Anybody else think we could have seen a more dominant Niedermayer?

[Big Phil]

I don't know what got me to thinking about this, but with the Olympics on the horizon it is safe to say that Niedermayer is in his last tournament. Granted he has had a great career. And with the exception of a few posters, most of us have him pencilled into the HHOF. Anytime I have seen someone go against him it is usually a weak stance.

But after seeing Jay Bouwmeester this last decade and waiting, and waiting and waiting for him to turn into a Norris candidate it got me thinking that maybe Bouwmeester doesn't know how good he could be, and maybe he will never reach a Norris in his life, or even close. So it got me thinking back to Niedermayer. Did he have as good of a career as he could have?

I'll start by saying that I haven't ignored the fact that he is a winner at all levels of hockey. The Stanley Cups, the WJC, the Olympics, the World Cup, the World Championships, the Memorial Cup. Not to mention the Norris and Conn Smythe (most controversial in history)

But I can't help but think he could have been a much better player over his career. I'll start with his youth. It took him a little while I think to become mroe reliable defensively but I always thought with his rushing abilities that he had the star potential. Outside of 1998 (2nd team all-star) he never had an elite season in New Jersey until 2004. That spanned 11 seasons of his career ('92-03) where I always felt we never saw his true potential in Jersey. Debate all you want that it had to do with playing on a team that suffocated his type of style but the truth is outside of 1998 (57 points) between those years he was generally a 35 point d-man. Even for the dead puck era I always thought that was a rather low total for someone who was often considered the best skater in the NHL with more than capable rushing abilities.

Then he had that great playoff in 2003 and followed that up with a Norris in 2004 and a sufficient point total. Then post lockout he excels in Anaheim. He's a first team all-star in 2006, 2007 and arguably could have snagged the Norris from Lidstrom that 2nd year. He wins another Cup in 2007, wins an ever so controversial Conn Smythe and then "retires".

He comes back to Anaheim after a delay in 2007-'08 and is never the same. Even now he has never been the same since 2007. That delay at his age is always something that I felt killed his career. And while everyone of us had seen him play better than in the 2007 playoffs the truth is he would have been served better to carry on that momentum to the next season.

Now Niedermayer is commonly thought to be a weak choice on Team Canada but is there based on his past. He'll do fine I think, but he is far from the player he once was and when I look back on his career I still see a HHOFer but I often wonder what he could have accomplished post 2007 and in the mid '90s-2003 era had he used his offensive talents to a greater extent.

Thoughts?

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[seventieslord]

I have pretty much the same impressions you do, Phil.

The THN top-20 lists at each position came out in the pre-season, and it seemed every season from 1997-2002 Niedermayer was listed somewhere from 7th to 11th among D-men, and every time I remember thinking "really? THAT high?"

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Oddly enough, I think your post actually makes a pretty good case for him NOT being the guaranteed HOFer that many view him as. For the bulk of his career, he simply wasn't that dominant.

I'm a little curious about the Bouwmeester comment. You feel he hasn't lived up to his billing due to him "not knowing how good he could be"? I think he simply is what he is.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I've heard the Bouwmeester/Niedermayer comparison before and I can see it - they have the talent - skating+size to be dominant defensemen in the league, but just can't put it together for whatever reason (Niedermayer until 2003 obviously).

I think the reason is that Niedermayer just wasn't a strong competitor, at least not for a hockey player. You saw it with his "will he retire, won't he retire?" thing. His heart just isn't into it, at least not as much as fierce competitors like Scott Stevens, Lidstrom, or Pronger.

For most of Nieds' time in NJ, he was considered a waste of potential. Prone to playing quite lackadaisical at times, but even when he played lackadaisical, he was still the 2nd or 3rd best dman on the team, so nobody could really do anything. He was still "very good" but always seemed to leave you wanting more.

I do think he's a guy that GMs and people in hockey thought of more highly than fans and possibly the media did, though. After the 2000 Cup, Niedermayer and Arnott both held out. Fans would chant at games, "We want Arnott!" Not a word about Niedermayer. Then they both got signed and Niedermayer got significantly more than Arnott, which took most fans by surprise at the time.

