Player Discussion Alain Vigneault: Part III

[Gordon Bombay]

This team has a metric ton of problems all over the ice. But it never ceases to amaze me how such a large portion of the fanbase can channel the ire to one man behind the bench. Quite frankly, it's lazy.

Quite frankly, the guy behind the bench has been absolutely terrible this year. 3 years ago plenty of us were clamoring that Torts should be getting more out of that team, while others, yourself included, told us how they couldn't play a "skill" game. The last 2 years they didn't look too bad playing a "skill" game.

This year's team obviously isn't as good as those 2 teams. But the square peg is trying to get back into that round hole with a different coach. AV hasn't changed much in 3 years. When you're a top team you have a target on your back, everyone is trying to beat you. You have to change it up a little to keep teams on edge or you have what Tampa did and what Pittsburgh is doing. Quite frankly, that is lazy.

And you wanna talk about lazy? All you ever do is play devil's advocate or tell us how the roster sucks. Add some insight would you? A lot of us given some smart ideas on lineups or changes to the style of play while you just tell us how we're wrong. We've sat here long enough watching AV be content doing nothing, which is what you seem to be okay with. The roster isn't as good as it's been but guess what? The coach has been the worst since the days of the Dark Ages and he could/should be getting more out of them but it either too stubborn or blind to see any of it. Since none of us should be channeling anything towards AV, I take it you think he's been a fine coach this year?

 

[Ail]

It'll have to be somebody willing to take over a declining squad and be blamed for the entire situation when they don't succeed.

Not really. The next coach will find themselves in the same position AV found himself in after Torts, a team with recent success that needs a new strategy. The only difference now is that the roster needs a bigger overhaul. I won't have many expectations for the new coach unless Gorton can do a good job cleaning up the roster mess, and that's going to be more than a season.

AV didn't get much blame or ire until this season when his coaching went off the rails completely. It happened to coincide with the roster also declining which probably also then exacerbated the flaws in AVs coaching.

You act like AV doesn't deserve most of this criticism and that the team is also being given a pass. Neither of which is true. People have been killing this roster all season. I don't want a coach who can't even use his roster properly anywhere near the next iteration of this team.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Not really. The next coach will find themselves in the same position AV found himself in after Torts, a team with recent success that needs a new strategy. The only difference now is that the roster needs a bigger overhaul. I won't have many expectations for the new coach unless Gorton can do a good job cleaning up the roster mess, and that's going to be more than a season.

AV didn't get much blame or ire until this season when his coaching went off the rails completely. It happened to coincide with the roster also declining which probably also then exacerbated the flaws in AVs coaching.

You act like AV doesn't deserve most of this criticism and that the team is also being given a pass. Neither of which is true. People have been killing this roster all season. I don't want a coach who can't even use his roster properly anywhere near the next iteration of this team.

Thats ********* and you know it. People have been killing 3 people on the roster all season, and the problems run much, much deeper than that.

 

[Tawnos]

This season, the makeup of the roster and the decline of certain roster elements has put AV in a nearly impossible situation. Not surprisingly, he didn't come up with the answers. I find it hard to blame him.

 

[Ail]

Thats ********* and you know it. People have been killing 3 people on the roster all season, and the problems run much, much deeper than that.

Glass - Obviously the worst, and has the most people on his back all year. Deservedly.

Girardi - It took awhile to get the ball rolling, but when people realized the stats weren't wrong, he started getting it every night.

Staal - Off and on all season, he gets a lot of **** but not as much as the other two.

Boyle - He was attacked all season by a certain contingent of the board, and many others joined in periodically game dependent.

Hayes - Pretty much got a pass for 1/3rd of the season, but still took a lot of **** most of the year. Obviously the caveat is he is young and will probably bounce back.

Kreider - up until maybe the last quarter or the year he was easily the most **** on Forward after Glass. If Hayes wasn't one season removed from a rookie Kreider may have gotten less than he.

Miller - Remember the first third of the season where every night was about another dumb Miller bonehead play?

Yandle - Took a lot of **** earlier in the season before the Girardi and Staal train really took off. This is mostly on AV for not even properly utilizing him. After that only a few people really continued.

McIlrath - I think AV took most of the heat over his play.

McDonagh - Got a lot of **** at the beginning of the year until he got rolling in to his old form.

Nash - Pretty much got **** on all season, even by people who defended him previously.

Fast - Not a lot of outcry, but again some people have it out for him.

