Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[HatTrick Swayze]

Totally untrue- your point further along disagrees with yourself. Most top overall picks are the most talented guys on the team. That’s why they get the opportunity they get. Laf is not!!! Why is this hard to understand for you guys??? If he was the most talented he’d be playing on the powerplay!

Gifting someone an opportunity means they get something they don’t deserve. If every other top pick was drafted on a terrible team and they were better than most of the guys and earned their opportunity they played! If they stunk- they did not!!!

Jack Hughes scored at a 30 point pace in his rookie year. He was 2nd in PO TOI / 60 and 12th in PP points / 60. Is that “earning it”?

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

It's not like LH shots on the right wall on a 1-3-1 PP don't work though, look at Tampa/ Washington/Boston. What's more important is that the bumper's stick is aligned with the net front guys stick so there's the threat of a pass from down low to the bumper which teams have to account for and opens up more seams across and up top.

Caps and TBL have had the lefty + righty setup forever with Stamkos/kucherov and ovi/backstrom. Obviously it’s not a rule, plenty of great power plays mix it up and some players excel better at creating with their stick on the boards. Mcdavid often plays the left side where he can circle up top and gain speed before moving in and trying to do something.

You mentioned the goal line player to bumper pass, this is the element that NYR don’t utilize and I think that’s why Panarin seems to get cornered a lot. Other than for a tip, Kreider never flares out as a passing option for Panarin. From there he can look for Trocheck in the bumper or across for Zib sneaking back door. The caps destroyed us with this setup on goals from Oshie/Joel ward/Brouwer a million times. Caps usually have a skilled player as a goal line option for Backstrom to play catch with (Johansen/Kuznetsov). Kreider would just kill the play if they asked him to create much from there, id much rather see Kakko/Laf play that role if they’re looking to utilize more goal line play on the first unit, but that would mean losing our best net front guy.

 

[ReddestRum]

Jack Hughes scored at a 30 point pace in his rookie year. He was 2nd in PO TOI / 60 and 12th in PP points / 60. Is that “earning it”?

Dude worked his ass off in the off-season and came out of the gate like a beast and will probably obliterate his near 60 point season last season, this season, on a team that's on the downward. If Laf even had a quarter of his ability to skate, move the puck, IQ, and driving the play, this thread would probably be full of cheer (despite how many points Laf has).

 

[JHS]

Jack Hughes scored at a 30 point pace in his rookie year. He was 2nd in PO TOI / 60 and 12th in PP points / 60. Is that “earning it”?

He was on one of the worst teams in recent NHL history. Yeah he probably did earn it over most of the other garbage that was on that team.

Guys, one more time- all playing on the powerplay does is artificially inflate point totals. That’s it- you don’t learn to play better at 5 on 5, you don’t learn to defend better, you don’t learn how to position yourself better, you don’t learn how to transition from offense to defense better- you don’t develop. You just maybe have a better shot at getting points because most of the time it does increase that and if you want to extrapolate that to mean maybe Laf would have more confidence than ok I’ll concede that. Once again though, developing as a hockey player does not mean you get more points because you are on the powerplay. It’s like we are having two different conversations here. Developing as a player means your all around game improves and you take ownership of your own destiny by meaningfully contributing in the roles you are given( like Kappo is doing right now.)

So let’s try this- what had Laf done to earn this top powerplay unit time so many want? He’s never drastically improved in an offseason, he’s never even had a memorable goal as a Ranger. He’s largely invisible most games, can’t break out of the bottom
3 forwards, seems to be regressing and has done 0 to make himself standout except in negative ways. I’ve asked this question earlier in this thread and all I got was some skirting around and attacking my points but beside “he’s a top pick” and some random assertion that he’s a “good passer” no one can give me anything in actual reality.

I flat out reject the argument that the organization should sacrifice this window we have now so we can “see what we have in Laf.” That’s absolute nonsense. The Rangers have a chance to win this season. Is it a great chance- not really but it’s certainly not worth throwing away considering they have many pieces in place now to contend.

Dude worked his ass off in the off-season and came out of the gate like a beast and will probably obliterate his near 60 point season last season, this season, on a team that's on the downward. If Laf even had a quarter of his ability to skate, move the puck, IQ, and driving the play, this thread would probably be full of cheer (despite how many points Laf has).

