Player Discussion Alexis Lafrenière

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

There is a way to work Kakko and/or Lafreniere into a power play that features Zibanejad, Panarin and Fox you know. It just won’t have Zibanejad in the same old one timer spot he’s always in.

yeah we know.

but we and everybody else knows what zib is going to do. but guess what? still have to try and stop it.

just checked the past 3 seasons. each season top 10 in PPG's. this season currently at 4th place.

to slot in laffy/kakko into that unit and disrupt that productivity? why man? then again if it would appease you maybe try it a couple of times when we're up by a blowout just to see what would happen during garbage time.

 

[bhamill]

I stand by my "participation award" statement

I never said anything about camaraderie and I'm not worked up.

It's just seems like sad, coddling to a player who needs to be WAYYYYYYY better than he has been.

Coach or PP or linemates or whatever

He needs to be WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better

& FYI I own a Laff jersey so don't tell me I personally dislike him.

I am however SEVERELY disappointed by him (anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves)

Well, I said “seem”… I don’t presume to be inside your head. I don’t think it was a wild take given your disposition in the post, though message boards aren’t renowned for nuance… BUT if I misrepresented your position, you have my apology. I’m not here to troll or insult anyone, disagreement or not.
I’d like to see WAY more from him as well, and I’m pretty sure we will. Also pretty sure it will not be quickly enough for a lot of folks.
As far as the game hat itself: I think it has its place and has become a part of part of the locker room camaraderie/culture. Participation trophy is an odd framing. That’s given to everyone who participates. This is a singling out. His teammates saw fit to do it, that is a positive sign to me. Viewpoints vary I suppose.

 

[bhamill]

I mean if he looked like phil kessel thats one thing but he's in good shape, not sure how you came to that idea.

Pretty simple. I came by it through observing that his strength and conditioning do not seem to have improved much in 2 plus years. And his effectiveness suffers for it. I never said he was a doughball. Hahaha. Again it’s not an indictment to say he’s still learning how to be an NHLer.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Pretty simple. I came by it through observing that his strength and conditioning do not seem to have improved much in 2 plus years. And his effectiveness suffers for it. I never said he was a doughball. Hahaha. Again it’s not an indictment to say he’s still learning how to be an NHLer.

It's an indictment if you are insinuating he isn't putting in the work which by all acounts he is.

 

[ReddestRum]

I've never seen any other fanbase so incessant over forcing an undeserving player onto a top PP while trying to do mental gymnastics to find ways to move proven players off of it. I can't believe some of you still don't see how crazy the idea is. People really think this kid's elite potential will be dictated by having man advantage time. That it will suddenly move him up a notch. He won't get the time. Not now. Not ever. Not while there are vets ahead of him that are the PP, and two other young players in front of him who look more capable to run on it. These aren't preseason games we're talking about here. For some of you, if Laf doesn't cut it, it won't be because he just doesn't have the skill to play at an elite level, it'll be the f'n PP. LOL. I can't not laugh hearing myself say it.

 

[redwhiteandblue]

For every single other 1OA pick I can think of (that was unproven at the NHL level), this is exactly how it works. Pretty disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Now that is because usually they step onto the worst or one of the worst rosters in the league.

I can certainly understand why the NYR have done what they have done. Why the coaching staff whose career is primarily dependant on winning today, has handled this the way they have. But the end result is Lafreniere has walked a different path than basically any other 1OA pick has had to walk. To say it's purely on him for not "making the first powerplay unit" is ludicrous.

I cannot like this post enough. But you are talking with way too much reason and logic for this place.

 

[McRanger92]

I've never seen any other fanbase so incessant over forcing an undeserving player onto a top PP while trying to do mental gymnastics to find ways to move proven players off of it. I can't believe some of you still don't see how crazy the idea is. People really think this kid's elite potential will be dictated by having man advantage time. That it will suddenly move him up a notch. He won't get the time. Not now. Not ever. Not while there are vets ahead of him that are the PP, and two other young players in front of him who look more capable to run on it. These aren't preseason games we're talking about here. For some of you, if Laf doesn't cut it, it won't be because he just doesn't have the skill to play at an elite level, it'll be the f'n PP. LOL. I can't not laugh hearing myself say it.

What I will never understand is the segment of our fanbase that claims the rebuild was a sham because the players we've drafted since the letter went out have not turned into stars at age 23 and under. Shouldnt the fact that we made a run last year and are very much in the mix to go deep again this year AND have a ton of 24 and under talent be seen as a good thing? Thats how you get sustained winning for a decade. The kids will get there in time, stop being so damn impatient.