Everyone else - Not a lot of criticism consistently.

So maybe 3 guys have gotten criticized the entire year, but almost every player on this team had a period where they were a target.

When did AV really start getting all of this vitriol? It wasn't all year that's for sure. Most of the fire AV bandwagon really amped up at the end of the season. Even when people were upset about McIlrath, only a few people went as far to say they seriously wanted him fired.

Edit: FWIW you also keep responding to the fire AV bandwagon as if everyone on board thinks firing him is magically going to fix this team by itself. I don't think anyone here actually believes that, and I've yet to see anyone say it. IF someone did say it, they are mistaken. AV needs to go, the roster needs a major overhaul/retool.

 

[Kimota]

I think game 5 will speak volumes.

I believe that the leadership in the room is weak, and the leadership from the coaching is weaker.

AV is in the mold of a Jaques Martin or a Roger Nielsen.

He's no Babcock, Quenville, or Sutter.

Something Babcock, Quenneville and Sutter have had: Fantastic squads. Always thought Quenneville in particular was overrated. I don't think the Hawks have a particular good system but they have a stacked team.

Let's face it, the Rangers have a pretty average roster. If anything guys like Torto and AV have done miracles pushing this team beyond their limits.

 

[Mikos87]

Something Babcock, Quenneville and Sutter have had: Fantastic squads. Always thought Quenneville in particular was overrated. I don't think the Hawks have a particular good system but they have a stacked team.

Let's face it, the Rangers have a pretty average roster. If anything guys like Torto and AV have done miracles pushing this team beyond their limits.

Disagree there, this years team I'll give you that it was a very weak roster in places where it couldn't afford to be, and lots of guys, older guys regressed as if they were on each other's cycle.

The coaching issue I have is with accountability and adjustments. Those three are pragmatic in their coaching, and effort is never ever questioned.

The Rangers under AV had questionable effort all season long. The only guys he held accountable were Hayes, Etem, and to a minor extent Dom Moore. It's not a meritocracy and that's where the respect is lost.

Did Rick Nash even play this year? I don't think I remember but on the stat sheet he was out for 60 games, played 17 minutes a night and scored 15 goals.

Oscar Lindberg played 68 games, 12 minutes a night, and scored 12 goals. Quality of comp is one thing, but so is the quality of your linemates.

Brassard can't score when AV doesn't have last change to get favorable match-ups.

Lots of tactical and accountability issues abound with this team.

 

[TheRightWay]

Something Babcock, Quenneville and Sutter have had: Fantastic squads. Always thought Quenneville in particular was overrated. I don't think the Hawks have a particular good system but they have a stacked team.

Let's face it, the Rangers have a pretty average roster. If anything guys like Torto and AV have done miracles pushing this team beyond their limits.

You guys realize that Alain Vigneault has significant input into what players the team signs/acquires/trades/calls up, right? He doesn't just wake up every day, drive to the rink, and see what players he was given that particular day.

 

[RangerBlues]

AV has turned this team into an exact copy of the Canucks were.

 

[mike14]

AV has turned this team into an exact copy of the Canucks were.

No goalie controversy....

 

[RangerBlues]

No goalie controversy....

Slats would never allow those antics.

 

[Gormo]

AV has turned this team into an exact copy of the Canucks were.

Is he still doing that thing where he tries to defend a one goal lead for 2+ periods?

Are you seeing a consistent and alarming lack of urgency?

Thats what I remember the most during his Vancouver tenure... it was frustrating, but... I still miss him sometimes. Part of that is probably because we really suck now.

 

[NYRKING30]

I like AV unlike most here but I certainly would have went after Julien if he was available. Maybe next year though. It will be interesting to see if Gorton wants AV as his guy. I don't think he was since the time AV was hired. Really depends on which direction the team wants to go in the future.

 

[trilobyte]

Something Babcock, Quenneville and Sutter have had: Fantastic squads. Always thought Quenneville in particular was overrated. I don't think the Hawks have a particular good system but they have a stacked team.

Let's face it, the Rangers have a pretty average roster. If anything guys like Torto and AV have done miracles pushing this team beyond their limits.

Chicago has some consistently great players as their core.
Toews
Kane
Keith
Seabrook (overlooked by most)

When you have a core like that, you protect it. Other teams may have identified thier core, and protected it, but how often does it look like those four? Every season, all the people who hate other teams' success like to predict the downfall of the Blackhawks. Even if they do not go deep this year, they are still in good shape.

