Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[JHS]

If laf was pacing 50-60 points right now would either of you have a problem with him?

Does the PP inflate kreider, zib or panarins numbers? You can’t point to the fact that panarin is putting up insane numbers then turn around and complain laf isn’t putting up numbers because “powerplays artificially inflate numbers.”

If laf was pacing 50-60 points right now would either of you have a problem with him?

Does the PP inflate kreider, zib or panarins numbers? You can’t point to the fact that panarin is putting up insane numbers then turn around and complain laf isn’t putting up numbers because “powerplays artificially inflate numbers”

I don’t honestly care if he puts up 50 or 60 points. Point totals are not an indication of a player developing. Laf is below an average at almost every aspect of the game right now. Literally nothing he does is good or above average. Nothing- so basically he’d need to be out there with an empty net 6 on 3 advantage for the Rangers for him to get anywhere near 50 points as he’s playing right now.

 

[haohmaru]

"The scratching didn't work, he's a bust"

Yea he should have scored a hat trick with that 11 minutes of ice time and no special teams... amirite.

He got the ice time he deserved. Nothing about his game screamed that he was trying to impress anyone, including himself, getting back into the lineup. He'll take a step at some point but I don't think it's imminent.

 

[mas0764]

oh no no no. he's many miles behind mackinnon even when they were starting out in their first 4 years in the league. currently that gap currently stands at light years. mackinnon is an absolute phucking nightmare for opposing coaches to strategize against. the ultimate nightmare!!!

if it wasn't for nico in his rookie year taylor hall wasn't going to go off with 93 pts. and injuries slowed him up after that season.

you follow nba? heard of steven adams? i kinda envision kakko to be a steven adams type of the nhl. this is the highest compliment that i can give for kakko. i know-not what you want to hear described for a 2nd pick overall but the path led to that.

If that's all he ends up as, it's mostly the Rangers fault.

 

[mas0764]

I really thought that when Kreider explicitly said Trocheck being right handed in the bumper spot - not that he's handsome, not that he's a talented hockey player, not that he's American, not that he's played for Turk before - no, that he's right handed, just like we said during the entire Strome in the bumper spot experience, would put an end to this left hander in the bumper spot on PP1 chatter. But of course it didn't. Just ignore geometry. What's the worst that can happen?

I would have really thought it is apparent that good power plays exist outside of a five man configuration of Zibanejad-Panarin-Kreider-Fox-Strome/Trocheck and that it's up to the coach being paid millions of dollars to figure it out, but of course it wasn't.

What's the worst that can happen? The power play falls off by a couple of percentage points and then you switch back?

 

[GENESISPuck94]

He got the ice time he deserved. Nothing about his game screamed that he was trying to impress anyone, including himself, getting back into the lineup. He'll take a step at some point but I don't think it's imminent.

In 11 minutes we can determine he what he deserved or didn't? No.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

They're not coaches, they are counselors. Not that they couldn't be elite coaches. Some of the best coaches I know can't dribble with their head up.

But I know you're just joaning and aren't actually serious. Get serious though.

Thanks for your uneducated advice.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Apparent to ME. How is that a mystery? And plentry of others from what I read. Why, you think he’s matching the opposition strength wise? I’m not saying he’s a doughboy, never said he was out of shape. I’m saying Ive seen little to no INCREASE in his strength and conditioning from watching his play. He still looks like he loses steam and he consistently gets out muscled. I have seen numerous folks make the same observation. Gotta say, I really don’t see the issue with this view. It takes more strength to play at the NHL level than juniors. It takes more stamina and conditioning to keep up with the much faster than juniors NHL game. This seems pretty basic and logical to me. If you see it differently that’s fine. You can believe he’s the strongest player in the NHL if you want. I don’t need you to agree. I’m just giving my opinion/observations.
The funny thing is I like Laf and have consistently said he is going to turn out just fine, be a cornerstone type player… once he gets his man strength...

He's 21, people grow at different rates. You're implying he isnt doing work without any idea of what he is doing or any reason to say it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the view if it's accurate, you have nothing to base it on outside of your own made up timeline as to when he should get his man strength. If you have something that says he isn't putting the work in I'll read it but i haven't heard anything to that end, quite the opposite.