I do wonder how Nieds would have been perceived if he didn't spend the majority of his career playing under the shadow of Scott Stevens. Nieds really put it all together in the 2003 playoffs, when Stevens was playing injured and was obviously on the decline (though still a superstar). It was like Nieds was forced by circumstances to be the Team's #1, and he excelled in the role. It makes me wonder if Nieds might have put it all together earlier if he hadn't been allowed to coast for a decade in Stevens' shadow. On the other hand, if Nieds was a #1 all along and still played as he did in NJ, he would have been criticized a lot more and perhaps it would have ruined his confidence early on.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

when niedermayer was in new jersey, i always wondered, what if san jose had taken him instead of falloon? definitely, he had the rushing ability to be a star in the league, and the offensive ability to put up a lot of points. but there's a big difference between learning how to be an NHL defenseman from scott stevens and slava fetisov, and learning from doug zmolek and rob zettler. the poise niedermayer has the confidence and ability to make big plays at big times, i think a lot of how good he was in those years from the last new jersey cup to the anaheim cup came from being shielded early on behind vets and hall of famers, and coming up with a winning team. the amount of ice he covers defensively, his defensive instincts, who knows if he would have learned any of that if he would have been the best defenseman on his team as a rookie like brian leetch was? (similarly: could lidstrom have become lidstrom if he began his career on a team like the early 90s jets?)

maybe if niedermayer started his career in san jose, he would have ended up having sandis ozolinsh's career. on the other hand, coming out of junior, he certainly looked like he had the talent to be as good as he was in his prime much sooner.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I do think Nieds might surprise everyone in the Olympics, though.

In NJ, even when he coasted through the regular season, he always showed up in the playoffs - maybe not as a superstar, but certainly as a lesser star. In 95, he was the 4th most important player on the team in the playoffs after the big 3 (Stevens, Lemieux, Brodeur), and in 00, he played much better than he had been in the past few regular seasons.

I think he was motivated to give his all his first few seasons in Anaheim because of his brother and his new "superstar" status, then fell back into old habits.

So maybe, he'll play like a star again on the big stage.

 

[Sens Rule]

I think Nieds is a solid star player, but i agree with much of what was said. i really think he was made for the new rules, since the lockout. He is also not as competitive as some other star players.

I look at Alfredsson as a Sens fan. Since the lockout he is even that better of a player. The rules work entirely to his advantage. He was peaking before the lockout too like Niedermeyer but he kept it up better than Niedermeyer since the lockout and has been more effective this season despite being older. They are D and wingers so different but they are actualy quite similar players, at least in the offensive zone. Changing up making plays, slowing it down and ceating offence on the PP.

I think Niedermeyer is a fine HHOFer. he is not near the top of the mark though, and Proner is clearly a lot better all time. Still he has done it. And the HHOF is fair place for Niedermeyer to be.

One thing, the Ducks are atrocious defensively. They gave up so much since their Cuop juggernaut in 07. How Niedermeyer ends upn playing on a stacked team in the Olympics is a better read of his ability. Even in a short Tourny this is a place for niedermeyer to place the emphasis on his career. Who cares if he is a having a bad season by his standards so far if he is a really good player and the Canadians win the gold.

 

[Oilers1*]

This is a really good topic, first of all.

To answer the main question; no, to me, I don't see Niedermayer's career as a disappointment.

I think for a good portion of his early career, people just did not understand the kind of player he was. He had that incredible skating, was a highly touted junior, and, of course, made that huge play in the 1995 SCF, blowing past Paul Coffey himself like he was standing still. People saw all that and thought he should be another Brian Leetch.

I don't know if Niedermayer did not become that player because of the Devils' system or if it simply wasn't his game. That's a debate for another day. But people looked at him and wondered why he wasn't putting up 100 points, and did not really appreciate the things he did do.

He was easy to overlook because Scott Stevens was such a noticeable player but Niedermayer, night after night, was playing mistake-free hockey, skating the puck out, and generally sticking like glue to the opposition because of that crazy-ass skating. It wasn't until Stevens slipped a few notches that people started giving Niedermayer the credit he deserved (kind of like how Lidstrom didn't get noticed in Detroit until Konstantinov had his accident).