Exactly- but don’t try and add in relevant facts or actual analysis here because half these guys would stand mouth agape unable to utter a word if they even saw Laf from 20
feet away they are in so much love with the guy.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Caps and TBL have had the lefty + righty setup forever with Stamkos/kucherov and ovi/backstrom. Obviously it’s not a rule, plenty of great power plays mix it up and some players excel better at creating with their stick on the boards. Mcdavid often plays the left side where he can circle up top and gain speed before moving in and trying to do something.

You mentioned the goal line player to bumper pass, this is the element that NYR don’t utilize and I think that’s why Panarin seems to get cornered a lot. Other than for a tip, Kreider never flares out as a passing option for Panarin. From there he can look for Trocheck in the bumper or across for Zib sneaking back door. The caps destroyed us with this setup on goals from Oshie/Joel ward/Brouwer a million times. Caps usually have a skilled player as a goal line option for Backstrom to play catch with (Johansen/Kuznetsov). Kreider would just kill the play if they asked him to create much from there, id much rather see Kakko/Laf play that role if they’re looking to utilize more goal line play on the first unit, but that would mean losing our best net front guy.

yeah that's exactly right. It won't happen but If there was one change to make on the PP it would be to switch Kreider with Kakko so he could do exactly what you described.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

You made it seem like Bedard's skillset makes him an exception to play there but Panarin being right handed isn't suited for it. When he was in the box and Canada had a 2 min PP, they put Stankoven in that spot. Every guy on the roster gets PP time in junior. They could have picked anyone. Why wouldn't they put a lefty there?

It’s not a rule that it has to be a lefty or righty lol, but the plays your team can do are entirely dictated by the handedness/skillsets of your players. Without the puck, players on their off wing are objectively more threatening than players on their strong side because of one timer threats. More lanes open up and it’s just much easier to convert. This isn’t nitpicking or “#tinkering”, the Rangers are a league average power play by percentage and it’s worth discussing why their metrics haven’t aligned yet with their elite chance generation. I believe in the analytics but at some point it’s worth considering whether the structure isn’t conducive to consistently producing goals, especially when you see teams cheating to Mika and the Rangers not using any goal line or bumper plays.

As for Bedard, he IS better suited to score on his strong side than almost anyone. He’s like Matthews, he can circle up near the blue line and gain a head of steam and just rip shots through traffic. Panarin can make it work anywhere, he’s an elite player. That doesn’t mean the setup is optimal or immune from criticism when things aren’t working. I can guarantee he prefers the left dot where he’s been his whole career.

 

[ReddestRum]

He was on one of the worst teams in recent NHL history. Yeah he probably did earn it over most of the other garbage that was on that team.

Guys, one more time- all playing on the powerplay does is artificially inflate point totals. That’s it- you don’t learn to play better at 5 on 5, you don’t learn to defend better, you don’t learn how to position yourself better, you don’t learn how to transition from offense to defense better- you don’t develop. You just maybe have a better shot at getting points because most of the time it does increase that and if you want to extrapolate that to mean maybe Laf would have more confidence than ok I’ll concede that. Once again though, developing as a hockey player does not mean you get more points because you are on the powerplay. It’s like we are having two different conversations here. Developing as a player means your all around game improves and you take ownership of your own destiny by meaningfully contributing in the roles you are given( like Kappo is doing right now.)

So let’s try this- what had Laf done to earn this top powerplay unit time so many want? He’s never drastically improved in an offseason, he’s never even had a memorable goal as a Ranger. He’s largely invisible most games, can’t break out of the bottom
3 forwards, seems to be regressing and has done 0 to make himself standout except in negative ways. I’ve asked this question earlier in this thread and all I got was some skirting around and attacking my points but beside “he’s a top pick” and some random assertion that he’s a “good passer” no one can give me anything in actual reality.

I flat out reject the argument that the organization should sacrifice this window we have now so we can “see what we have in Laf.” That’s absolute nonsense. The Rangers have a chance to win this season. Is it a great chance- not really but it’s certainly not worth throwing away considering they have many pieces in place now to contend.


Exactly- but don’t try and add in relevant facts or actual analysis here because half these guys would stand mouth agape unable to utter a word if they even saw Laf from 20
feet away they are in so much love with the guy.

I called it the Cult of Lafreniere about a week ago, because this thread feels exactly like that. I've never seen so many excuses for one player. Not even Kakko.

They make excuses about his age and that he needs to "grow into his body", yet there are younger players who have surpassed his production, and who lead by example in their young ages because they've shown they have the skill to do so.

