Confirmed with Link: [ANA/PHI] Cutter Gauthier for Jamie Drysdale and 2025 2nd round pick

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Anaheim4ever

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I repeat myself. I totally believe Gaucher is and was Madden's choice. I have no clue why you see this as a huge mistake of PV. Either Madden runs the draft or he does not. And when you hear the interviews about Gaucher, there is just so much praise in MM judgement together with the information, that he saw him so often because he played his local team in the Q.

But regarding Cutter, Snuggerud and Kulich. What exactly was the reason in your mind that one went 5th overall and the other two 23rd and 28th?

We will be able to judge this in a few years, when we see how this all turns out.
I think its because to him Pat Verbeek is not Bob Murray.
Bob Murray = Jerry DiPoto. Pat Verbeek = Billy Eppler.
I've noticed he has a history of defending and staying loyal to Bob Murray like he does with former Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim GM Jerry Dipoto. Is critical of most moves Verbeek makes just like when Eppler was GM of the Angels. Its a pattern that is starting to become noticeable to me.
 

Hockey Duckie

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I repeat myself. I totally believe Gaucher is and was Madden's choice. I have no clue why you see this as a huge mistake of PV. Either Madden runs the draft or he does not. And when you hear the interviews about Gaucher, there is just so much praise in MM judgement together with the information, that he saw him so often because he played his local team in the Q.

But regarding Cutter, Snuggerud and Kulich. What exactly was the reason in your mind that one went 5th overall and the other two 23rd and 28th?

We will be able to judge this in a few years, when we see how this all turns out.

I don't believe Gaucher was Madden's choice. 2022 was Gaucher at 22nd and 2023 was Myatovic at 33rd. They're both safe, defensive forward picks. Previous picks under Murray, we took big swings and didn't have a height agenda. GM's run the draft. Recall, Verbeek wanted Cutter in 2022, but Cutter was selected before Anaheim's pick. Or are you gonna say that's what Madden wanted?

It's not Cutter v Snuggerud/Kulich. It could be any high scoring prospect. That's where many are hung up on. It's Snuggerud/Kulich vs Gaucher and Verbeek's long term planning. We lose an NHL top-paring RD, NHL RD depth, and a high draft asset b/c Verbeek prioritized a potential shutdown center over a potential top-6 scorer.

I think Cutter's a good get b/c he's a big, speedy, and scoring winger. I'm just upset we unnecessarily lost assets.
 

tomd

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I don't believe Gaucher was Madden's choice. 2022 was Gaucher at 22nd and 2023 was Myatovic at 33rd. They're both safe, defensive forward picks. Previous picks under Murray, we took big swings and didn't have a height agenda. GM's run the draft. Recall, Verbeek wanted Cutter in 2022, but Cutter was selected before Anaheim's pick. Or are you gonna say that's what Madden wanted?

It's not Cutter v Snuggerud/Kulich. It could be any high scoring prospect. That's where many are hung up on. It's Snuggerud/Kulich vs Gaucher and Verbeek's long term planning. We lose an NHL top-paring RD, NHL RD depth, and a high draft asset b/c Verbeek prioritized a potential shutdown center over a potential top-6 scorer.

I think Cutter's a good get b/c he's a big, speedy, and scoring winger. I'm just upset we unnecessarily lost assets.
You make some good points. It looks like poor asset management considering the 22OA pick was their 7th highest in the last 10 years. That is a valuable asset and it was not maximized. That, in turn, has had domino effects.
 

FiveTacos

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. We lose an NHL top-paring RD, NHL RD depth, and a high draft asset b/c Verbeek prioritized a potential shutdown center over a potential top-6 scorer.

You can find a "potential" scorer in just about any round. By that reasoning you should never take a shutdown guy ... After all there's always some skilled midget, or super skilled guy who can't skate, or a guy who has tools but zero vision, etc. even late in the draft who "might" end up a top 6;scorer. They're longshots but if the justification is that you should never pass on potential skill for shutdown talent then that shouldn't just apply in the 1st round, but in every round, right?
 

Deuce22

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If recent drafts have stocked your organization with high skill forwards, but you lack a physical shutdown center, why is it a bad pick to take one? Why do people on this board continue complain that Ducks are soft, then whine when they take someone that addresses that weakness? Verbeek took Gaucher for a reason. If he turns out to be what he was drafted for, it will be an excellent pick.
 