I also disagree that he was not a 'competitor'. Niedermayer was always a big game player, and always came up with big plays. I remember a few years ago when the Ducks were playing Calgary in the playoffs and he came out of the penalty box and scored a breakaway goal. It broke Calgary's back, and he made it look so easy. Also, Iginla had 5 goals that series, but I seem to remember that he was goalless when Niedermayer was on the ice (I won't say that as fact, though, because I can't find a source for it now). Every tournament, every playoffs, Niedermayer made those kinds of quiet, clutch plays.

Also, think about this:

1998 Nagano Olympics- No Niedermayer, no Gold.
2002 Salt Lake City- Neidermayer plays, gold.
2006 Turin- No Niedermayer, no gold.
2010 Vancouver- Niedermayers plays, gold. (well, hopefully. . .)

The coaching staff in 2006 admitted that they had no replacement for Niedermayer's ability to skate the puck out of the defensive zone and that was a key in the team falling apart like it.

I think you look at his stats and, yes, there are some underwhelming 35-point seasons in there but, year in and year out, I believe this guy was absolute stud of a player and got everything he could out of his career.

(Also, not to change the subject, but I was thinking about starting a thread about how I felt Chris Pronger was a disappointment. Yes, he's a HOFer but I believe he was the most physically gifted defenseman outside of Orr to have ever player and should be in the conversation as one of the top five blueliners of all-time. Instead, he's not even the best of his generation)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This is a really good topic, first of all.


He was easy to overlook because Scott Stevens was such a noticeable player but Niedermayer, night after night, was playing mistake-free hockey, skating the puck out, and generally sticking like glue to the opposition because of that crazy-ass skating. It wasn't until Stevens slipped a few notches that people started giving Niedermayer the credit he deserved (kind of like how Lidstrom didn't get noticed in Detroit until Konstantinov had his accident).

This part is false. Nieds made lots of mistakes for most of his career in NJ. They tended to be the "brain fart" kind, like his mind wasn't totally in the game. He was generally paired with Ken Daneyko and they worked very well together. Nieds would generally control play with his skating and Daneyko was the steady guy who would usually be able to clear up Niedermayer's "whoops" moments. As I said before, though, they "whoops" moments were much more common in the regular season than the playoffs.

I also disagree that he was not a 'competitor'. Niedermayer was always a big game player, and always came up with big plays. I remember a few years ago when the Ducks were playing Calgary in the playoffs and he came out of the penalty box and scored a breakaway goal. It broke Calgary's back, and he made it look so easy. Also, Iginla had 5 goals that series, but I seem to remember that he was goalless when Niedermayer was on the ice (I won't say that as fact, though, because I can't find a source for it now). Every tournament, every playoffs, Niedermayer made those kinds of quiet, clutch plays.

Again, you are talking about his first few years in Anaheim, when he was a competitor. He wasn't like the for most of his career.

I do agree that he always raised his game in big games, but still not to the level that he did during his short 2003-2007 peak.

Also, think about this:

1998 Nagano Olympics- No Niedermayer, no Gold.
2002 Salt Lake City- Neidermayer plays, gold.
2006 Turin- No Niedermayer, no gold.
2010 Vancouver- Niedermayers plays, gold. (well, hopefully. . .)

The coaching staff in 2006 admitted that they had no replacement for Niedermayer's ability to skate the puck out of the defensive zone and that was a key in the team falling apart like it.

I think you look at his stats and, yes, there are some underwhelming 35-point seasons in there but, year in and year out, I believe this guy was absolute stud of a player and got everything he could out of his career.

Add the 2001 playoffs, when Niedermayer was suffering from PCS due to Tie Domi's cheapshot - many felt the Devils would have won the Cup with a 100% Niedermayer.

(Also, not to change the subject, but I was thinking about starting a thread about how I felt Chris Pronger was a disappointment. Yes, he's a HOFer but I believe he was the most physically gifted defenseman outside of Orr to have ever player and should be in the conversation as one of the top five blueliners of all-time. Instead, he's not even the best of his generation)

Pronger and Niedermayer both. People wonder why there are so few elite dmen now compared to the late 80s and 90s - guys on the Bourque, Chelios, Leetch, Stevens, MacInnis level. I think there were guys with the skills to reach that level - Pronger and Niedermayer in particular - but for some reason, they were never able to put it all together on a consistant basis.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

The Devils had a lot of offensive-minded (or capable) players when Nieds first came up. Nicholls, Broten, Gilmour etc. I think in an up-tempo system and playing 25-27 mins a night, he would have been a consistent 65-75 point player annually for the devils.