They make excuses that the organization doesn't develop their young players, but the definition of development to the CoL is that he get PP minutes to pad his stats. At most the organization will let you know what you need to work on, but it's Laf that needs to find a reputable coach to strengthen his shortfalls, and that shit isn't happening in the middle of the season.

They make excuses that he doesn't get enough time on ice, and that he needs to play with vets to excel. I think that's counter to what is defined as elite in the NHL. The elite separate themselves from others, no matter what line they're on. And to add to that, Laf has been on a line with Zib and Bread and STILL looked mediocre to average.

They make excuses that he doesn't get enough PP1 time and would rather switch out someone in the top 5 of scoring on this team (someone who hasn't been scoring 3 points a game for the last week or whateve) for Laf, when even Kakko looks rungs about him. The excuse for Kakko looking better, as said in this thread, is because Kakko has a year on him, but fail to acknowledge that, again, there are younger players that just look better.

The excuses just don't seem to end, but even in this thread, they will turn around and ridicule a 20-year old Stutzle for being a defensive liability. A guy like him doesn't rate the same excuses that our boy Laf gets. I've never seen a soon to be millionaire hockey player held to the bosom as much as Laf has. It's straight up cringe.

 

[Rangers in 7]

He was on one of the worst teams in recent NHL history. Yeah he probably did earn it over most of the other garbage that was on that team.

Guys, one more time- all playing on the powerplay does is artificially inflate point totals. That’s it- you don’t learn to play better at 5 on 5, you don’t learn to defend better, you don’t learn how to position yourself better, you don’t learn how to transition from offense to defense better- you don’t develop. You just maybe have a better shot at getting points because most of the time it does increase that and if you want to extrapolate that to mean maybe Laf would have more confidence than ok I’ll concede that. Once again though, developing as a hockey player does not mean you get more points because you are on the powerplay. It’s like we are having two different conversations here. Developing as a player means your all around game improves and you take ownership of your own destiny by meaningfully contributing in the roles you are given( like Kappo is doing right now.)

So let’s try this- what had Laf done to earn this top powerplay unit time so many want? He’s never drastically improved in an offseason, he’s never even had a memorable goal as a Ranger. He’s largely invisible most games, can’t break out of the bottom
3 forwards, seems to be regressing and has done 0 to make himself standout except in negative ways. I’ve asked this question earlier in this thread and all I got was some skirting around and attacking my points but beside “he’s a top pick” and some random assertion that he’s a “good passer” no one can give me anything in actual reality.

I flat out reject the argument that the organization should sacrifice this window we have now so we can “see what we have in Laf.” That’s absolute nonsense. The Rangers have a chance to win this season. Is it a great chance- not really but it’s certainly not worth throwing away considering they have many pieces in place now to contend.


Exactly- but don’t try and add in relevant facts or actual analysis here because half these guys would stand mouth agape unable to utter a word if they even saw Laf from 20
feet away they are in so much love with the guy.

I called it the Cult of Lafreniere about a week ago, because this thread feels exactly like that. I've never seen so many excuses for one player. Not even Kakko.

They make excuses about his age and that he needs to "grow into his body", yet there are younger players who have surpassed his production, and who lead by example in their young ages because they've shown they have the skill to do so.

They make excuses that the organization doesn't develop their young players, but the definition of development to the CoL is that he get PP minutes to pad his stats. At most the organization will let you know what you need to work but, but it's Laf that needs to find a reputable coach to strengthen his shortfalls, and that shit isn't happening in the middle of the season.

They make excuses that he doesn't get enough time on ice, and that he needs to play with vets to excel. I think that's counter to what is defined as elite in the NHL. The elite separate themselves from others, no matter what line they're on. And to add to that, Laf has been on a line with Zib and Bread and STILL looked mediocre to average.

They make excuses that he doesn't get enough PP1 time and would rather switch out someone in the top 5 of scoring on this team (someone who hasn't been scoring 3 points a game for the last week or whateve) for Laf, when even Kakko looks rungs about him. The excuse for Kakko lookin better, as said in this thread, is because Kakko has a year on him, but fail to acknowledge that, again, there are younger players that just look better.

The excuses just don't seem to end, but even in this thread, they will turn around and ridicule a 20-year old Stutzle for being a defensive liability. A guy like him doesn't rate the same excuses that our boy Laf gets. I've never seen a soon to be millionaire hockey player held to the bosom as much as Laf has. It's straight up cringe.