 

[NYRKING30]

Chicago is the type of system that will play any style that they need to play going by their opponent. Thats one of the many reasons why they have been so successful. Q is a great coach. Compare him with Hitchcock 10-15 years ago and everyone would tell you Hitchcock is the leagues next great coach and Q was just a good coach who can do good things like he did in his time with STL. Now fast forward and apparently Hitchcock is one of the leagues worst coaches if you believe some people.

 

[Roo Returns]

Quennville did just fine in St. Louis over a decade ago. He just had to deal with Dallas/Colorado/Detroit all having better squads. Pretty similar to what Herb Brooks had to deal with when he was coaching the Rangers 35 years ago.

As for AV, I will be utterly shocked if he doesn't get one more year. He has to change. Can he? No more Glass, McLIrath must play, etc.

Who else would you guys want to coach? Are you comfortable giving it to either Ulf or Arniel? Kevin Dineen? Some college coach?

If there's gonna be a change, we need actual choices.

 

[NYRKING30]

Quennville did just fine in St. Louis over a decade ago. He just had to deal with Dallas/Colorado/Detroit all having better squads. Pretty similar to what Herb Brooks had to deal with when he was coaching the Rangers 35 years ago.

As for AV, I will be utterly shocked if he doesn't get one more year. He has to change. Can he? No more Glass, McLIrath must play, etc.

Who else would you guys want to coach? Are you comfortable giving it to either Ulf or Arniel? Kevin Dineen? Some college coach?

If there's gonna be a change, we need actual choices.

Exactly my point, thats the same issue Hitchcock has now. In the NFL in the AFC you pretty much always had to go through one of if not both Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Thats just how it goes sometimes when the leagues truly elite teams are lopsided in one conference. The West is just a different brand of Hockey being played over there.

Im sure AV will change his strategy/thinking next year, he's not stubborn as Torts was where he flat out refused to change his system. Ulf I clearly wouldn't be comfortable giving the reigns too, Arniel will definitely get another NHL look by some team.

I agree, there needs to be a legit option before we do anything. This all conjecture at this point as I think this whole situation hinges on where Rangers management forecast our teams future in the next 3-5 years. If your going for a retool with a hope of being a contender for next year or the season after, you want someone with a record and experience. I would have liked Julien. If management decides the opposite than it quite won't matter as much. I tend to believe young teams that are coming together are better suited for a Torts type coach and someone who demands accountability and learning the defensive position first and foremost. I still think AV is here next season. Maybe both the Bruins and Rangers suck and both get fired where we can then nab Julien. I always loved his style.

 

[Mikos87]

Who else would you guys want to coach? Are you comfortable giving it to either Ulf or Arniel? Kevin Dineen? Some college coach?

If there's gonna be a change, we need actual choices.

I don't think AV will lose his job but Dineen did a great job with the women's national team and a weak FLA team.

Union college's Rick Bennett runs a system that is very tight checking and based on skating. It's how the game is trending. The guy won with a no name squad. He has two frozen 4s in 3 years, a .700 winning percentage on teams that only had a single NHL drafted player in the mid rounds.

Either way I think AV sticks around but I would replace Ulfie and Arnie.

Definitely get Adam Oates in there to shake up AV's job security and work on skills development and the power play.

On defense you look at guys like Phil Housley in Nashville and Niedermayer in Anaheim and how well coached their d-core is when moving pucks of of trouble.

Wonder why that is right?

 

[trilobyte]

I don't think AV will lose his job but Dineen did a great job with the women's national team and a weak FLA team.

Union college's Rick Bennett runs a system that is very tight checking and based on skating. It's how the game is trending. The guy won with a no name squad. He has two frozen 4s in 3 years, a .700 winning percentage on teams that only had a single NHL drafted player in the mid rounds.

Either way I think AV sticks around but I would replace Ulfie and Arnie.

Definitely get Adam Oates in there to shake up AV's job security and work on skills development and the power play.

On defense you look at guys like Phil Housley in Nashville and Niedermayer in Anaheim and how well coached their d-core is when moving pucks of of trouble.

Wonder why that is right?

It's not time to replace Alain V but what kind of say does he have in his coaching staff?

 

[Mikos87]

It's not time to replace Alain V but what kind of say does he have in his coaching staff?

