Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

oh btw. when both PP units are at practice, would it be safe to assume that they are practicing against one of the top 3 goalies in the league? so if someone on PP2 is lighting up shesty constantly then yeah that dude would absolute;y merit a couple of cracks on the PP1.

 

[Rangers in 7]

The idea that trust, confidence, and usage has no impact on how a human being develops in athletics or really any endeavor flies in the face of everything we know regarding human performance.

You and many other Lafreniere “skeptics” seem to believe that these human beings get dropped on the ice and perform as they were born to perform and external factors have no impact on what they are capable of. I reject that.



Completely agree. And I’m not saying, and never have said, that they should move Mika/Panarin/Kreider off the PP for Lafreniere.

I am saying that Lafreniere has had to walk a different road than any 1OA pick I can think of. And that his performance should be evaluated in that context. And that it is possible it has had an impact on the player you see on the ice today.

This is one of the better posts I’ve seen on here lately. Completely agree with everything you’ve said. Too many of the “skeptics” are losing context when it comes to evaluating lafs first three years here

 

[ReddestRum]

No, I didn't mean that you said he will bust. I mean if he ends up busting, it will suck for us and the organization, but it's not the first time or the last time.

Well, at least we're not a team that had four 1OA picks in the last 8 years with nothing to show for it. But yeah, if the kids don't pan out, we're back to square one. We've still got time. Not a lot of time, but time.

 

[huerter]

If laf was pacing 50-60 points right now would either of you have a problem with him?

Does the PP inflate kreider, zib or panarins numbers? You can’t point to the fact that panarin is putting up insane numbers then turn around and complain laf isn’t putting up numbers because “powerplays artificially inflate numbers”

Points schmoints (no sarcasm)

 

[mas0764]

"If that means Trocheck needs to come off it for a few weeks,"

the unit has been clicking with a new guy that has more than adequately replaced strome on the unit and you're suggesting he should come off that unit? and for a few week? da phuck!!!

It's not clicking. It's ranked 15th. Whatever Panarin-Zibanejad-Fox-Trocheck-Kreider are doing, a different mix of 5 guys on 14 different teams is doing it better.

I don't know if swapping in Kakko or Lafreniere for one of those above names makes it better, but I'm not exactly petrified to find out. What's the downside, we fall to 18th? Oh no, not that!

We are only at 15th. It's possible a different mix actually ends up with better results. Clinging to the same 5 guys because they were good last year is more than a little myopic.

But it's also besides the point: If Lafreniere and Kakko weren't in the equation, I wouldn't be clamoring to change just for change's sake.

At the same time, I really don't care if we slide from 15th to 20th and score 3 less power play goals every 100 chances, if it gets Lafreniere and/or Kakko to increase their 5v5 production, which, a little power play production may spark them.

The benefit to 5v5 outweighs any loss to PP production there. And if the kids did get sparked, you could always, uh, put Trocheck back on PP1 later.

kakko is doing grinding work that facilitates the line he is on to get space and chances to do damage. and this season he's doing it real well. but you might want to refrain from using the word elite when referencing kakko. the word elite should be used to refer to players such as kucherov, mackinnon, mcdavid, etc.

Kakko is an elite talent, maybe not McDavid elite but not far behind MacKinnon elite when he came out. Better talent than Hischier, Ekblad, Yakupov, and better, or on par with, many 2nd overall picks like Barkov, Laine, Patrick, Svechnikov, etc.

He has been mishandled here.

 

[mas0764]

The idea that trust, confidence, and usage has no impact on how a human being develops in athletics or really any endeavor flies in the face of everything we know regarding human performance.

You and many other Lafreniere “skeptics” seem to believe that these human beings get dropped on the ice and perform as they were born to perform and external factors have no impact on what they are capable of. I reject that.

The dude you are quoting rejects the premise too, as does any rationally thinking being, if it were presented to him in any context besides one in which he's already planted his anti-Lafreniere, boomer-era 'gotta earn what's given to you' flag.