 

[mas0764]

So your twisted logic suggests that a team with already developed players who have vastly superior skills to Laf in basically every regard should go to the coach and say “Hey Gerard, I’ve been thinking, Laf should really play over me because you know, he needs to develop. Screw my chance at winning a cup, forget all the hard work I’ve put into earning this opportunity, forget that I’m clearly the better player, let’s give Laf my spot!”

No.

Players shouldn't get a f***ing say in it at all, actually.

The coach should be inherently smart enough, and if he's not, the GM should step in and mandate, "Hey coach, develop your stars." And then the coach should probably be fired for being stupid as soon as possible.

Developing Laf (and Kakko) is the only chance at winning a Cup. The Rangers don't have a chance if things stay as they are.

If Kakko and/or Laf turn into studs, then they have a chance.

You know I once saw a movie called Rudy( fantastic movie and one of my favorites of all time) in which a Hollywood writer wrote a scene exactly as you are describing but I’m positive that’s not how it works in real life.

Rudy did not have the talent to be a star in Division 1 NCAA football so it's actually nothing like I'm talking about.

If you want a more apt comparison, it's actually like when you draft a QB first overall in the NFL, and then you cut last year's third stringer before training camp. Whaaaaaa??!?! How can a team do that before the rookie has proven he's good enough?!?! It's called talent projection and literally every sporting franchise does it, including the Rangers in other scenarios.

They just have the wrong idea of developing offensive talent and have for decades, which is why they never develop a star forward of their own.

What about this- Laf develops into a guy who earns a powerplay spot( let’s say next year). It’s now 2026 and some other young talented guy who was drafted high by the organization comes along. People like yourself are clamoring for him to be on the powerplay. Should the Rangers then follow your absurd assertion that we sacrifice Laf’s progress so this new guy can develop?

If this highly talented guy is the first pick in the draft, I will want him to get the reps needed to turn into a star, yes.

See this is what you Laf lovers don’t understand- there are 22 other guys on this roster who want to win the Stanley Cup. They’ve put in the work- gone through the development stages, made the sacrifices they need- they want to win now. For a coach to look another man in the eye and say “you don’t have the best chance to win because Laf needs to develop” is laughable on every level and counter to every single aspect of what makes a human being compete.

They don't have the best chance to win. The Rangers best chance to win the Cup is if Lafreniere turns into a point per game star winger.

And please, with the the melodrama. Most of the "22 other guys" don't have to sacrifice literally anything cause Lafreniere is already equal to them in icetime, they don't play the power play as it is, or they play another position entirely. The guys who have to "sacrifice" are superstars like Panarin, or Zibanejad, or maybe well paid veterans like Kreider or Trocheck.

I'm not interested in their opinions, but just like it was false last year when idiots (or liars, more likely) claimed that Kreider would revolt if he had to play the third line, Kreider or Trocheck would be just fine if he's taken off the power play, because that's what being part of a team is.

The Rangers need Kakko and Laf to take major steps or the Rangers aren't winning a Cup. Giving them power play reps is one possibility that will help their offensive development.

Kakko has taken the smallest step forward this year, but he needs more. He's at least got 9 points in his last 11 games, or whatnot, but he needs to (a) keep that up, and (b) eliminate his dry spells where he goes 7 games in a row without recording a point.

Lafreniere has taken a big step back. He's unnoticeable out there right now and the Rangers NEED him, for their cup chances this very season, to get going. They need him scoring like a top 6 winger, what's more, they need him scoring like a GOOD top 6 winger or even a top line winger. 0.45 ppg isn't cutting it.

We saw what relying on a power play and goalie gets you - a loss in the playoffs. This team isn't good enough to win a Cup without Laf and Kakko continuing to come along.

"Sacrificing" the construction of the power play for a month mid season might be exactly what is needed for him. If it's not, you move him off it.

The really sad thing about your argument is you aren't actually interested in what's best for the Rangers even though you profess to be. What you are married to is your ideology, and you have misinterpreted your ideology as what's best for the Rangers.

It isn't.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

This organizations track record with young forwards leaves a lot to be desired, can anyone really say with a straight face that Lafreniere, Kakko, Chytil, Kravtsov would be at the same point at this age in Detroit or Pitsburgh? I don't.

 

[IDvsEGO]

This organizations track record with young forwards leaves a lot to be desired, can anyone really say with a straight face that Lafreniere, Kakko, Chytil, Kravtsov would be at the same point at this age in Detroit or Pitsburgh? I don't.