If laf was pacing 50-60 points right now would either of you have a problem with him?

Does the PP inflate kreider, zib or panarins numbers? You can’t point to the fact that panarin is putting up insane numbers then turn around and complain laf isn’t putting up numbers because “powerplays artificially inflate numbers”

 

[ReddestRum]

If laf was pacing 50-60 points right now would either of you have a problem with him?

Does the PP inflate kreider, zib or panarins numbers? You can’t point to the fact that panarin is putting up insane numbers then turn around and complain laf isn’t putting up numbers because “powerplays artificially inflate numbers”

Holy shit... Kreids, Zib, and Bread are considered top league players even when they're not on the PP!! For guys like Zib and Bread, the PP compliments their stats, but doesn't define them. They have the skill to be offensive threats no matter where you put them. Laf can't pass like Bread, doesn't have Zib's hands or shot, and doesn't get dirty in front of the net. He's slow and safe. What is he going to bring to the PP that the rest can't?

And no! I don't give a shit what he's on pace for. On pace isn't results, but based on some illusionary projection that literally changes game by game. Please don't embarrass yourselves with the use of "on pace" talk that's reminiscent of the main board threads, which most times become a laughing stock for the OP when it doesn't pan out. I care about production, but even more than that, I care like they look like they have the skill to just be a Top 6 leader on the team. These kids are the future and will be our vets someday (if they don't get traded for Kane ), but there's no telling what the team will look like if/when they actually get their shit completely together.

But please go on worrying about the PP. Christ, we're arguing over 2-minute man advantages making or breaking players...

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

I called it the Cult of Lafreniere about a week ago, because this thread feels exactly like that. I've never seen so many excuses for one player. Not even Kakko.

They make excuses about his age and that he needs to "grow into his body", yet there are younger players who have surpassed his production, and who lead by example in their young ages because they've shown they have the skill to do so.

They make excuses that the organization doesn't develop their young players, but the definition of development to the CoL is that he get PP minutes to pad his stats. At most the organization will let you know what you need to work on, but it's Laf that needs to find a reputable coach to strengthen his shortfalls, and that shit isn't happening in the middle of the season.

They make excuses that he doesn't get enough time on ice, and that he needs to play with vets to excel. I think that's counter to what is defined as elite in the NHL. The elite separate themselves from others, no matter what line they're on. And to add to that, Laf has been on a line with Zib and Bread and STILL looked mediocre to average.

They make excuses that he doesn't get enough PP1 time and would rather switch out someone in the top 5 of scoring on this team (someone who hasn't been scoring 3 points a game for the last week or whateve) for Laf, when even Kakko looks rungs about him. The excuse for Kakko looking better, as said in this thread, is because Kakko has a year on him, but fail to acknowledge that, again, there are younger players that just look better.

The excuses just don't seem to end, but even in this thread, they will turn around and ridicule a 20-year old Stutzle for being a defensive liability. A guy like him doesn't rate the same excuses that our boy Laf gets. I've never seen a soon to be millionaire hockey player held to the bosom as much as Laf has. It's straight up cringe.

There is nothing wrong with him. He played very well this year with Trocheck/Panarin. You’re repeatedly nutting over Tim Stutzle who has the exact same amount of 5v5 points as Laf and nearly the exact same p/60 as well (.03 difference). Stutzle plays every game with Giroux/Tkachuk/Batherson on his line. All we need to do is get Laf away from Ben Harpur and back with good players that he worked well with (the exact same thing we just did with Kakko that immediately resulted in 3 points in 2 games).

 

[mas0764]

Guy- you must be of the generation who thinks everything in life is just handed to them on a platter.

Which generation is that? The boomers?

You can’t even identify one thing beyond “passing”( yeah because he’s racking up the assist at alarming rates…) that he does well.

He does pass well, it is his decisiveness and confidence that is lacking.

Things that will get better with reps.

You want him given powerplay time when the powerplay ranks in the top 50% in the league without him, you espouse nonsense on this point over and over again and expect others to roll over to the “play the long game because it’s all about development” argument. Let me wake you up to a little fact some of us get. NHL hockey is about winning games.

Let me wake you up to a little fact: Wrong, NHL hockey and in fact all professional sports is about winning Championships, not regular season games.

You need to develop your ace talents into stars in order to do that. The Rangers have shown rather definitively that the core they have isn't good enough to overcome the elite of the league without Kakko, Laf, and maybe other kids as well all becoming stars.

