All-Time Draft #11, Part 3

[John Flyers Fan]

Ken Linseman

If strength up the middle is what wins championships, and according to some it is, I really like what I've been able to do a center.

The Rat rounds out a center group of Lalonde-Gilmour-Lepine-Linseman. All four bring something a little different to the table, and all four will be a b**** to play against.

Linseman provides the role of an agitator and pest, as well offensive threat. Linseman won the Stanley Cup in 1984, scoring the winning goal in fact, and was also a big contributor on the 1980 and '88 finalist Flyers and Bruins.

Nice grouping, and I'm one that absolutely belives in being strong up the middle. Linseman was someone we would have looked at as a 4th line center, to add to the Trottier, Francis and Brind'amour trio.

 

[DoMakc]

Top line, no. Second line? Bring it on! He is an above average 2nd line RW. If the same standards were applied across the board for hall of fame induction back in those days, Cleghorn would be in. They just went off the board with inductions a number of times and frankly, he makes a lot more sense than a number of inducted players.

His playoff resume is rather underwhelming - he had a great year 1919, but was shutdown on other occasions, he didn't play much though. Was he injured?

 

[MXD]

I'd love to have Odie on a 4th line. In the same way I'd love to have Gilmour on a 4th line or Milt Schmidt on a 3rd line. He'd be fantastic. But it would be a waste. And he doesn't deserve it. I don't see a single RW remaining who can hold a candle to him and I don't want to trash anyone's picks but he's better than a ton of modern RWs taken in the last few rounds to fill out second lines.

.

Actually, I did have him on my 4th line last draft.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Phillips - Ullman - Cleghorn. I can't say enough good things about this line. Scoring. Playmaking. Toughness. Corner Work. Defensive play. Clutch play. Leadership. It's got it all.

That's actually a pretty good 2nd line. All three guys were in my plan sooner or later.

First off, Ullman was option #2 to Sid Abel at #97. I only felt Abel was a better match with Dickie Moore, but for me they are neck and neck in term of overall quality.

Actually, I'm the first one to have selected Tommy Phillips in a ATD, as my third line LW in ATD7. His scoring abilities and overall abilities are drastically underrate. He dosn't have the physical presence of a John Tonelli or Bert Olmstead, but he blow them out of the water in term of scoring ability and all three are equally able in term of defensive abilities and backchecking. All three (and others in the same mold) should be taken few spot apart, whether the Tonelli's or Olmstead's are taken way too early, or that Tom Phillips is taken way too late. If you want someone who can play in any situation, it's your man. I'm sure 70's''stats digger''lord will bring up some surprising facts and stats on Phillips that few would imagine on him. It's for a reason he was of the first ballot of the HHOF.

If anyone think Tommy Phillips isn't a 2nd liner or even a above average 2nd liner, take 10-15 minutes and go read some on him.

 

[seventieslord]

His playoff resume is rather underwhelming - he had a great year 1919, but was shutdown on other occasions, he didn't play much though. Was he injured?

I'll have to research more for you before I answer that accurately. However, there are a number of great players who did significantly better in the regular season than the playoffs and Cleghorn probably falls into that category. Having paired him with two hugely clutch players in Ullman and Phillips, I feel he should be able to overcome whatever difficulties he experienced.

 

[MXD]

Actually, I'm the first one to have selected Tommy Phillips in a ATD, as my third line LW in ATD7. His scoring abilities and overall abilities are drastically underrate. He dosn't have the physical presence of a John Tonelli or Bert Olmstead, but he blow them out of the water in term of scoring ability and all three are equally able in term of defensive abilities and backchecking.

I think Olmstead has a pretty rare and valuable skillset -- a playmaking, grinding winger. With the right center, I would consider to pick him as high as 150. With the wrong center, he's useless. I would remain clear from Olmstead if my 1st center was, let's say, Bobby Clarke, and my 2nd center was, let's say, Adam Oates.

 

[seventieslord]

Actually, I did have him on my 4th line last draft.

I know, and it was an embarrassment of wealth if you ask me!

But yeah, I'd love him as a 4th liner. I could have drafted him to be one but then I'm left with the problem of trying to find a better player to play RW on the 2nd line... not applicable.

That's actually a pretty good 2nd line. All three guys were in my plan sooner or later.

First off, Ullman was option #2 to Sid Abel at #97. I only felt Abel was a better match with Dickie Moore, but for me they are neck and neck in term of overall quality.