Pittsburg wouldn’t have kept any of them in their runs.
Detroit had so many holes yeah they’d be fed ice time, but look at Zadina who was selected above Kratsov and was fed ice time and struggling.

 

[mas0764]

Pittsburg wouldn’t have kept any of them in their runs.
Detroit had so many holes yeah they’d be fed ice time, but look at Zadina who was selected above Kratsov and was fed ice time and struggling.

If Pitt had gotten a first or second overall pick they would have kept them.

 

[mas0764]

Someone mentioned it earlier, but these guys are like counselors. They'll say, "We want you to work on this." Or show them tape and say, "We need you to play more down low." They might get some time to work on one on one particulars, but practices are for the whole team and coach time. The bulk of a player's development happens in their own time. Mostly in the off-season so they can come to camp as their new and improved self. Or not. Just because players weren't elite on the ice, doesn't mean they can't get damn good counseling on their game, especially if they are players that have been through the Rangers system.

Other than Gretzky being the best player to ever play the game, he coached the Yotes to 4 out of 5 seasons at sub .500. What you accomplished on the ice might or might not translate over to coaching/development, for better or worse.

Here's an excerpt from a Leaf's article about what encompasses player development.

The addition of Belfry shows that the Leafs are adopting a new way of thinking, while developing talent, along with newfound resources not previously made available to the team.

“As I was working with players more intimately, I needed to know what specifically to work on and I didn’t want to do generic skill development. I wanted to do something that can make a large impact on the player immediately,” Belfry said about the creation of his camp. “I found myself doing more analyzing of the athlete to see what is it specifically that he needs, what is the next level? I don’t know until I view it. So I would analyze the games and then I built my own way of measuring the game so that I could pinpoint what that area was going to be so when I shared with the player where I think we can go. I was coming at it from a place of more fact base, than an opinion and a generic model.”

The organization gives them a pathway and backs it up with tape and statistics, but ultimately the player has to take it upon themselves to develop themselves.

Well even with coaching it's not like the coach is moving the players' arms and legs.

It sure sounds an awful lot like this kind of targeted instruction is something that our kids need though.

 

[McRanger92]

Point Production =/= Development

 

[ElLeetch]

This organizations track record with young forwards leaves a lot to be desired, can anyone really say with a straight face that Lafreniere, Kakko, Chytil, Kravtsov would be at the same point at this age in Detroit or Pitsburgh? I don't.

Its amazing, Kreider will get there next season, but the only players that scored more than 500 points in the NHL that the Rangers drafted in the last ~30 years has been Savard (706) and Stephan, who at this point (510 points) is just about out of the league and was lucky to reach that total.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Someone mentioned it earlier, but these guys are like counselors. They'll say, "We want you to work on this." Or show them tape and say, "We need you to play more down low." They might get some time to work on one on one particulars, but practices are for the whole team and coach time. The bulk of a player's development happens in their own time. Mostly in the off-season so they can come to camp as their new and improved self. Or not. Just because players weren't elite on the ice, doesn't mean they can't get damn good counseling on their game, especially if they are players that have been through the Rangers system.

Other than Gretzky being the best player to ever play the game, he coached the Yotes to 4 out of 5 seasons at sub .500. What you accomplished on the ice might or might not translate over to coaching/development, for better or worse.

Here's an excerpt from a Leaf's article about what encompasses player development.

The addition of Belfry shows that the Leafs are adopting a new way of thinking, while developing talent, along with newfound resources not previously made available to the team.

“As I was working with players more intimately, I needed to know what specifically to work on and I didn’t want to do generic skill development. I wanted to do something that can make a large impact on the player immediately,” Belfry said about the creation of his camp. “I found myself doing more analyzing of the athlete to see what is it specifically that he needs, what is the next level? I don’t know until I view it. So I would analyze the games and then I built my own way of measuring the game so that I could pinpoint what that area was going to be so when I shared with the player where I think we can go. I was coming at it from a place of more fact base, than an opinion and a generic model.”

The organization gives them a pathway and backs it up with tape and statistics, but ultimately the player has to take it upon themselves to develop themselves.

The leafs have a great development group, have relatives in it, but it has nothing to do with how this organization does anything.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Its amazing, Kreider will get there next season, but the only players that scored more than 500 points in the NHL that the Rangers drafted in the last ~30 years has been Savard (706) and Stephan, who at this point (510 points) is just about out of the league and was lucky to reach that total.