Yes, it is about the long game, no, that's not nonsense.

It’s not about glorifying someone’s ego, “developing” them into anything. It’s about wins. It’s that simple- you win a game things are good.

This has nothing to do with anyone's ego.

In fact, I'm saying guys like Panarin, Kreider, and Zibanejad should maybe sacrifice their ego a little bit. It's your position that results in catering to the ego of the established stars.

Laf could score 40 this year, next year, 8 years from now— whatever. Literally none of that will be because he’s used in the powerplay this season, gifted ice time he’s not deserved,

No, that's not true.

Getting exposure to reps develops skills.

Like everywhere in the real world.

put in places despite what’s best for the team

Lafreniere developing is best for the team.

 

[will1066]

I called it the Cult of Lafreniere about a week ago, because this thread feels exactly like that. I've never seen so many excuses for one player. Not even Kakko.

They make excuses about his age and that he needs to "grow into his body", yet there are younger players who have surpassed his production, and who lead by example in their young ages because they've shown they have the skill to do so.

They make excuses that the organization doesn't develop their young players, but the definition of development to the CoL is that he get PP minutes to pad his stats. At most the organization will let you know what you need to work on, but it's Laf that needs to find a reputable coach to strengthen his shortfalls, and that shit isn't happening in the middle of the season.

They make excuses that he doesn't get enough time on ice, and that he needs to play with vets to excel. I think that's counter to what is defined as elite in the NHL. The elite separate themselves from others, no matter what line they're on. And to add to that, Laf has been on a line with Zib and Bread and STILL looked mediocre to average.

They make excuses that he doesn't get enough PP1 time and would rather switch out someone in the top 5 of scoring on this team (someone who hasn't been scoring 3 points a game for the last week or whateve) for Laf, when even Kakko looks rungs about him. The excuse for Kakko looking better, as said in this thread, is because Kakko has a year on him, but fail to acknowledge that, again, there are younger players that just look better.

The excuses just don't seem to end, but even in this thread, they will turn around and ridicule a 20-year old Stutzle for being a defensive liability. A guy like him doesn't rate the same excuses that our boy Laf gets. I've never seen a soon to be millionaire hockey player held to the bosom as much as Laf has. It's straight up cringe.

I know some of this is aimed at me in response to what I said. So, in the words of Kevin O'Leary, you're dead to me.

But seriously, what's the point here? Is your goal to get people to agree that the organization made a mistake of selecting him or what? So Hughes has gone ahead and is looking better. So what? Lafreniere is here, he's not going anywhere at least for awhile, and the organization is not going to say what you want to hear -- that he sucks boars head ham.

He's a work in progress.

Comparisons are humans' way of trying to rationalize shit and make sense out of things that aren't scientific and to make these kids made of flesh and blood out to be engineered automatons.

 

[bhamill]

Jack Hughes scored at a 30 point pace in his rookie year. He was 2nd in PO TOI / 60 and 12th in PP points / 60. Is that “earning it”?

Correct. In fact Lafrenierre outscored Hughes 21 to 12 at EV in their D+1 seasons in 5 less games and 4 mins less a game. They each had 21 total points including pp scoring. One of them was consistently given pp time, more TOI and more responsibility. But in all fairness there wasn’t much blocking Hughes. It’s not like they had to take a Panarin or Mika off the pp to do that.

 

[mas0764]

the fixing reply was in regard to the PP1 unit.

I'm not really trying to fix the powerplay, my argument in this thread has been about what is necessary to develop the kids.

I would maintain that both Lafreniere and Kakko need increased PP1 time.

That does not mean it has to be permanent, nor does it mean they both have to go on PP1 together at the same time. Maybe that is the best idea, but maybe not.

What does need to happen is that something needs to change. Right now we have the 15th best powerplay, so it cannot credibly be argued that the power play is what is keeping us afloat, because the law of averages would say every other game we run into someone better than us on the power play. So I'm not worried about leaving the PP1 untouched at all costs.

I'm not trying to tear it apart, but I am insisting we acknowledge that the kids need more of a role on it.

If that means Trocheck needs to come off it for a few weeks, or Panarin needs to shift to a different role on it for a while, so be it. Guys like Fox and Panarin are elite players and will find similar success even if you put them in different spots. Maybe not quite efficient as they are now, but hey, maybe you find a secret sauce that is better, as well. It's not as if there is no room for improvement because we have seen around the league that 5 different players on 14 other teams are able to score at higher PP rates. So changes here to our PP1 could be positive. It's not like we are tearing down the top PP in the league. It can get better.