Aug 11, 2011
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If recent drafts have stocked your organization with high skill forwards, but you lack a physical shutdown center, why is it a bad pick to take one? Why do people on this board continue complain that Ducks are soft, then whine when they take someone that addresses that weakness? Verbeek took Gaucher for a reason. If he turns out to be what he was drafted for, it will be an excellent pick.
This can be true at the same time that the correct pick (in that heuristic) has downstream consequences that might make you rethink it in hindsight. If you buy HD's premise (which is also your premise) that the Ducks considered and rejected Snuggerud because they specifically wanted a potential higher end bottom 6 guy, then trading for a similar player soon afterwards does illustrate a cost.

Maybe your philosophy says you can't pregame your picks that way so trades like this one are unfair ways to judge picks, which also seems fair, but that doesn't mean the cost disappears, just that you don't back-rate the pick based on it. But you could, while still accepting that the pick was correct.

I mean I know HD is annoying about this but the underlying theory does work. Although I think HD thinks the pick was wrong on the merits anyway.
 
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Masch78

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Why do we trust in Madden when obviously PV is drafting all the guys by himself?

It doesn't make any sense to judge this trade now. We can when Cutter, Snuggerud and Kulich are in the league (or not).
 

Hockey Duckie

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You can find a "potential" scorer in just about any round. By that reasoning you should never take a shutdown guy ... After all there's always some skilled midget, or super skilled guy who can't skate, or a guy who has tools but zero vision, etc. even late in the draft who "might" end up a top 6;scorer. They're longshots but if the justification is that you should never pass on potential skill for shutdown talent then that shouldn't just apply in the 1st round, but in every round, right?

No. The talent level drops. There are some drafts that you can find high end scoring in the 20s, but usually they dry up earlier than the 20s. Here's a chart from "What's an NHL draft pick worth?" It uses a 200 NHL game threshold for its measure of success. One has to be talented enough to get to 200 NHL games.

What is an NHL draft pick worth (graph and table).png


One can find shutdown centers beyond the first round on many drafts. There are some drafts where there's a dearth of scoring forwards such as the 2018 draft where the Ducks drafted Lundestrom at 23rd overall.

Your example of finding top-6 scoring guys in any round isn't a normal occurrence, which is why they're called gems.

My specific scenario of the 2022 draft with Snuggerud (and Kulich) come with a higher probability of success as a top-6 scorer than your gems.

Central Scouting 2022 Final Rankings (NA)
3. LW Cutter: 6'2 and 189 lbs
11. RW Snugger: 6'1 and 186 lbs
16. C Gaucher: 6'3 and 207 lbs

Central Scouting 2022 Final Rankings (EU)
13. C Kulich: 6'0 and 172 lbs

MyNHLdraft 2022 Mock draft
5. C/LW Cutter
16. RW Snuggerud
18. C Kulich
31. C Gaucher

I'm not pulling ideas out of thin air nor am I expecting every round to be equal, which is what you're implying. We got studies and scouting agencies the refute the latter, which is your idea.

In a vacuum, drafting Gaucher isn't bad. He was one of the safest picks in the draft, but that comes with the price of not having a much higher ceiling.

With trading away RD Drysdale and a 2025 second round pick because we're lacking goal scorers in our system, the Gaucher pick is now bad because it's no longer a vacuum pick.
 

Deuce22

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This can be true at the same time that the correct pick (in that heuristic) has downstream consequences that might make you rethink it in hindsight. If you buy HD's premise (which is also your premise) that the Ducks considered and rejected Snuggerud because they specifically wanted a potential higher end bottom 6 guy, then trading for a similar player soon afterwards does illustrate a cost.

Maybe your philosophy says you can't pregame your picks that way so trades like this one are unfair ways to judge picks, which also seems fair, but that doesn't mean the cost disappears, just that you don't back-rate the pick based on it. But you could, while still accepting that the pick was correct.

I mean I know HD is annoying about this but the underlying theory does work. Although I think HD thinks the pick was wrong on the merits anyway.
I think the trade of Drysdale was just as much about not being able to ice him and Zellweger on the same D corps as it was about addressing a need for a scoring winger. With LaCombe, Mintyukov, and Luneau also offensively gifted, Ducks weren't going to go with 5 offensive D. Someone had to go. Drysdale was able to get you Gauthier, so he was the one. Where I differ with HD is that I don't think the trade was a reaction to not drafting an offensive winger the year before. I think Verbeek would have done it even if Snuggerud/Kulich had been taken over Gaucher. They liked Gauthier, and when he became available, Verbeek pounced.
 