 

[IDvsEGO]

What I will never understand is the segment of our fanbase that claims the rebuild was a sham because the players we've drafted since the letter went out have not turned into stars at age 23 and under. Shouldnt the fact that we made a run last year and are very much in the mix to go deep again this year AND have a ton of 24 and under talent be seen as a good thing? Thats how you get sustained winning for a decade. The kids will get there in time, stop being so damn impatient.

The rangers are one of the youngest rosters in the league. The only team in the top 10 of youngest rosters in the playoffs currently aside from us are the devils (who seem to be faltering hard).

 

[bhamill]

It's an indictment if you are insinuating he isn't putting in the work which by all acounts he is.

I’m saying there are levels. And neither of us knows for sure what he is doing.
What would your explanation be for the apparent lack of improvement in strength and conditioning? It’s not an indictment to say he’s still learning. Whether it’s how to play on the ice as an NHLer or how to train off it as one. If you insist on taking it that way there is zero I can do about that.

 

[cheech70]

It was a nice gester that Laf got the Game hat last night...not sure why?...but the team is pulling for him

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

I've never seen any other fanbase so incessant over forcing an undeserving player onto a top PP while trying to do mental gymnastics to find ways to move proven players off of it. I can't believe some of you still don't see how crazy the idea is. People really think this kid's elite potential will be dictated by having man advantage time. That it will suddenly move him up a notch. He won't get the time. Not now. Not ever. Not while there are vets ahead of him that are the PP, and two other young players in front of him who look more capable to run on it. These aren't preseason games we're talking about here. For some of you, if Laf doesn't cut it, it won't be because he just doesn't have the skill to play at an elite level, it'll be the f'n PP. LOL. I can't not laugh hearing myself say it.

Take all of Mika's powerplay points away from him. Where does that put him? 24 points. On pace for 47 points.

He would be getting f***ing obliterated on here if he was on pace for 47 points.

PP matters a HELL of a lot more than you are giving it credit for, especially when everyone on here and all over the place only care about point production and that's it.

 

[LokiDog]

Take all of Mika's powerplay points away from him. Where does that put him? 24 points. On pace for 47 points.

He would be getting f***ing obliterated on here if he was on pace for 47 points.

PP matters a HELL of a lot more than you are giving it credit for, especially when everyone on here and all over the place only care about point production and that's it.

But the notion that PP time is just gifted to any good prospect is also not accurate. You have to produce with the minutes you’re given. Most of these guys - even Stutzle and Zegras - are eased into lineups. They just quickly move to top lines and PP minutes because they SHOW what they’re expected to show. PP time is important. But you want your best players on it. You bring an 18 or even 21 year old kid onto your roster and give him 12-15 minutes the first handful of games, you’re only promoting him to the bigger minutes if he’s showing the skillset you expected. Stutzle has to come in and rush the puck a few times a game and attack the net, even if he’s lacking in his all around game - if he just comes and plays passive hockey and does NOTHING when the puck is on his stick, he doesn’t end up playing 17-18 minutes. Do you ever watch a Rangers game and you think “boy, Lafreniere looks OBVIOUSLY more talented than Zibanejad? Panarin? Fox?” if you say yes, you’re lying. He doesn’t. Ever. No coach in the NHL would put him on our top PP. Guys like Mercer or Sillinger don’t get gifted minutes, they force their way into them. Laf just doesn’t move the needle. If I was an NHL coach watching a bunch of players with no names on their jerseys over a month stretch, and I was asked what to do with the guy wearing #13, without knowing anything about his draft status or age, I would be WAY more likely to put him on my 4th line than anywhere near my top six. I’d imagine most people in that situation would judge the same.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I've never seen any other fanbase so incessant over forcing an undeserving player onto a top PP while trying to do mental gymnastics to find ways to move proven players off of it. I can't believe some of you still don't see how crazy the idea is. People really think this kid's elite potential will be dictated by having man advantage time. That it will suddenly move him up a notch. He won't get the time. Not now. Not ever. Not while there are vets ahead of him that are the PP, and two other young players in front of him who look more capable to run on it. These aren't preseason games we're talking about here. For some of you, if Laf doesn't cut it, it won't be because he just doesn't have the skill to play at an elite level, it'll be the f'n PP. LOL. I can't not laugh hearing myself say it.