Arnie was his guy, they had a connection through the Manitoba Moose where they both coached, and Arnie was the AHL coach for Vancouver's team while AV was there. Ulfie came out the PHX (ARI) system.

PHX hired AV's guy as an assistant and Ulfie was replaced by him and came to NY. For all of the blame that AV gets about the defense, it's Ulfie that controls the pairs, match-ups and ice-time.

One NHL coach can't simple do that in real-time where he's doing the forward and defense at the same time. Not how hockey works.

I think Ulfie needs the AXE.

The Rangers have had a terrible PK and PP. 7 PP GA in this series so far in 4 games, one 5 on 3 goal for.

7 to 1 on special teams. Special teams is a byproduct of coaching, Arniel does the PP, Ulfie does the PK. Rangers have the worst zone entry on the PP.

Dom Moore needed to be replaced at the deadline and they didn't. Was a big big mistake if underrated by people on here. He wasn't able to get the job done for months before the deadline.

Gorts biggest mistake was not replacing Hagelin's role. No way Etem was going to do that, and Fast is Fast enough or good enough to eat those minutes.

There's a lot of things that went downhill, but I think the entire construct of the team and coaching staff needs a shake up.

 

[Mikos87]

Also most teams now run the 1-3-1 on the power play. They also like to have 3 RH shots, and 2 LH shots on opposite wings for one times and shorter passing lanes.

Look at all of the top PP units in the league and you'll see that. The Rangers don't have a RH trigger man, and Stepan only likes to one-time pucks into an empty net.

 

[trilobyte]

Arnie was his guy, they had a connection through the Manitoba Moose where they both coached, and Arnie was the AHL coach for Vancouver's team while AV was there. Ulfie came out the PHX (ARI) system.

PHX hired AV's guy as an assistant and Ulfie was replaced by him and came to NY. For all of the blame that AV gets about the defense, it's Ulfie that controls the pairs, match-ups and ice-time.

One NHL coach can't simple do that in real-time where he's doing the forward and defense at the same time. Not how hockey works.

I think Ulfie needs the AXE.

The Rangers have had a terrible PK and PP. 7 PP GA in this series so far in 4 games, one 5 on 3 goal for.

7 to 1 on special teams. Special teams is a byproduct of coaching, Arniel does the PP, Ulfie does the PK. Rangers have the worst zone entry on the PP.

Dom Moore needed to be replaced at the deadline and they didn't. Was a big big mistake if underrated by people on here. He wasn't able to get the job done for months before the deadline.

Gorts biggest mistake was not replacing Hagelin's role. No way Etem was going to do that, and Fast is Fast enough or good enough to eat those minutes.

There's a lot of things that went downhill, but I think the entire construct of the team and coaching staff needs a shake up.

I appreciate your insight. Some of what you say I already was thinking about. Either Ulfie is not coming up with answers, or AV is not asking for them.

The Rangers bad zone entry is a good thing to identify. I always thought their good forecheck and the speed they got in there with, Hagelin, ST. Louis, a totally great forechecker with a long wingspan in Brian Boyle (I'm going back a bit here but only to illustrate how that fierce forecheck was possible) was what gave them that other option. I hated seeing Hagelin go, not because I thought they should have given him what he asked, but because I saw this very special and uncommon advantage not being replaced.

 

[Machinehead]

This team can score. I know they can and I've seen them do it.

Regular season, they score a bunch of goals.

Playoffs on the road, they score a bunch of goals.

Specifically at home, specifically in the playoffs, they suddenly can't score at all. Have to look at the coach.

Same thing would happen to his Canucks teams.

 

[Bluenote13]

This team can score. I know they can and I've seen them do it.

Regular season, they score a bunch of goals.

Playoffs on the road, they score a bunch of goals.

Specifically at home, specifically in the playoffs, they suddenly can't score at all. Have to look at the coach.

Same thing would happen to his Canucks teams.

9 games in our last 30 where we scored 3 or more, only Detroit out of the Eastern playoff teams was worse with 7.

Last playoffs under Torts we averaged 2 goals a game in 12 games.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

This team can score. I know they can and I've seen them do it.

Regular season, they score a bunch of goals.

Playoffs on the road, they score a bunch of goals.

Specifically at home, specifically in the playoffs, they suddenly can't score at all. Have to look at the coach.

Same thing would happen to his Canucks teams.

It's like they just get tensed up like crazy whenever they play at home in the playoffs. It's unreal....