 

[Bondra slapshot]

Coming into this season, I actually thought Laf would be the one finding his groove now, while Kakko continued to struggle. So far this season, it's been the opposite of what I expected. Laf had such a strong playoffs. I thought his momentum would continue. He cooled off, while Kakko has been showing great engagement in all areas of the ice. I loved how Kakko got called out for making that misplay at the blue line a few games ago and then later that game, roofed a puck to score off a feed from Miller. That's tremendous character. Kakko now looks like he's shaping out to be money, while Laf is still up in the air. I do think he should be given a longer leash than Kakko, since he's playing with one less year of experience at this point. Kakko should be ahead of him.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

It's not clicking. It's ranked 15th. Whatever Panarin-Zibanejad-Fox-Trocheck-Kreider are doing, a different mix of 5 guys on 14 different teams is doing it better.

I don't know if swapping in Kakko or Lafreniere for one of those above names makes it better, but I'm not exactly petrified to find out. What's the downside, we fall to 18th? Oh no, not that!

We are only at 15th. It's possible a different mix actually ends up with better results. Clinging to the same 5 guys because they were good last year is more than a little myopic.

But it's also besides the point: If Lafreniere and Kakko weren't in the equation, I wouldn't be clamoring to change just for change's sake.

At the same time, I really don't care if we slide from 15th to 20th and score 3 less power play goals every 100 chances, if it gets Lafreniere and/or Kakko to increase their 5v5 production, which, a little power play production may spark them.

The benefit to 5v5 outweighs any loss to PP production there. And if the kids did get sparked, you could always, uh, put Trocheck back on PP1 later.



Kakko is an elite talent, maybe not McDavid elite but not far behind MacKinnon elite when he came out. Better talent than Hischier, Ekblad, Yakupov, and better, or on par with, many 2nd overall picks like Barkov, Laine, Patrick, Svechnikov, etc.

He has been mishandled here.

oh no no no. he's many miles behind mackinnon even when they were starting out in their first 4 years in the league. currently that gap currently stands at light years. mackinnon is an absolute phucking nightmare for opposing coaches to strategize against. the ultimate nightmare!!!

if it wasn't for nico in his rookie year taylor hall wasn't going to go off with 93 pts. and injuries slowed him up after that season.

you follow nba? heard of steven adams? i kinda envision kakko to be a steven adams type of the nhl. this is the highest compliment that i can give for kakko. i know-not what you want to hear described for a 2nd pick overall but the path led to that.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

Gallant scratches him and follows that up by giving him 11 minutes. That's supposed to give him any opportunity or confidence? The players give him the hat so the situation doesn't become toxic. How long is that bandaid going to work? Gallant is destroying this kid's career.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I’m saying there are levels. And neither of us knows for sure what he is doing.
What would your explanation be for the apparent lack of improvement in strength and conditioning? It’s not an indictment to say he’s still learning. Whether it’s how to play on the ice as an NHLer or how to train off it as one. If you insist on taking it that way there is zero I can do about that.

You say its an apparent lack of improvement, apparent to who? What makes you think he isnt stronger and in better condition than he was at 19? When Buch was here first they made a point of saying he wasnt in shape, i havent heard one whisper of that about Lafreniere. If you've heard something saying he isn't in shape then by all means link it I'll read it.

 

[huerter]

It's not clicking. It's ranked 15th. Whatever Panarin-Zibanejad-Fox-Trocheck-Kreider are doing, a different mix of 5 guys on 14 different teams is doing it better.

I don't know if swapping in Kakko or Lafreniere for one of those above names makes it better, but I'm not exactly petrified to find out. What's the downside, we fall to 18th? Oh no, not that!

We are only at 15th. It's possible a different mix actually ends up with better results. Clinging to the same 5 guys because they were good last year is more than a little myopic.

But it's also besides the point: If Lafreniere and Kakko weren't in the equation, I wouldn't be clamoring to change just for change's sake.

At the same time, I really don't care if we slide from 15th to 20th and score 3 less power play goals every 100 chances, if it gets Lafreniere and/or Kakko to increase their 5v5 production, which, a little power play production may spark them.

The benefit to 5v5 outweighs any loss to PP production there. And if the kids did get sparked, you could always, uh, put Trocheck back on PP1 later.



Kakko is an elite talent, maybe not McDavid elite but not far behind MacKinnon elite when he came out. Better talent than Hischier, Ekblad, Yakupov, and better, or on par with, many 2nd overall picks like Barkov, Laine, Patrick, Svechnikov, etc.