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Aug 11, 2011
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I think the trade of Drysdale was just as much about not being able to ice him and Zellweger on the same D corps as it was about addressing a need for a scoring winger. With LaCombe, Mintyukov, and Luneau also offensively gifted, Ducks weren't going to go with 5 offensive D. Someone had to go. Drysdale was able to get you Gauthier, so he was the one. Where I differ with HD is that I don't this trade was a reaction to not drafting an offensive winger the year before. I think Verbeek would have done it even if Snuggerud/Kulich had been taken over Gaucher. They liked Gauthier, and when he became available, Verbeek pounced.
Personally I'm fine with the Gaucher pick because I agree we need good role players. I think reasonable minds can disagree on whether Zellweger made JD expendable - I think he's years away from being able a top pairing role, if ever - or that we were in a position to really worry about a glut of a certain kind of defenseman. JD was a 2/3 tweener with a #1 ceiling, whereas the others are all question marks. Although didn't PV say somewhere that Luneau made the decision easier? Or was that someone's interpretation?

So to me that actually sort of cuts against the trade being a good one overall. The worse possible view of the trade is that we traded a relatively sure thing knowing that he'll be replaced by question marks, for a guy who's similar to one we could have drafted a minute ago, and threw in a 2nd rounder because that was the market, and because of the age/experience difference, the trade moves our right-now window out a couple years.

Not saying that's my view, because I like Gaucher and I'm waiting to see what Gauthier brings, even though I was pretty fond of JD. I'm just not willing to discount that worst-case view yet.
 

Hockey Duckie

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Why do we trust in Madden when obviously PV is drafting all the guys by himself?

I don't think you understand how management works. Your underlings present all the information, probably in tiers. The head guy does scouting too, but usually in the top-3 rounds. Then the head guy gets to chose out of those bunch unless the head guy has a preference for a specific player. The later rounds, maybe the head guy lets your underlings make a pick such as Josh Manson in the 6th round of the 2011 draft.

I don't understand why you can't accept actual drafting pattern differences between the GMs as proof, which is far more substantial than "feeling" that it's a Madden pick.

It doesn't make any sense to judge this trade now. We can when Cutter, Snuggerud and Kulich are in the league (or not).

I don't think you comprehend my contention.

  • I'm not judging the trade.
    • The trade for a top-6 scorer because we're missing scoring in our system and in the NHL is a good practice of filling holes that need to be fulfilled.
    • The trade for Cutter, who is finishing his second season in the NCAA, is an even better trade practice because he's most likely NHL-ready and NHL-bound next season.
    • If our GM is set on trading Rico at this TDL, then acquiring a potential top-6 scorer next season is of great import.

  • I'm criticizing why we were forced to make the trade and its collateral problems.
    • This could have been avoided if we addressed top-6 scoring over a shutdown C, which is the GM's job to project long term future of the franchise.
    • We lose a young, top pairing RD with years of experience in the NHL instead of prospect D not named Mintyukov.
    • Luneau will be breaking in next year as a rookie as our RD1... oh here we go again. And he'll probably hit the rookie wall like LaCombe and Minty by game 25 - 30.
    • We lose youth depth at RD.
      • Helleson isn't ready for the NHL full time.
      • Warren is years away.
      • We have no idea what's going on with Moore since he's been injured this season and he's still a junior at Harvard.
      • Is Verbeek willing to allow LD's Zellweger or Hinds to train and stay at RD in the AHL to make up the loss of RD depth?
    • We lose a 2nd round pick.
    • We are probably pigeon-holed on drafting a RD with our first pick in the first round, which is far more specific than drafting a top-6 scoring forward.
 

CrazyDuck4u

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The more I watch his highlights.. The more I see a Rick Nash player in him.. He will be a good one..
 

Deuce22

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Personally I'm fine with the Gaucher pick because I agree we need good role players. I think reasonable minds can disagree on whether Zellweger made JD expendable - I think he's years away from being able a top pairing role, if ever - or that we were in a position to really worry about a glut of a certain kind of defenseman. JD was a 2/3 tweener with a #1 ceiling, whereas the others are all question marks. Although didn't PV say somewhere that Luneau made the decision easier? Or was that someone's interpretation?

So to me that actually sort of cuts against the trade being a good one overall. The worse possible view of the trade is that we traded a relatively sure thing knowing that he'll be replaced by question marks, for a guy who's similar to one we could have drafted a minute ago, and threw in a 2nd rounder because that was the market, and because of the age/experience difference, the trade moves our right-now window out a couple years.