It's embarassing and both those players were nhl ready when they got here.

 

[Profet]

Its amazing, Kreider will get there next season, but the only players that scored more than 500 points in the NHL that the Rangers drafted in the last ~30 years has been Savard (706) and Stephan, who at this point (510 points) is just about out of the league and was lucky to reach that total.

Miller probably hits that this season as well.

 

[ElLeetch]

Miller probably hits that this season as well.

True. But also that means that out of the 4 players that will get there, half of them did most of it playing elsewhere.

 

[Rongomania]

I can't believe people think Laf and Kak on pp1 wouldn't lead to them excelling more 5v5.. they need to be given bigger roles and PP1 time absolutely fuels confidence and swagger which directly leaks into 5v5 play. We're not talking about Brandon f*cking Pirri here.

 

[mas0764]

Point Production =/= Development

Not 1-to-1, but we have focused far too much on development of defensive responsibility and a well rounded game, but far too little on development of offensive skills and those are now obviously lacking and much needed.

Deploying a player on the power play, especially a young player, will place him in an environment where the back checking, proper defensive positioning, etc, can all take a back seat for a minute and a half, and the player can just focus on the crispness of his passes without a defender in his face, can try to line up a shot without as much immediate pressure, etc. It helps hone the skills.

 

[JHS]

No.

Players shouldn't get a f***ing say in it at all, actually.

The coach should be inherently smart enough, and if he's not, the GM should step in and mandate, "Hey coach, develop your stars." And then the coach should probably be fired for being stupid as soon as possible.

Developing Laf (and Kakko) is the only chance at winning a Cup. The Rangers don't have a chance if things stay as they are.

If Kakko and/or Laf turn into studs, then they have a chance.



Rudy did not have the talent to be a star in Division 1 NCAA football so it's actually nothing like I'm talking about.

If you want a more apt comparison, it's actually like when you draft a QB first overall in the NFL, and then you cut last year's third stringer before training camp. Whaaaaaa??!?! How can a team do that before the rookie has proven he's good enough?!?! It's called talent projection and literally every sporting franchise does it, including the Rangers in other scenarios.

They just have the wrong idea of developing offensive talent and have for decades, which is why they never develop a star forward of their own.



If this highly talented guy is the first pick in the draft, I will want him to get the reps needed to turn into a star, yes.



They don't have the best chance to win. The Rangers best chance to win the Cup is if Lafreniere turns into a point per game star winger.

And please, with the the melodrama. Most of the "22 other guys" don't have to sacrifice literally anything cause Lafreniere is already equal to them in icetime, they don't play the power play as it is, or they play another position entirely. The guys who have to "sacrifice" are superstars like Panarin, or Zibanejad, or maybe well paid veterans like Kreider or Trocheck.

I'm not interested in their opinions, but just like it was false last year when idiots (or liars, more likely) claimed that Kreider would revolt if he had to play the third line, Kreider or Trocheck would be just fine if he's taken off the power play, because that's what being part of a team is.

The Rangers need Kakko and Laf to take major steps or the Rangers aren't winning a Cup. Giving them power play reps is one possibility that will help their offensive development.

Kakko has taken the smallest step forward this year, but he needs more. He's at least got 9 points in his last 11 games, or whatnot, but he needs to (a) keep that up, and (b) eliminate his dry spells where he goes 7 games in a row without recording a point.

Lafreniere has taken a big step back. He's unnoticeable out there right now and the Rangers NEED him, for their cup chances this very season, to get going. They need him scoring like a top 6 winger, what's more, they need him scoring like a GOOD top 6 winger or even a top line winger. 0.45 ppg isn't cutting it.

We saw what relying on a power play and goalie gets you - a loss in the playoffs. This team isn't good enough to win a Cup without Laf and Kakko continuing to come along.

"Sacrificing" the construction of the power play for a month mid season might be exactly what is needed for him. If it's not, you move him off it.

The really sad thing about your argument is you aren't actually interested in what's best for the Rangers even though you profess to be. What you are married to is your ideology, and you have misinterpreted your ideology as what's best for the Rangers.

It isn't.

I got it- you are n expert on player development, the Rangers, everything hockey. The rest of us are just clueless- It's like bashing my head against a wall with you so I think I'll just allow you to feel you've become the expert on Ranger hockey.