Saying the NYR vets deserve the lions share of PP time is a reasonable take.

But when you also scoff at the idea of comparing Lafreniere to his peers using even strength P/60, as you did earlier in the thread, it comes across as being hypocritical just to be a hater.

Over the last 2 seasons Stutzle has 49 even strength points to Lafreniere's 45 (despite playing 200 more total minutes). Stutzle is "a star" because he stepped onto the ice at 18 and was given ~3 min / game of PP time. And I guess he shows up on Instagram more.

But the notion that PP time is just gifted to any good prospect is also not accurate. You have to produce with the minutes you’re given. Most of these guys - even Stutzle and Zegras - are eased into lineups. They just quickly move to top lines and PP minutes because they SHOW what they’re expected to show. PP time is important. But you want your best players on it. Do you ever watch a Rangers game and you think “boy, Lafreniere looks OBVIOUSLY more talented than Zibanejad? Panarin? Fox?” if you say yes, you’re lying. He doesn’t. Ever. No coach in the NHL would put him on our top PP. Guys like Mercer or Sillinger don’t get gifted minutes, they force their way into them. Laf just doesn’t move the needle. If I was an NHL coach watching a bunch of players with no names on their jerseys over a month stretch, and I was asked what to do with the guy wearing #13, without knowing anything about his draft status or age, I would be WAY more likely to put him on my 4th line than anywhere near my top six. I’d imagine most people in that situation would judge the same.

What you are saying just is not the case with many top top picks. We aren't talking about first rounders we are talking about 1OAs.

In his rookie year Jack Hughes scored 21 points total and was given over 3 min of PP time per game, second among skaters on the Devils. He was 12th on the team in PP points / 60.

 

[LORDE]

Its not a participation award... Its recognizing a teammate.
It goes on in EVERY team, at almost every level, and has for decades under different guises.

This is the most "hockey culture" argument I've ever seen. Ignoring this has been part of hockey culture for decades.

Culture? One could argue that the "culture" of this team is precisely what the issue is.

Again, my issue isn't the broadway hat or any other traditions...

it's coddling a #1 overall who's play has been SHIT... who's been a healthy scratch... who's looking more and more like a bust...

Not less and less.

or even showing flashes...

MORE & MORE LIKE A BUST

That is killing our chances at hardware

Mediocrity IS the culture of the NYR...

So let's recognize and reward it

Its not coddling. The player who had the hat previously chooses it (sometimes theres a suggestion from the captain - which might be the case this time), the coach has no input on it.
This wasn't coddling, this was a shot at gallant recognizing the kid got sat because the team sucked, and the kid was the victim.
Laf wasn't good against washington, but there were 4 players who werent bad that night.
Laf got sat because he was called out even though he was no worse than anyone else.

So his teammates who actually like him, made it a point to show "hey we know what happened, and wanted to make it clear you got messed with unfairly"

Laf deserved to be a healthy scratch REGARDLESS of how many other players were bad

I would've sat him against FL also

Hell I'd have sent him to Hartford about 5 times throughout his career already

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

But the notion that PP time is just gifted to any good prospect is also not accurate. You have to produce with the minutes you’re given. Most of these guys - even Stutzle and Zegras - are eased into lineups. They just quickly move to top lines and PP minutes because they SHOW what they’re expected to show. PP time is important. But you want your best players on it. You bring an 18 or even 21 year old kid onto your roster and give him 12-15 minutes the first handful of games, you’re only promoting him to the bigger minutes if he’s showing the skillset you expected. Stutzle has to come in and rush the puck a few times a game and attack the net, even if he’s lacking in his all around game - if he just comes and plays passive hockey and does NOTHING when the puck is on his stick, he doesn’t end up playing 17-18 minutes. Do you ever watch a Rangers game and you think “boy, Lafreniere looks OBVIOUSLY more talented than Zibanejad? Panarin? Fox?” if you say yes, you’re lying. He doesn’t. Ever. No coach in the NHL would put him on our top PP. Guys like Mercer or Sillinger don’t get gifted minutes, they force their way into them. Laf just doesn’t move the needle. If I was an NHL coach watching a bunch of players with no names on their jerseys over a month stretch, and I was asked what to do with the guy wearing #13, without knowing anything about his draft status or age, I would be WAY more likely to put him on my 4th line than anywhere near my top six. I’d imagine most people in that situation would judge the same.