Actually, I'm the first one to have selected Tommy Phillips in a ATD, as my third line LW in ATD7. His scoring abilities and overall abilities are drastically underrate. He dosn't have the physical presence of a John Tonelli or Bert Olmstead, but he blow them out of the water in term of scoring ability and all three are equally able in term of defensive abilities and backchecking. All three (and others in the same mold) should be taken few spot apart, whether the Tonelli's or Olmstead's are taken way too early, or that Tom Phillips is taken way too late. If you want someone who can play in any situation, it's your man. I'm sure 70's''stats digger''lord will bring up some surprising facts and stats on Phillips that few would imagine on him. It's for a reason he was of the first ballot of the HHOF.

If anyone think Tommy Phillips isn't a 2nd liner or even a above average 2nd liner, take 10-15 minutes and go read some on him.

Thanks. I think considering we took four defensemen early and then completed a checking line before grabbing our second line wingers, if our 2nd line is at least average then we did well.

Phillips could fit in with that Walker-Watson-Provost "ultimate 3rd line" I was talking about yesterday (pretty sick that Spitfire ended up with both) that can defend at an elite level and score better than most second lines.

Given the eras of Tonelli, Olmstead, and Phillips, it's probably a combination of them being slightly overrated and him being largely underrated. They should probably all be selected around 210-ish. The only knock on Phillips is a short career, but for that era it really wasn't that short.

I think that being a HHOF charter member really says something too. I looked at how he had done in the past ATDs and he's always selected by the most knowledgeable GMs, and they always place high in the regular season and win a round, if not two or three. I'm really surprised that given how apparently well-received he has been that his draft position has remained stagnant, at 335, 334, 337, and 334 again. I'm glad to take advantage of that but I hope next time he gets the respect he deserves.

There's very little in terms of stats that I can show you that you guys won't already know. But I can show you how those stats looked compared to others who played with or against him, particularly in those cup challenges. As for quotes, I have tons. Definitely looking forward to posting the bio.

 

[pitseleh]

I had Phillips as my 4th line RW in MLD6.

 

[seventieslord]

Best........ 4th line.......... MLD.......... RW............ ever.

 

[DoMakc]

Tonelli is a great fit for our top line, we don't need another scorer on the line with Hull and Trottier, his skillset perfectly compliments skillset of his linemates. And he has enough skills to play on the top line. But i don't think i have to sell anybody on Tonelli, the most of us've seen him play. As for his value, if we don't draft him in the early 8th, we don't get him or any other "substitute" player in the late 9th, at least I feel so.

 

[pitseleh]

I also had Eddie Gerard as my #1 defenseman.

Looking back some of those teams were stacked - HO had Marty Barry and Reg Noble on his first line, GBC had Si Griffis on his second pairing, kruezer had Odie Cleghorn on his first line, Evil Speaker had Cecil Dillon on his first line and Jim Neilson on defense, Nalyd had Frank Foyston on his first line and Jack Darragh on his third, BM67 had Moose Johnson and Lionel Hitchman, and raleh had Pit Lepine on his second line. And that was after a 20 team draft meaning 480 picks. Shows you how things have changed - all of those players were picked in the top-350 and many in the top-200 now.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I also had Eddie Gerard as my #1 defenseman.

Looking back some of those teams were stacked - HO had Marty Barry and Reg Noble on his first line, GBC had Si Griffis on his second pairing, kruezer had Odie Cleghorn on his first line, Evil Speaker had Cecil Dillon on his first line and Jim Neilson on defense, Nalyd had Frank Foyston on his first line and Jack Darragh on his third, BM67 had Moose Johnson and Lionel Hitchman, and raleh had Pit Lepine on his second line. And that was after a 20 team draft meaning 480 picks. Shows you how things have changed - all of those players were picked in the top-350 and many in the top-200 now.

Wow, an All-Star team of the MLD6 would probably compete well in this draft. I never knew both Phillips and Darragh were taken before me in ATD7. Those two had huge jump!

Kyle was around for his first selection, I'm surprise he's not here for his second selection.

 

[MXD]

deleted.

 

[nik jr]

Kyle's list has 2 other players.

if he does not arrive, i can pick his next player before he is skipped.

 

[pitseleh]

Wow, an All-Star team of the MLD6 would probably compete well in this draft. I never knew both Phillips and Darragh were taken before me in ATD7. Those two had huge jump!

No doubt, if you had a few top-150 picks to get some first line forwards and a goalie you'd be able to put together a team that would be competitive in a 28 team draft. I could see a team having a defense like Moose Johnson-Gerard-Hitchman-Griffis-Neilson being an above average group in the draft now.