He has been mishandled here.

I really thought that when Kreider explicitly said Trocheck being right handed in the bumper spot - not that he's handsome, not that he's a talented hockey player, not that he's American, not that he's played for Turk before - no, that he's right handed, just like we said during the entire Strome in the bumper spot experience, would put an end to this left hander in the bumper spot on PP1 chatter. But of course it didn't. Just ignore geometry. What's the worst that can happen?

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I’d say ideal 1-3-1 is having a lefty and righty playing the half walls to open as many one T options as possible. You can run it with any personnel though, Bedard is a great option on his strong side because his wrister is insane and his release/ability to shoot through screens is unreal. Panarin it’s not as natural for him, and it’s a more difficult pass for him to make to Trocheck at the bumper spot as a right handed stick

But i have never heard anyone say yeah let’s not have a one timer option on one of the dots in the 1-3-1. It’s just more complicated when you have Zib/Panarin who are our best players who you want handling the puck the most AKA playing the half walls

What about a pass to the bumper from the other side of the ice? Like instead of forcing a zib one timer he fakes and taps it to the bumper? Maybe the reason this pp is stale is because its the same predictable plays we've run out for 2 years.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

What about a pass to the bumper from the other side of the ice? Like instead of forcing a zib one timer he fakes and taps it to the bumper? Maybe the reason this pp is stale is because its the same predictable plays we've run out for 2 years.

Tampa literally does this with Kucherov opposite Stamkos, and builds their PPs around the one timer to Stamkos and people around here are acting like those of us saying this are talking about using the Mighty Ducks' Flying V in an actual game. LOL

 

[huerter]

Tampa literally does this with Kucherov opposite Stamkos, and builds their PPs around the one timer to Stamkos and people around here are acting like those of us saying this are talking about using the Mighty Ducks' Flying V in an actual game. LOL

I've always said that you COULD theoretically put a lefty in Panarin's spot and it would ALTER but not KILL the GEOMETRY but that I PREFER a righty and when that righty also happens to be your best offensive creator then it's moot.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Jed Ortmeyer and Tanner Glass are running our development and ya'll pretending that's not an issue. Serious thought, what could Tanner Glass teach Adam Fox?

 

[huerter]

Jed Ortmeyer and Tanner Glass are running our development and ya'll pretending that's not an issue. Serious thought, what could Tanner Glass teach Adam Fox?

They're not coaches, they are counselors. Not that they couldn't be elite coaches. Some of the best coaches I know can't dribble with their head up.

But I know you're just joaning and aren't actually serious. Get serious though.

 

[bhamill]

You say its an apparent lack of improvement, apparent to who? What makes you think he isnt stronger and in better condition than he was at 19? When Buch was here first they made a point of saying he wasnt in shape, i havent heard one whisper of that about Lafreniere. If you've heard something saying he isn't in shape then by all means link it I'll read it.

Apparent to ME. How is that a mystery? And plentry of others from what I read. Why, you think he’s matching the opposition strength wise? I’m not saying he’s a doughboy, never said he was out of shape. I’m saying Ive seen little to no INCREASE in his strength and conditioning from watching his play. He still looks like he loses steam and he consistently gets out muscled. I have seen numerous folks make the same observation. Gotta say, I really don’t see the issue with this view. It takes more strength to play at the NHL level than juniors. It takes more stamina and conditioning to keep up with the much faster than juniors NHL game. This seems pretty basic and logical to me. If you see it differently that’s fine. You can believe he’s the strongest player in the NHL if you want. I don’t need you to agree. I’m just giving my opinion/observations.
The funny thing is I like Laf and have consistently said he is going to turn out just fine, be a cornerstone type player… once he gets his man strength...

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

Jed Ortmeyer and Tanner Glass are running our development and ya'll pretending that's not an issue. Serious thought, what could Tanner Glass teach Adam Fox?

these 2 guys - so how does this work?

do they work strictly with players in the minors? do they work with any of the players that are on the rangers at all? i'm very unfamiliar with these two guys. other than having careers as 4th liners what other criteria is used to base their qualifications as talent developers?