Sadly for you, the Ranger organization, multiple coaches now both agree with me. Laf's not good enough for powerplay time in meaningful minutes. I'll rest my case on that point and you can rest your point on the inernet message board.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

Someone mentioned it earlier, but these guys are like counselors. They'll say, "We want you to work on this." Or show them tape and say, "We need you to play more down low." They might get some time to work on one on one particulars, but practices are for the whole team and coach time. The bulk of a player's development happens in their own time. Mostly in the off-season so they can come to camp as their new and improved self. Or not. Just because players weren't elite on the ice, doesn't mean they can't get damn good counseling on their game, especially if they are players that have been through the Rangers system.

Other than Gretzky being the best player to ever play the game, he coached the Yotes to 4 out of 5 seasons at sub .500. What you accomplished on the ice might or might not translate over to coaching/development, for better or worse.

Here's an excerpt from a Leaf's article about what encompasses player development.

The addition of Belfry shows that the Leafs are adopting a new way of thinking, while developing talent, along with newfound resources not previously made available to the team.

“As I was working with players more intimately, I needed to know what specifically to work on and I didn’t want to do generic skill development. I wanted to do something that can make a large impact on the player immediately,” Belfry said about the creation of his camp. “I found myself doing more analyzing of the athlete to see what is it specifically that he needs, what is the next level? I don’t know until I view it. So I would analyze the games and then I built my own way of measuring the game so that I could pinpoint what that area was going to be so when I shared with the player where I think we can go. I was coming at it from a place of more fact base, than an opinion and a generic model.”

The organization gives them a pathway and backs it up with tape and statistics, but ultimately the player has to take it upon themselves to develop themselves.

ok. thanks. interesting stuff. i wander if there are any clips/docs on youtube that shows this in some detail.

kakko - he works with rantanen during the off season. i wonder if kakko ever goes to rantanen, tells him about what those counselors say he has to work on. if so what would rantanen's response be? and if there is anything that rantanen himself could use from that info.

coaching assistants and counselors of development - goalies and defensemen for the most part the rangers do an adequate job of getting these guys nhl ready. but yeah it's a bit disturbing that it has to take 4-6 years for just a few guys to finally hit a season of 50+ pts. that sucks as this has been going on for decades.

 

[JHS]

He's 21, people grow at different rates. You're implying he isnt doing work without any idea of what he is doing or any reason to say it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the view if it's accurate, you have nothing to base it on outside of your own made up timeline as to when he should get his man strength. If you have something that says he isn't putting the work in I'll read it but i haven't heard anything to that end, quite the opposite.

Well if he's putting the work in and this is the outcome-- you better hope he's not putting the work in. What I see is a guy who's come back from the offseason as unprepared for the upcoming season as the year before. So again- if his current status is the result of him "putting in the work" I'm even more concerned.

 

[mas0764]

I got it- you are n expert on player development, the Rangers, everything hockey. The rest of us are just clueless- It's like bashing my head against a wall with you so I think I'll just allow you to feel you've become the expert on Ranger hockey.

Sadly for you, the Ranger organization, multiple coaches now both agree with me. Laf's not good enough for powerplay time in meaningful minutes. I'll rest my case on that point and you can rest your point on the inernet message board.

One of your experts was fired from here for sucking, and the other got fired twice quickly from other stops, so not the best strategy in just saying "Well the coaches agree with me."

Coaches are often wrong.

Also love the tears about how I must "think I'm an expert on player development," because I'm debating you. Like, this is a message board, people argue. Who is "the rest of us"? Lots of these posters agree with me that your analysis is incorrect.

And you are just as egotistical in daring to explain your own opinion to me so you can get off the cross now. You are wrong, just suck it up and move on.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

This organizations track record with young forwards leaves a lot to be desired, can anyone really say with a straight face that Lafreniere, Kakko, Chytil, Kravtsov would be at the same point at this age in Detroit or Pitsburgh? I don't.

the opportunities would still be very limited in pitt. kapanen imho is better than any of those ranger 4, and he's currently slotted as a 4th liner. i'm curious as to what they think of those 4.

actually might see significant improvement from one of them in detroit though. the way they play offense results in lots of shot opportunities.

i'm jealous though - both those teams have front office guys who know what they're doing. burke and yzerman are light years better than drury.