Not saying that's my view, because I like Gaucher and I'm waiting to see what Gauthier brings, even though I was pretty fond of JD. I'm just not willing to discount that worst-case view yet.
Good point. I tend to not want to look at building a team from the "be safe" standpoint. I think cups go to the bold, not those who are risk averse. Drysdale was definitely more proven than Gauthier or any of the other young D. I've seen enough of LaCombe and Mintyukov to feel that they are NHL fixtures, I see Mintyukov as a #1 in a couple of years. Luneau had flashes where I could see him being a bigger, slower version of Drysdale with better offensive instincts. I have given Verbeek more rope than others simply because I was sick of Murray and want him to succeed. Appreciate your vibe of questioning narratives as it makes me think and isn't boring.
 

Deuce22

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I don't think you understand how management works. Your underlings present all the information, probably in tiers. The head guy does scouting too, but usually in the top-3 rounds. Then the head guy gets to chose out of those bunch unless the head guy has a preference for a specific player. The later rounds, maybe the head guy lets your underlings make a pick such as Josh Manson in the 6th round of the 2011 draft.

I don't understand why you can't accept actual drafting pattern differences between the GMs as proof, which is far more substantial than "feeling" that it's a Madden pick.



I don't think you comprehend my contention.

  • I'm not judging the trade.
    • The trade for a top-6 scorer because we're missing scoring in our system and in the NHL is a good practice of filling holes that need to be fulfilled.
    • The trade for Cutter, who is finishing his second season in the NCAA, is an even better trade practice because he's most likely NHL-ready and NHL-bound next season.
    • If our GM is set on trading Rico at this TDL, then acquiring a potential top-6 scorer next season is of great import.

  • I'm criticizing why we were forced to make the trade and its collateral problems.
    • This could have been avoided if we addressed top-6 scoring over a shutdown C, which is the GM's job to project long term future of the franchise.
    • We lose a young, top pairing RD with years of experience in the NHL instead of prospect D not named Mintyukov.
    • Luneau will be breaking in next year as a rookie as our RD1... oh here we go again. And he'll probably hit the rookie wall like LaCombe and Minty by game 25 - 30.
    • We lose youth depth at RD.
      • Helleson isn't ready for the NHL full time.
      • Warren is years away.
      • We have no idea what's going on with Moore since he's been injured this season and he's still a junior at Harvard.
      • Is Verbeek willing to allow LD's Zellweger or Hinds to train and stay at RD in the AHL to make up the loss of RD depth?
    • We lose a 2nd round pick.
    • We are probably pigeon-holed on drafting a RD with our first pick in the first round, which is far more specific than drafting a top-6 scoring forward.
-We weren't "forced" to make this trade. Verbeek chose to.
-Perhaps Ducks will trade for a RHD in the offseason so Luneau won't have to play that high in the lineup.
-Could have traded Zellweger instead to maintain the R/L D balance, but would not have been able to acquire anyone close to Gauthier.
 

FiveTacos

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One can find shutdown centers beyond the first round on many drafts. There are some drafts where there's a dearth of scoring forwards such as the 2018 draft where the Ducks drafted Lundestrom at 23rd overall.

Your example of finding top-6 scoring guys in any round isn't a normal occurrence, which is why they're called gems.

OTOH you can find checking line types cheap outside of the draft and they're not typically too expensive either via trade or free agency compared to scorers. If the thinking is that a pick that could have been used on a potential scoring line player is wasted if it's used on a projected non-scoring line guy, then why not play the lotto throughout the draft?

My specific scenario of the 2022 draft with Snuggerud (and Kulich) come with a higher probability of success as a top-6 scorer than your gems.

Of course, but then if they were significantly higher probability than they are they would have gone in the top 10.
 
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FiveHoleTickler

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The worse possible view of the trade is that we traded a relatively sure thing knowing that he'll be replaced by question marks, for a guy who's similar to one we could have drafted a minute ago, and threw in a 2nd rounder because that was the market, and because of the age/experience difference, the trade moves our right-now window out a couple years.
Other than the part about the possibility of drafting one a minute ago, that's essentially how I view it until Cutter can prove otherwise. As we've seen, late first round picks are a crapshoot. Snuggerud/Kulich were my preference at the time, but I'm more than fine with Gaucher and think he'll work out well.

I'm not going to cry over spilled milk if Drysdale reaches his #1 ceiling in Philly because that has no affect on my view of the trade. If he does, good for him. However, if Cutter significantly underperforms or doesn't pan out and the RHD remains a hole in the roster then I can't say I'd be surprised. That possibility is very real and one I think has been glossed over on this board. People seem to think the RHD hole can be easily addressed and I'm really not convinced it can. RHD don't exactly grow on trees and right now all we have is one big question mark with Luneau, an outside shot with Warren, and that's pretty much it.

Alternatively, the homerun scenario would be Cutter and Luneau hit the ground running next year and look like top line/pairing players. I just don't know how likely that is as opposed to the former scenario.
 