I always considered Nieds an extremely calm, smart and opportunistic player. From an offensive standpoint, he was more a Chelios-type than a Leetch or Housely or Coffey.


Either way, he was a heck of a lot better than Tom Kurvers LOL

 

[Dreakmur]

I've never understood how people can watch Neidermayer play and this he plays a smart defensive game.

He consistentlyt makes bad decisions, but his skating allows him to recover.

 

[MS]

It is funny how fan perception of Niedermayer has changed in the last 5-7 years.

When he turned 30 in 2003, anyone suggesting Niedermayer might have a chance at the HHOF would have been laughed at. At that stage of his career, he was considered something of a disappointment - never becoming the 'next Coffey' he was billed as when he broke into the league, and only one really good season (1997-98) where he looked like a top-end defender in the league.

Then he had a great 2003 playoffs and a terrific run of hockey from 03-04 through 06-07 where he was a top-3 defender in the league before regressing again after his temporary retirement. But really, he's only had 3 or 4 elite seasons in his career, and yet a lot of people people seem to think he played at that level for 10-12 years.

I've mentioned before that Niedermayer and Darryl Sydor were pretty much level, career-wise, before the 2003 playoffs. Niedermayer was 30 and Sydor was 31 at the time. Amazing how their careers went in opposite directions after that.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Scott Niedermayer / Jay Bouwmeester

Scott Niedermeyer is one of those players who is a tease. Looking at the skills - physical and mental one sees a first ballot HHOFer. Throughout his career, Scott Niedermeyer has played on winning teams, not as a passenger but as a main contributor. From an early age he mastered the knack of "integrating" a team - simply he integrates his talents into the team collective so that the team performs better than the sum of all its parts.

Net result being that the teams he has played on have won more than their share of games / championships BUT Scott Niedermayer's personal statistics are not as impressive as they could be nor is his individual award portfolio as impressive as it could be. Not a good fantasy league choice but a definite HHOFer.

Jay Bouwmeester is also a tease. The skills - physical and mental make him look like a future HHOFer but throughout his elite career - junior / NHL he has played on weak or average regular season teams. As a result his physical and mental game has stagnated. He never developed the ability to integrate himself into a championship team on a long term basis.

 

[Big Phil]

Jay Bouwmeester is also a tease. The skills - physical and mental make him look like a future HHOFer but throughout his elite career - junior / NHL he has played on weak or average regular season teams. As a result his physical and mental game has stagnated. He never developed the ability to integrate himself into a championship team on a long term basis.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Bouwmeester has never played a playoff game in his life save for the AHL during the NHL lockout (technicality). This includes his stint in Medicine Hat for his junior career. That is insane. Not a playoff game to his name.

For me the reason I did the Nieds/Bouw comparison in the OP is because this is a guy who could be a lot better than he has been. Even in the WJC I watched Bouwmeester and he had a tally of 4 assists in those three tournaments. That's crazy. The way that guy can rush the puck he almost had kind of like a deer in the headlights type of look to him - even then. I see the same thing in the NHL. In 2002 many of us would have predicted a Norris for Bouw by now, or at least being close to one. It was no mistake that he was left off of the Olympics this year. He just isn't good enough - or tries to be good enough - I can't figure out which one it is.

You look at players that have had long, long playoff droughts in their careers and it becomes more of a pattern. Marc Savard, Olli Jokinen etc. Bouwmeester is joining that category now and the common denominator is too hard to ignore. He's 26, not a single playoff game to his name. Eventually you have to ask yourself why.

 

[Stonefly]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Bouwmeester has never played a playoff game in his life save for the AHL during the NHL lockout (technicality). This includes his stint in Medicine Hat for his junior career. That is insane. Not a playoff game to his name.