And as I said above, as something needs to change, the something is that the kids need more consistent and substantial time on the PP to speed along their offensive development, which I do believe will matter. I'm not saying "something needs to change," because I think the PP needs a desperate shakeup. I'm saying something needs to change because the kids need involvement so they can develop better.

there's still a lot of hockey left to be played. so maybe there is some good stuff that the kid might show unexpectedly.

There is some good stuff, look at Kakko and what he's showing right now despite no PP time.

On the other hand, look at Kakko and how long it's taken him to show anything with no PP time.

Kakko developing to where he has is mostly due to the fact that he's an elite talent and the calendar has been changing. He's 21. Of course he's getting better.

How we have handled him has not done him any favors. I'm not saying Kakko's slow development is ALL the team's fault and not any of his own fault (same for Lafreniere by the way), but if you had to pick one party whose fault it is more, it's the team's coaching/handling.

 

[ReddestRum]

There is nothing wrong with him. He played very well this year with Trocheck/Panarin. You’re repeatedly nutting over Tim Stutzle who has the exact same amount of 5v5 points as Laf and nearly the exact same p/60 as well (.03 difference). Stutzle plays every game with Giroux/Tkachuk/Batherson on his line. All we need to do is get Laf away from Ben Harpur and back with good players that he worked well with (the exact same thing we just did with Kakko that immediately resulted in 3 points in 2 games).

Kakko has 8 points in his last 11. 5 goals in that span. He's also registering more than less than a shot a game in his last 5, thankfully. Even when he's not putting up points, he works hard. Has good hands. Wins a shitload of puck battles on the wall. Knows how to give himself room. We've seen Laf with as good of players on his line as we can give him and still maintain some semblance of balance. It doesn't last long, because we're just a team where if the vets are playing off each other, almost nothing gets done. So the lines get switched up time and time again. Then Laf finds himself on the 3rd line, which is fine with me right now. Right where he belongs.

I know some of this is aimed at me in response to what I said. So, in the words of Kevin O'Leary, you're dead to me.

But seriously, what's the point here? Is your goal to get people to agree that the organization a mistake of selecting him or what? So Hughes has gone ahead and is looking better. So what? Lafreniere is here, he's not going anywhere at least for awhile, and the organization is not going to say what you want to hear -- that he sucks boars head ham.

He's a work in progress.

Comparisons are humans' way of trying to rationalize shit and make sense out of things that aren't scientific and to make these kids made of flesh and blood to be engineered automatons.

Different views, but we're both hoping for the same outcome. You're not dead to me, Will.

 

[Rangers in 7]

Holy shit... Kreids, Zib, and Bread are considered top league players even when they're not on the PP!! For guys like Zib and Bread, the PP compliments their stats, but doesn't define them. They have the skill to be offensive threats no matter where you put them. Laf can't pass like Bread, doesn't have Zib's hands or shot, and doesn't get dirty in front of the net. He's slow and safe. What is he going to bring to the PP that the rest can't?

And no! I don't give a shit what he's on pace for. On pace isn't results, but based on some illusionary projection that literally changes game by game. Please don't embarrass yourselves with the use of "on pace" talk that's reminiscent of the main board threads, which most times become a laughing stock for the OP when it doesn't pan out. I care about production, but even more than that, I care like they look like they have the skill to just be a Top 6 leader on the team. These kids are the future and will be our vets someday (if they don't get traded for Kane ), but there's no telling what the team will look like if/when they actually get their shit completely together.

But please go on worrying about the PP. Christ, we're arguing over 2-minute man advantages making or breaking players...

kreider, zib and panarin are all elite players because they play on the PP. you wouldn’t exactly be very happy with their numbers if they weren’t racking up the points on the PP

 

[mas0764]

And if they struggle? Then they sink faster. It works both ways.

No.....?

People don't usually get worse from practice and repetition.

 

[ReddestRum]

kreider, zib and panarin are all elite players because they play on the PP. you wouldn’t exactly be very happy with their numbers if they weren’t racking up the points on the PP

Yeah.. I think we're at a point where it's just dumb to keep going now. This is just... wow.