JAHV

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Other than the part about the possibility of drafting one a minute ago, that's essentially how I view it until Cutter can prove otherwise. As we've seen, late first round picks are a crapshoot. Snuggerud/Kulich were my preference at the time, but I'm more than fine with Gaucher and think he'll work out well.

I'm not going to cry over spilled milk if Drysdale reaches his #1 ceiling in Philly because that has no affect on my view of the trade. If he does, good for him. However, if Cutter significantly underperforms or doesn't pan out and the RHD remains a hole in the roster then I can't say I'd be surprised. That possibility is very real and one I think has been glossed over on this board. People seem to think the RHD hole can be easily addressed and I'm really not convinced it can. RHD don't exactly grow on trees and right now all we have is one big question mark with Luneau, an outside shot with Warren, and that's pretty much it.

Alternatively, the homerun scenario would be Cutter and Luneau hit the ground running next year and look like top line/pairing players. I just don't know how likely that is as opposed to the former scenario.

The reason I'm so high on this trade is because I don't really see any of these issues as negatively affecting the trade value.

First, I don't see Drysdale as having a #1D ceiling. I don't see a path for him to get there. A #1D has to either be very good at everything (a la Pietrangelo, Fox, or Hedman) or be elite at a couple things and at least passable at everything else (like Makar or prime Karlsson). Maybe Drysdale has elite skating, and he's got very good hockey sense, but none of his other skills are much better than average. Some of them are still developing, but he doesn't project to have a good shot, or be a good creator, or be a good penalty killer. I think he can be a fine #2 on a playoff team, but I don't see the route to anything higher.

Second, the Ducks were going to have to do something about RD regardless of whether Drysdale stayed. They need physical defenders to play alongside their PMDs, who are mostly left side guys. Lyubushkin is not good enough to cut it, at least not long-term, and Drysdale was never going to be able to fill that role. So I don't see trading Drysdale as creating a hole that wasn't already there.

Third, I really do think that it would be an unexpected disappointment if Luneau stalls out and doesn't become close to what Drysdale could be. Perhaps I'm just higher on him than others here, but I really liked what I saw this season. I think Drysdale is a sure thing 2/3, and there's a risk Luneau is never better than a 4/5. But I think Luneau's ceiling is just as high as Drysdale's, so I like Luneau's chances of filling whatever role Jamie was going to fill, but with a different skillset.

The other side of this is Gauthier, who could bust. But I have to trust the consensus among prospect hounds who think the kid is going to be a top-6 goal scorer, something the Ducks DESPERATELY need. So for me, the worst case scenario is that the Ducks, like everyone else, missed something about Gauthier that they should have seen. But I don't see trading Drysdale as creating a new issue that they'll now have to solve. They already had questions to answer about the composition of their defense corps.
 

Masch78

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I don't think you understand how management works. Your underlings present all the information, probably in tiers. The head guy does scouting too, but usually in the top-3 rounds. Then the head guy gets to chose out of those bunch unless the head guy has a preference for a specific player. The later rounds, maybe the head guy lets your underlings make a pick such as Josh Manson in the 6th round of the 2011 draft.

Well I do refer to what Madden told in interviews, mainly in the Athletic (as long as I had the subscription).

They work their list, each pick or position does have options. What we do not know is how much a GM takes over at draft day. Martin Madden stated often, that GMBM let them do most of the things without overruling. PV said in his first draft he will not change much, since he has been here for a few weeks only. So basically that was the draft.

In the end, if your understanding is closer to reality PV stuck likely gold with Minty and Luneau. If I am more to reality, the list worked for by the scouts, MM and PV work out well.

And since I am part of something you called management I can tell you, the approach how heads work differ quite a lot you have the Ludwig the 14th guys and you have the team player. Somewhere in between we will find our reality.

Btw @Hockey Duckie do yo really consider Jamie Drysdale as a too pairing RD yet or do you refer that he was used in that role based on missing alternatives? Because at the moment, JD is a 2nd pairing guy for me, who may become a top pairing guy.
 

anezthes

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Personally I'm fine with the Gaucher pick because I agree we need good role players.

We've had a few prospects who have looked better playing in the NHL than the AHL. Cautiously optimistic about Gaucher, him and Lundeström might make for a nice 3rd line in the future.

I think reasonable minds can disagree on whether Zellweger made JD expendable...

It's funny, the Finnish broadcast (actually, just Jussi Jokinen) said Vaakanainen's play this season made dealing Drys easier. Love Vaakanainen, but come on now...
 

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