For me the reason I did the Nieds/Bouw comparison in the OP is because this is a guy who could be a lot better than he has been. Even in the WJC I watched Bouwmeester and he had a tally of 4 assists in those three tournaments. That's crazy. The way that guy can rush the puck he almost had kind of like a deer in the headlights type of look to him - even then. I see the same thing in the NHL. In 2002 many of us would have predicted a Norris for Bouw by now, or at least being close to one. It was no mistake that he was left off of the Olympics this year. He just isn't good enough - or tries to be good enough - I can't figure out which one it is.

You look at players that have had long, long playoff droughts in their careers and it becomes more of a pattern. Marc Savard, Olli Jokinen etc. Bouwmeester is joining that category now and the common denominator is too hard to ignore. He's 26, not a single playoff game to his name. Eventually you have to ask yourself why.

It's quite possible Bouwmeester will not play a playoff game this season as well. But let me assure you, having watched most of the Flames games this season it won't be his fault. Blame the lousy coaching.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Two Basic Skills

Correct me if I am wrong, but Bouwmeester has never played a playoff game in his life save for the AHL during the NHL lockout (technicality). This includes his stint in Medicine Hat for his junior career. That is insane. Not a playoff game to his name.

For me the reason I did the Nieds/Bouw comparison in the OP is because this is a guy who could be a lot better than he has been. Even in the WJC I watched Bouwmeester and he had a tally of 4 assists in those three tournaments. That's crazy. The way that guy can rush the puck he almost had kind of like a deer in the headlights type of look to him - even then. I see the same thing in the NHL. In 2002 many of us would have predicted a Norris for Bouw by now, or at least being close to one. It was no mistake that he was left off of the Olympics this year. He just isn't good enough - or tries to be good enough - I can't figure out which one it is.

You look at players that have had long, long playoff droughts in their careers and it becomes more of a pattern. Marc Savard, Olli Jokinen etc. Bouwmeester is joining that category now and the common denominator is too hard to ignore. He's 26, not a single playoff game to his name. Eventually you have to ask yourself why.

Two basic skills have to be learned by players.

Learning how to integrate a team. From junior, traded from another team, called-up from the minors, players have to have the ability to adapt to what is expected from them on the new team. Teams do not adapt to players.

Learning how to win. Doing what has to be done so that the team plays better than the sum of its parts. Scott Niedermeyer learned very early in New Jersey, as did Scott Stevens once he joined the Devils to focus on their strengths at all times. Both gave up offensive numbers and personal award opportunities in favour of team success.

Jay Bouwmeester is the classic example of a high end talent on woeful teams. You see similar individual talents fairly often on weak Midget AAA teams. Every game they will make a play or move that impresses even the least astute observer but there is no team aspect or purpose to what was done. Attempting make-up plays for beaten teammates that only remove him from the play or trying the two goal offensive plays out of desperation. Trying to correct such habits at the major junior or pro level rarely succeed.

 

[Blades of Glory]

I've never understood how people can watch Neidermayer play and this he plays a smart defensive game.

He consistentlyt makes bad decisions, but his skating allows him to recover.

The fact he can recover is a testament to him. Paul Coffey rarely "recovered", especially at the end of his career. I do remember him being a half-decent skater. Same with the disaster that is Mike Green after jumping up into a rush and failing to score.

 

[Oilers1*]

The man now adds captain of a gold medal-winning Olympic team to his already ridiculously full resume.

The idea that Scott Niedermayer didn't live up to his potential, IMO, just moved into the realm of the absurd.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The man now adds captain of a gold medal-winning Olympic team to his already ridiculously full resume.

The idea that Scott Niedermayer didn't live up to his potential, IMO, just moved into the realm of the absurd.

I don't see why today's result should enhance any perceptions of Niedermayer. It's another thing that looks good on his resume, but he was far from a key component of the team this time around. IMO the book has pretty much been written on Niedermayer's career already, as he is clearly past his prime. He was what he was, and simply hanging around to pad his resume (don't get me wrong he's still effective, just no longer elite) shouldn't add to his greatness. It's clear that his teammate Pronger is now in the same boat. Anything he does from this point on will probably be nothing of consequence enough to enhance his all time ranking.