I wasn't really arguing for putting him on the top unit over anyone currently there - more arguing that him getting basically zero PP time is going to impact his production. And dramatically as well. It matters. Production matters probably more than anything else to most people on these boards.

I agree completely that he has lots of room to grow to reach his potential, trust me, it is concerning. But back to my reply that that original post, it came off as basically saying the PP time didnt matter. I completely disagree there and I think it matters a lot as it has huge implications on his production, which he is heavily judged on.

 

[mas0764]

For every single other 1OA pick I can think of (that was unproven at the NHL level), this is exactly how it works. Pretty disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Now that is because usually they step onto the worst or one of the worst rosters in the league.

I can certainly understand why the NYR have done what they have done. Why the coaching staff whose career is primarily dependant on winning today, has handled this the way they have. But the end result is Lafreniere has walked a different path than basically any other 1OA pick has had to walk. To say it's purely on him for not "making the first powerplay unit" is ludicrous.

And it's incumbent upon the administration to understand this and to make it clear to the coaching staff that winning every last game isn't the ultimate goal, that winning a Cup is, and that the (correct) belief of the front office is that they need Laf and Kakko to develop into stars for that to happen.

 

[LORDE]

I've never seen any other fanbase so incessant over forcing an undeserving player onto a top PP while trying to do mental gymnastics to find ways to move proven players off of it. I can't believe some of you still don't see how crazy the idea is. People really think this kid's elite potential will be dictated by having man advantage time. That it will suddenly move him up a notch. He won't get the time. Not now. Not ever. Not while there are vets ahead of him that are the PP, and two other young players in front of him who look more capable to run on it. These aren't preseason games we're talking about here. For some of you, if Laf doesn't cut it, it won't be because he just doesn't have the skill to play at an elite level, it'll be the f'n PP. LOL. I can't not laugh hearing myself say it.

Can't like this post enough

 

[LORDE]

But the notion that PP time is just gifted to any good prospect is also not accurate. You have to produce with the minutes you’re given. Most of these guys - even Stutzle and Zegras - are eased into lineups. They just quickly move to top lines and PP minutes because they SHOW what they’re expected to show. PP time is important. But you want your best players on it. You bring an 18 or even 21 year old kid onto your roster and give him 12-15 minutes the first handful of games, you’re only promoting him to the bigger minutes if he’s showing the skillset you expected. Stutzle has to come in and rush the puck a few times a game and attack the net, even if he’s lacking in his all around game - if he just comes and plays passive hockey and does NOTHING when the puck is on his stick, he doesn’t end up playing 17-18 minutes. Do you ever watch a Rangers game and you think “boy, Lafreniere looks OBVIOUSLY more talented than Zibanejad? Panarin? Fox?” if you say yes, you’re lying. He doesn’t. Ever. No coach in the NHL would put him on our top PP. Guys like Mercer or Sillinger don’t get gifted minutes, they force their way into them. Laf just doesn’t move the needle. If I was an NHL coach watching a bunch of players with no names on their jerseys over a month stretch, and I was asked what to do with the guy wearing #13, without knowing anything about his draft status or age, I would be WAY more likely to put him on my 4th line than anywhere near my top six. I’d imagine most people in that situation would judge the same.

f***ing eh!

Spot on

Great post

 

[mas0764]

to slot in laffy/kakko into that unit and disrupt that productivity? why man?

To get more productivity across the board?

Did you think I'm suggesting tinkering with the PP to tank or something?

Putting Lafreniere (or Kakko) on PP1 isn't some favor we are doing to the kids cause they are such swell people. This is how they get better, faster.

then again if it would appease you maybe try it a couple of times when we're up by a blowout just to see what would happen during garbage time.

Or maybe try it for an entire game when you play Philadelphia, Columbus, or any team that's outside the playoffs. We should be able to handle those teams.

Again, I haven't said the entire existence of PP1 has to be eliminated. But it doesn't have to be endlessly the same 5 guys in the same 5 spots in perpetuity.

 

[haveandare]

Then it's meaningless and they should stop the tradition.

It's a participation award in the top ice hockey league on the planet now?

f***ing pathetic

Or, crazy idea, it’s based on team dynamics that every rando on the Internet isn’t privy to.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

To get more productivity across the board?

the productivity should be coming from his assignment, and that's playing on the 3rd line. he already has trouble with that as is. so when he does finally sorta figure that out then yeah maybe coach will throw him a bone here and there.