 

[shawnmullin]

The Trail Smoke Eaters are proud to announce C Dave Keon as their Captain. Keon's oustanding play at both ends of the ice will serve as the ultimate example of the kind of team we are building for the Cominco Arena faithful.

We'd also like to announce D Doug Wilson as one of our Alternate Captains. He is a tremendous leader from the back end. More alternates will be named on a future date.

 

[Leaf Lander]

the power supply in my comp got blown today as some one decided to play with the fuse box at my hosue while my computer was still on. so ill be offline from home for a few days

left a list with eagle belfour

 

[EagleBelfour]

the power supply in my comp got blown today as some one decided to play with the fuse box at my hosue while my computer was still on. so ill be offline from home for a few days

left a list with eagle belfour

Damn, never saw someone with so many computer problems!

List receive, so PM me when it's LL turn.

 

[seventieslord]

the power supply in my comp got blown today as some one decided to play with the fuse box at my hosue while my computer was still on. so ill be offline from home for a few days

left a list with eagle belfour

Power supplies are super easy to replace. Anyone can do it. Just go grab one at future shop or staples for $70 and you'll be up and running tonight.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Hampton Roads selects their starting goaltender, Roy Worters

 

[God Bless Canada]

Did Red send a list to anybody?

 

[seventieslord]

Hampton Roads selects their starting goaltender, Roy Worters

Excellent pick. Best goalie left. Obviously not in the top half but by waiting this long you are strong in other areas. I was hoping to steal him as a backup.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I'm going to sleep now. I've send Chaos and LL list to 70's and pitseleh.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Excellent pick. Best goalie left. Obviously not in the top half but by waiting this long you are strong in other areas. I was hoping to steal him as a backup.

I also felt Worters was the best goalie left and couldn't wait any longer to grab him. He was stuck on bad teams for most of his career, but was a great goalie.

He has a pair of 2nd team AST, but played a few great seasons before post-season all-stars were created. He won the Hart in 1929 for leading the offensively anemic Americans to the playoffs by pitching 13 shutouts with a 1.15 GAA. He once led the league in GAA on a non-playoff team.

Before Pittsburgh was granted an NHL team, Worters played with the Pittsburgh Yellowjackets. He had a lifetime GAA of 1.13 in the regular season and 0.97 in 21 playoff games. Not sure what the league scoring average was, but that's just nuts either way.

 

[seventieslord]

I also felt Worters was the best goalie left and couldn't wait any longer to grab him. He was stuck on bad teams for most of his career, but was a great goalie.

He has a pair of 2nd team AST, but played a few great seasons before post-season all-stars were created. He won the Hart in 1929 for leading the offensively anemic Americans to the playoffs by pitching 13 shutouts with a 1.15 GAA. He once led the league in GAA on a non-playoff team.

Before Pittsburgh was granted an NHL team, Worters played with the Pittsburgh Yellowjackets. He had a lifetime GAA of 1.13 in the regular season and 0.97 in 21 playoff games. Not sure what the league scoring average was, but that's just nuts either way.

Let me help you with that.

In 1923-24 in the USAHA, the other goalies were 1.67, 1.73, 2.20 and 2.87. Worters was 1.23. In the playoffs he was 0.86; the other two were 1.63 and 2.67.

In 1924-25, the other goalies were 1.38, 1.43, 1.72, 1.88, and 2.21. Worters was 0.81. In the playoffs, he was 1.20 and the others were 0.75 and 3.00.

He averaged 1.13 against a league average of roughly 1.69 among the others. His playoff average of 0.97 was much better than the average of the others (roughly 2.01)

it's worth noting that his team was first overall both seasons so clearly he could thrive on a good team. he was not just a "bad team goalie" - there were roughly a dozen great players in this pre-consolidation league who we took in ATD/MLD/AAA10. The best player in the league was Nels Stewart, by a good margin.

it is also worth noting that his team only had the 3rd leading scorer both years even though they were 1st overall. In 1924, Lionel Conacher led the team with 16 points, Stewart led the league with 29. And in 1925, their top scorer had 14 points; the leader had 24. I'm not going to go through the entire league but a scan of the scoring list makes it look like he was in goal for the weakest offensive team both years. edit: After a more in-depth look it appears he did indeed have the best offensive team; it was just more deep as opposed to relying on 1-2 players. Still, impressive GAA.

Much like Hasek in the late 80's, he wasn't in the top league, but he dominated it so sickly that it is more than feasible that he'd be one of the two best if he was in the top league, considering he was once he got there a year later.

I'm impressed.