, adds to "fame" aspect of it for sure. He'll never be forgotten in Ottawa and might remain their most iconic player for a long time.

Zetterberg has that aura of being a winner, winning just about every team award possible, the HHOF loves that.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Alfredsson is the all time leading scorer among NHLers for the Swedish Olympic Team. That, combined with his impressive career, should be enough to get him in. The people saying no have a serious ax to grind and should probably just be ignored.

 

[Stuzchuk]

Consider the possibility that Alfredsson is simply not worthy for the HHOF, whereas Sundin was.

Sundin is the highest scoring Swede of all time. Alfie? Several hundred points behind.
Sundin scored way more goals than Alfie in their careers.
Sundin had way more points than Afliie in their careers.
Sundin's top years were better than Alfie's top years.
Sundin captained Team Sweden for 10 years to 4 international gold medals. Alfie played under Mats.
Sundin was voted by the NHL as one of the "greatest 100 players in NHL history", Alfie was not.

It's not some "vendetta" by Leaf fans. Alfie was a good player. Just not a HHOF player.

I willing to bet you my house that Daniel Alfredsson will be in the HHOF within the next 10 years

 

[LarKing]

It’s not crazy hard to get into the HHOF. Both will be in.

 

[Rebels57]

Neither are for me. Both Hall of Very Good. They are in the same class of players from the 90s that didn't make it... Mogilyn, Roenick, Turgeon, Fleury, Brind'Amour, LeClair, etc.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Alfredsson is only in the topic because he's the face of Ottawa for so long...if he played on 4-5 different teams throughout his career he wouldn't be in the conversation.

Zetterberg is borderline for me, but I'm a small room type of a guy so I'd pass on him as well.

They should be in the same tier as Turgeon imo (which is where Hossa should also be). Either one of the best not in or one of the worst in.

 

[NyQuil]

Alfredsson is only in the topic because he's the face of Ottawa for so long...if he played on 4-5 different teams throughout his career he wouldn't be in the conversation.

Zetterberg is borderline for me, but I'm a small room type of a guy so I'd pass on him as well.

They should be in the same tier as Turgeon imo (which is where Hossa should also be). Either one of the best not in or one of the worst in.

If he had, he might have a Cup like Hossa and would automatically be in. (and yes, I see that you would leave Hossa out)

My issue with this "Hall of Very Good" argument is that it's often statistically based and we have a generation of players whose offensive statistics were necessarily limited in an absolute sense compared with the lofty totals of the 1980s and early 1990s.

I don't think enough people apply comparative metrics to see just how good these players were relative to their own peers as well as those who are already in the Hall.

 

[ScaredStreit]

If he had, he might have a Cup like Hossa and would automatically be in. (and yes, I see that you would leave Hossa out)

My issue with this "Hall of Very Good" argument is that it's often statistically based and we have a generation of players whose offensive statistics were necessarily limited in an absolute sense compared with the lofty totals of the 1980s and early 1990s.

I don't think enough people apply comparative metrics to see just how good these players were relative to their own peers as well as those who are already in the Hall.

Alfredsson, Hossa, and Zetterberg were all very good players compared to their peers. They were never really among the best in the league though. Zetterberg was really never the best player on his team, neither was Hossa on several teams he was a part of, and Afredsson was at time.

But what puts them in that upper tier of players? What specifically qualifies them for the hall? I can't come up with much other than consistency at a very good level which shouldn't be enough imo.