 

[Kocur26]

As I said earlier Lafrenniere’s day in NYC are nearing an end …

“The Canucks have checked in on Lafrenière, he was made a healthy scratch last week by the Rangers,” Rick Dhaliwal tweeted. “Lafrenière will not be cheap but the Canucks have the assets like Bo Horvat to pull this off, if the Rangers decide to move him.”

Canucks interested in Alexis Lafreniere​

Rangers Rumors: Canucks show interest in Alexis Lafreniere - Forever Blueshirts

Forever Blueshirts is the leading source of local/independent news, opinion, analysis and content! New content daily!

www.foreverblueshirts.com

 

[mrmovies779]

As I said earlier Lafrenniere’s day in NYC are nearing an end …

“The Canucks have checked in on Lafrenière, he was made a healthy scratch last week by the Rangers,” Rick Dhaliwal tweeted. “Lafrenière will not be cheap but the Canucks have the assets like Bo Horvat to pull this off, if the Rangers decide to move him.”

Canucks interested in Alexis Lafreniere​

Rangers Rumors: Canucks show interest in Alexis Lafreniere - Forever Blueshirts

Forever Blueshirts is the leading source of local/independent news, opinion, analysis and content! New content daily!

www.foreverblueshirts.com

I'm still waiting for Malkin to sign,like you guaranteed.the next time you're right about something will be a 1st

 

[ReddestRum]

these 2 guys - so how does this work?

do they work strictly with players in the minors? do they work with any of the players that are on the rangers at all? i'm very unfamiliar with these two guys. other than having careers as 4th liners what other criteria is used to base their qualifications as talent developers?

Someone mentioned it earlier, but these guys are like counselors. They'll say, "We want you to work on this." Or show them tape and say, "We need you to play more down low." They might get some time to work on one on one particulars, but practices are for the whole team and coach time. The bulk of a player's development happens in their own time. Mostly in the off-season so they can come to camp as their new and improved self. Or not. Just because players weren't elite on the ice, doesn't mean they can't get damn good counseling on their game, especially if they are players that have been through the Rangers system.

Other than Gretzky being the best player to ever play the game, he coached the Yotes to 4 out of 5 seasons at sub .500. What you accomplished on the ice might or might not translate over to coaching/development, for better or worse.

Here's an excerpt from a Leaf's article about what encompasses player development.

The addition of Belfry shows that the Leafs are adopting a new way of thinking, while developing talent, along with newfound resources not previously made available to the team.

“As I was working with players more intimately, I needed to know what specifically to work on and I didn’t want to do generic skill development. I wanted to do something that can make a large impact on the player immediately,” Belfry said about the creation of his camp. “I found myself doing more analyzing of the athlete to see what is it specifically that he needs, what is the next level? I don’t know until I view it. So I would analyze the games and then I built my own way of measuring the game so that I could pinpoint what that area was going to be so when I shared with the player where I think we can go. I was coming at it from a place of more fact base, than an opinion and a generic model.”

The organization gives them a pathway and backs it up with tape and statistics, but ultimately the player has to take it upon themselves to develop themselves.

 

[RangersFan1994]

Seems like the healthy scratch did nothing

we all have to face the fact that he is a 20-25 point player. He has not improved at all from season to season. That is a huge red flag.

 

[JHS]

I called it the Cult of Lafreniere about a week ago, because this thread feels exactly like that. I've never seen so many excuses for one player. Not even Kakko.

They make excuses about his age and that he needs to "grow into his body", yet there are younger players who have surpassed his production, and who lead by example in their young ages because they've shown they have the skill to do so.

They make excuses that the organization doesn't develop their young players, but the definition of development to the CoL is that he get PP minutes to pad his stats. At most the organization will let you know what you need to work on, but it's Laf that needs to find a reputable coach to strengthen his shortfalls, and that shit isn't happening in the middle of the season.

They make excuses that he doesn't get enough time on ice, and that he needs to play with vets to excel. I think that's counter to what is defined as elite in the NHL. The elite separate themselves from others, no matter what line they're on. And to add to that, Laf has been on a line with Zib and Bread and STILL looked mediocre to average.