Did you think I'm suggesting tinkering with the PP to tank or something?

Putting Lafreniere (or Kakko) on PP1 isn't some favor we are doing to the kids cause they are such swell people. This is how they get better, faster.



Or maybe try it for an entire game when you play Philadelphia, Columbus, or any team that's outside the playoffs. We should be able to handle those teams.

Again, I haven't said the entire existence of PP1 has to be eliminated. But it doesn't have to be endlessly the same 5 guys in the same 5 spots in perpetuity.

ya don't fix something that isn't broken. if it's a fail like early last season in time that will self heal.

yes on paper we should wipe the floor with those non playoff contending teams. but then again games are actually played out on the rinks, not on sheets of paper.

let's use philly as an example. yeah we know on paper overall they suck. but here's the thing - i don't take any team for granted. if we're scheduled against the flyers my concern is whether or not hayes, konecky, van riem, or someone else that's capable of inflicting damage at anytime is going to our team's ass real good. so unless we have a substantial lead in a game against such opposition no way i'm tweaking that PP1.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Saying the NYR vets deserve the lions share of PP time is a reasonable take.

But when you also scoff at the idea of comparing Lafreniere to his peers using even strength P/60, as you did earlier in the thread, it comes across as being hypocritical just to be a hater.

Over the last 2 seasons Stutzle has 49 even strength points to Lafreniere's 45 (despite playing 200 more total minutes). Stutzle is "a star" because he stepped onto the ice at 18 and was given ~3 min / game of PP time. And I guess he shows up on Instagram more.



What you are saying just is not the case with many top top picks. We aren't talking about first rounders we are talking about 1OAs.

In his rookie year Jack Hughes scored 21 points total and was given over 3 min of PP time per game, second among skaters on the Devils. He was 12th on the team in PP points / 60.

This also has direct consequences on the 'flashes' you see or don't see from a player. More minutes, and especially power play minutes, means more touches. Playing on a team not trying to win means more room for trial and error, cheating for offense. All of that feeds a players offensive confidence which in turn leads to more aggressive play and learning to leverage your particular skillset. Not to mention it just means that there's more flash to be seen in terms of pure quantity.

Not too long ago I was defending the 'flashless' Kakko with the same reasoning. I was sold on the kids skillset when I had the chance to watch him from ice level here in Chicago, and even in warmups it was apparent that no one on the roster, except MAYBE, Panarin had hands comparable to this kid. It didn't lead to much in the game, but it was still obvious throughout that the kid was a special talent. Then there were his own teammates saying they'd pick him over anyone in a shootout.

 

[huerter]

Take all of Mika's powerplay points away from him. Where does that put him? 24 points. On pace for 47 points.

He would be getting f***ing obliterated on here if he was on pace for 47 points.

PP matters a HELL of a lot more than you are giving it credit for, especially when everyone on here and all over the place only care about point production and that's it.

Points schmoints.

 

[bleedblue94]

I agree and it's also a giant hug for a kid they think got/is getting a bad shake. Kid is loved in the room for sure.

But he also needs to grow up. Right now he's kind of in a paradox of being a whipping boy by the coaching staff and then having a mother hugging him and coddling him all the time with the way the players treat him. The kid needs to grow up and start to own his own career

Believe it or not, that's a coaching strategy. Desperate, but it is what it is.

Keenan, Billy Martin, Bobby Knight.

Whatever it takes for the team to come together with a common hate.

No you're wrong, the guys would do that to the main players on a team because they knew the impact it would have by doing that kind of stuff one of the core guys rather than going and picking out a a secondary or third level piece. It's not effective when you go after the little ones, it's effective when you go after the big dogs.

Keenan didn't try to bench Mike Hartman to make an impact to the rest of the team during the cup run, he benched leech. That's the difference

 

[huerter]

Ryan Young is a big man for Duke. I liked him a lot in high school however he was ranked by recruiting services in the 300's of his class. He committed to Northwestern. The chances of a player in the 300's having success in the B1G is miniscule. He redshirted his first year. Imagine that, spending a year only practicing. Seems inhumane. Then he played 3 years at NW where he was solid but not exactly Luka Garza. He entered the portal and Duke brought him aboard. Why would he go to Duke just to be the next Patrick Tape? Buried behind all the elite 5* talent. Well that's not what's happening. He's playing more than the consensus #2 and #3 players in the freshmen class. Miracle? No, just merit.