 

[will1066]

Kakko has 8 points in his last 11. 5 goals in that span. He's also registering more than less than a shot a game in his last 5, thankfully. Even when he's not putting up points, he works hard. Has good hands. Wins a shitload of puck battles on the wall. Knows how to give himself room. We've seen Laf with as good of players on his line as we can give him and still maintain some semblance of balance. It doesn't last long, because we're just a team where if the vets are playing off each other, almost nothing gets done. So the lines get switched up time and time again. Then Laf finds himself on the 3rd line, which is fine with me right now. Right where he belongs.



Different views, but we're both hoping for the same outcome. You're not dead to me, Will.

Lol you're right. We both want the same outcome. It sucks that he's not immediately being all-world. I still think it's too early to reach a final verdict. If he busts, it will be a terrible thing, but nothing ever is guaranteed for anyone.

 

[Rangers in 7]

Yeah.. I think we're at a point where it's just dumb to keep going now. This is just... wow.

kreider has 13 5 v 5 points this year to laf’s 14 so tell me how dumb this argument is?

 

[ReddestRum]

Lol you're right. We both want the same outcome. It sucks that he's not immediately being all-world. I still think it's too early to reach a final verdict. If he busts, it will be a terrible thing, but nothing ever is guaranteed for anyone.

I've never, ever said that Laf was a bust. He's far from a bust. Kakko looks like he's heading in the right direction, but is it enough? Is what Chy puts up enough? Some people can't live with the idea that our 1OA and 2OA are just regular joe-schmoes. I'm setting my expectations low. I'd rather be wrong and eat crow, than be hopeful and be even more pissed because if the kids don't work out, it'll turn into the dark ages here.

We're in a tough spot. With the talent we have, we're expected to go deep in the playoffs. At the same time, we need to look towards the future and decide if we're going to sell for rents to keep pushing the playoffs narrative or do we take a chance at a decade or more building around the kids who might never mature to be the leaders we need them to be.

 

[mas0764]

I've never, ever said that Laf was a bust. He's far from a bust. Kakko looks like he's heading in the right direction, but is it enough? Is what Chy puts up enough? Some people can't live with the idea that our 1OA and 2OA are just regular joe-schmoes. I'm setting my expectations low. I'd rather be wrong and eat crow, than be hopeful and be even more pissed because if the kids don't work out, it'll turn into the dark ages here.

We're in a tough spot. With the talent we have, we're expected to go deep in the playoffs. At the same time, we need to look towards the future and decide if we're going to sell for rents to keep pushing the playoffs narrative or do we take a chance at a decade or more building around the kids who might never mature to be the leaders we need them to be.

That's not a tough spot. It's an easy answer.

This team isn't a Cup winner. Keep building for the future.

Don't buy. If anything, sell.

We will get another Panarin if we need in 5+ years. We won the Gaborik bidding, we could win the Johnny Gaudreau bidding any year we had cap space too. Landing elite free agents is not our problem.

Developing home grown stars, especially centers, is our issue. Do that first.

 

[will1066]

I've never, ever said that Laf was a bust. He's far from a bust. Kakko looks like he's heading in the right direction, but is it enough? Is what Chy puts up enough? Some people can't live with the idea that our 1OA and 2OA are just regular joe-schmoes. I'm setting my expectations low. I'd rather be wrong and eat crow, than be hopeful and be even more pissed because if the kids don't work out, it'll turn into the dark ages here.

We're in a tough spot. With the talent we have, we're expected to go deep in the playoffs. At the same time, we need to look towards the future and decide if we're going to sell for rents to keep pushing the playoffs narrative or do we take a chance at a decade or more building around the kids who might never mature to be the leaders we need them to be.

No, I didn't mean that you said he will bust. I mean if he ends up busting, it will suck for us and the organization, but it's not the first time or the last time.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

I'm not really trying to fix the powerplay, my argument in this thread has been about what is necessary to develop the kids.

I would maintain that both Lafreniere and Kakko need increased PP1 time.

That does not mean it has to be permanent, nor does it mean they both have to go on PP1 together at the same time. Maybe that is the best idea, but maybe not.

What does need to happen is that something needs to change. Right now we have the 15th best powerplay, so it cannot credibly be argued that the power play is what is keeping us afloat, because the law of averages would say every other game we run into someone better than us on the power play. So I'm not worried about leaving the PP1 untouched at all costs.

I'm not trying to tear it apart, but I am insisting we acknowledge that the kids need more of a role on it.