They make excuses that he doesn't get enough PP1 time and would rather switch out someone in the top 5 of scoring on this team (someone who hasn't been scoring 3 points a game for the last week or whateve) for Laf, when even Kakko looks rungs about him. The excuse for Kakko looking better, as said in this thread, is because Kakko has a year on him, but fail to acknowledge that, again, there are younger players that just look better.

The excuses just don't seem to end, but even in this thread, they will turn around and ridicule a 20-year old Stutzle for being a defensive liability. A guy like him doesn't rate the same excuses that our boy Laf gets. I've never seen a soon to be millionaire hockey player held to the bosom as much as Laf has. It's straight up cringe.

Yeah and to that point, no one is rooting against the guy. I want him to succeed but this absurd notion that he just be gifted opportunities is laughable. How about he earn them? To your other wise point, he’s not even next in line to jump onto the powerplay even if they took off one of the guys on the top 5- Kappo would!

Laf needs to make a real difference this off season. He’s likely only going to get a bridge deal at best from the Rangers so he better take that as a sign. He’s had 3 years and he’s done NOTHING!

The idea that trust, confidence, and usage has no impact on how a human being develops in athletics or really any endeavor flies in the face of everything we know regarding human performance.

You and many other Lafreniere “skeptics” seem to believe that these human beings get dropped on the ice and perform as they were born to perform and external factors have no impact on what they are capable of. I reject that.



Completely agree. And I’m not saying, and never have said, that they should move Mika/Panarin/Kreider off the PP for Lafreniere.

I am saying that Lafreniere has had to walk a different road than any 1OA pick I can think of. And that his performance should be evaluated in that context. And that it is possible it has had an impact on the player you see on the ice today.

Laf accumulating points on the Powerplay will not improve his 5 on 5 play. Again, sorry to point this out to people but if you’ve ever played hockey at a higher level guys on the powerplay unit understand their stats will be skewed favorably by being on it but they know the game enough to see how 5 on 5 hockey is not the same.

That’s why the NHL does not award a minus to the guys on the penalty kill- their plus minus would be totally skewed.

 

[JHS]

So your twisted log

Which generation is that? The boomers?



He does pass well, it is his decisiveness and confidence that is lacking.

Things that will get better with reps.



Let me wake you up to a little fact: Wrong, NHL hockey and in fact all professional sports is about winning Championships, not regular season games.

You need to develop your ace talents into stars in order to do that. The Rangers have shown rather definitively that the core they have isn't good enough to overcome the elite of the league without Kakko, Laf, and maybe other kids as well all becoming stars.

Yes, it is about the long game, no, that's not nonsense.


This has nothing to do with anyone's ego.

In fact, I'm saying guys like Panarin, Kreider, and Zibanejad should maybe sacrifice their ego a little bit. It's your position that results in catering to the ego of the established stars.



No, that's not true.

Getting exposure to reps develops skills.

Like everywhere in the real world.



Lafreniere developing is best for the team.

So your twisted logic suggests that a team with already developed players who have vastly superior skills to Laf in basically every regard should go to the coach and say “Hey Gerard, I’ve been thinking, Laf should really play over me because you know, he needs to develop. Screw my chance at winning a cup, forget all the hard work I’ve put into earning this opportunity, forget that I’m clearly the better player, let’s give Laf my spot!” You know I once saw a movie called Rudy( fantastic movie and one of my favorites of all time) in which a Hollywood writer wrote a scene exactly as you are describing but I’m positive that’s not how it works in real life.

What about this- Laf develops into a guy who earns a powerplay spot( let’s say next year). It’s now 2026 and some other young talented guy who was drafted high by the organization comes along. People like yourself are clamoring for him to be on the powerplay. Should the Rangers then follow your absurd assertion that we sacrifice Laf’s progress so this new guy can develop?

See this is what you Laf lovers don’t understand- there are 22 other guys on this roster who want to win the Stanley Cup. They’ve put in the work- gone through the development stages, made the sacrifices they need- they want to win now. For a coach to look another man in the eye and say “you don’t have the best chance to win because Laf needs to develop” is laughable on every level and counter to every single aspect of what makes a human being compete.

 

[GENESISPuck94]

"The scratching didn't work, he's a bust"

Yea he should have scored a hat trick with that 11 minutes of ice time and no special teams... amirite.