If that means Trocheck needs to come off it for a few weeks, or Panarin needs to shift to a different role on it for a while, so be it. Guys like Fox and Panarin are elite players and will find similar success even if you put them in different spots. Maybe not quite efficient as they are now, but hey, maybe you find a secret sauce that is better, as well. It's not as if there is no room for improvement because we have seen around the league that 5 different players on 14 other teams are able to score at higher PP rates. So changes here to our PP1 could be positive. It's not like we are tearing down the top PP in the league. It can get better.

And as I said above, as something needs to change, the something is that the kids need more consistent and substantial time on the PP to speed along their offensive development, which I do believe will matter. I'm not saying "something needs to change," because I think the PP needs a desperate shakeup. I'm saying something needs to change because the kids need involvement so they can develop better.



There is some good stuff, look at Kakko and what he's showing right now despite no PP time.

On the other hand, look at Kakko and how long it's taken him to show anything with no PP time.

Kakko developing to where he has is mostly due to the fact that he's an elite talent and the calendar has been changing. He's 21. Of course he's getting better.

How we have handled him has not done him any favors. I'm not saying Kakko's slow development is ALL the team's fault and not any of his own fault (same for Lafreniere by the way), but if you had to pick one party whose fault it is more, it's the team's coaching/handling.

"If that means Trocheck needs to come off it for a few weeks,"

the unit has been clicking with a new guy that has more than adequately replaced strome on the unit and you're suggesting he should come off that unit? and for a few week? da phuck!!!

kakko is doing grinding work that facilitates the line he is on to get space and chances to do damage. and this season he's doing it real well. but you might want to refrain from using the word elite when referencing kakko. the word elite should be used to refer to players such as kucherov, mackinnon, mcdavid, etc.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

He was on one of the worst teams in recent NHL history. Yeah he probably did earn it over most of the other garbage that was on that team.

Guys, one more time- all playing on the powerplay does is artificially inflate point totals. That’s it- you don’t learn to play better at 5 on 5, you don’t learn to defend better, you don’t learn how to position yourself better, you don’t learn how to transition from offense to defense better- you don’t develop. You just maybe have a better shot at getting points because most of the time it does increase that and if you want to extrapolate that to mean maybe Laf would have more confidence than ok I’ll concede that. Once again though, developing as a hockey player does not mean you get more points because you are on the powerplay. It’s like we are having two different conversations here. Developing as a player means your all around game improves and you take ownership of your own destiny by meaningfully contributing in the roles you are given( like Kappo is doing right now.)

So let’s try this- what had Laf done to earn this top powerplay unit time so many want? He’s never drastically improved in an offseason, he’s never even had a memorable goal as a Ranger. He’s largely invisible most games, can’t break out of the bottom
3 forwards, seems to be regressing and has done 0 to make himself standout except in negative ways. I’ve asked this question earlier in this thread and all I got was some skirting around and attacking my points but beside “he’s a top pick” and some random assertion that he’s a “good passer” no one can give me anything in actual reality.

I flat out reject the argument that the organization should sacrifice this window we have now so we can “see what we have in Laf.” That’s absolute nonsense. The Rangers have a chance to win this season. Is it a great chance- not really but it’s certainly not worth throwing away considering they have many pieces in place now to contend.


Exactly- but don’t try and add in relevant facts or actual analysis here because half these guys would stand mouth agape unable to utter a word if they even saw Laf from 20
feet away they are in so much love with the guy.

The idea that trust, confidence, and usage has no impact on how a human being develops in athletics or really any endeavor flies in the face of everything we know regarding human performance.

You and many other Lafreniere “skeptics” seem to believe that these human beings get dropped on the ice and perform as they were born to perform and external factors have no impact on what they are capable of. I reject that.

Correct. In fact Lafrenierre outscored Hughes 21 to 12 at EV in their D+1 seasons in 5 less games and 4 mins less a game. They each had 21 total points including pp scoring. One of them was consistently given pp time, more TOI and more responsibility. But in all fairness there wasn’t much blocking Hughes. It’s not like they had to take a Panarin or Mika off the pp to do that.

Completely agree. And I’m not saying, and never have said, that they should move Mika/Panarin/Kreider off the PP for Lafreniere.

I am saying that Lafreniere has had to walk a different road than any 1OA pick I can think of. And that his performance should be evaluated in that context. And that it is possible it has had an impact on the player you see on the ice today.