A lost generation

[FiLe]

Then again, the games being in China don't help.

That's actually considered one of the things that will make it more likely they'll be back by 2022.

 

[ulvvf]

Sure, Panarin, Kucherov, Tarasenko et al are much less hyped than Malkin or Ovie, but they play as a team and have heart, unlike some chokers that failed at previous Olympics. I hope another World Cup happens at some point, it was great (also, the idea of a 'united europe' team was also nice, maybe they should always go like that so there won't be two digit scores against Italy, Slovakia etc.

if they go with 8 teams, then italy would probably not be one of them either way.

 

[Chimpradamus]

This is what happens when you let an entertainment business get a monopoly on a sport.

[MOD]

 

[Xokkeu]

This is what happens when you let an entertainment business get a monopoly on a sport.

[MOD]

Dude it's all entertainment. FIFA ain't much better they just have more leverage.

 

[Tuoppi]

Sure, Panarin, Kucherov, Tarasenko et al are much less hyped than Malkin or Ovie, but they play as a team and have heart, unlike some chokers that failed at previous Olympics. I hope another World Cup happens at some point, it was great (also, the idea of a 'united europe' team was also nice, maybe they should always go like that so there won't be two digit scores against Italy, Slovakia etc.

Two digit against Slovakia, when? And this team doesn't represent their general level.

 

[GermanNuck]

Dude it's all entertainment. FIFA ain't much better they just have more leverage.

Yes and no. Football is much more international as a sport than hockey. Ironically though, the US as probably the most patriotic and self-centered nation doesn't seem to back their national team as much as let's say France, England or Germany.
As a German I can assure you: You can raise taxes and you can cut social programs but impose speed limits on the Autobahn or take away international football and we will burn **** to the ground

 

[B Boarding]

Of course I was talking about you. If you can read you can figure that our, since I quoted a post directed directly toward you. Your complaints remain ridiculous because of the bolded. You don't care about what actually did happen, you only care about your theory of what might have happened. Reality is that the refereeing was fine, so there is no issue. Your theorizing is irrelevant when we have real results and games to look at.

There is of course a huge issue even if the reffing was fine. You don't put yourself in a situation where corruption is a potential risk, regardless if it's small or big. Just like you can't have your cousin as the judge or in the jury when you are in court. This would never be allowed in a bigger sport like football. It makes hockey look like a bush league sport.

 

[JackSlater]

There is of course a huge issue even if the reffing was fine. You don't put yourself in a situation where corruption is a potential risk, regardless if it's small or big. Just like you can't have your cousin as the judge or in the jury when you are in court. This would never be allowed in a bigger sport like football. It makes hockey look like a bush league sport.

So once again, what actually happened - the referees did a good job - doesn't matter as much as what might have happened. Interesting way to look at things. I also understand your analogy, and I agree that the cousin of a player probably shouldn't be the referee in a game in which that player participates. I don't mind judges being from the same country as claimants or defendants though, even in matters of national significance, as long as those judges end up making the right decision. What happens matters far more than paranoia about what might have happened.

Talking about corruption and then claiming that "this would never be allowed in a bigger sport like football" makes me laugh. Soccer is far more corrupt than hockey from top to bottom.

 

[Jeti]

That's actually considered one of the things that will make it more likely they'll be back by 2022.

I meant relative to the games being in North America. Sure, there's worse places than China to grow the game, but could you imagine if the US won a gold medal in hockey with games being played in prime time on US soil? The NHL wouldn't be skipping if they thought that could happen. They wouldn't be complaining about a condensed schedule. That could boost the profile of the sport for a generation in the country where the majority of teams (both struggling and otherwise) are.

 

[tony d]

It's not that big a deal to me. I won't miss a 2 week break in NHL action every 4 yrs. but to each their own.

 

[Jarey Curry]

So with NHL not going to the Olympics, the WC dead, there will be a generation of players that won't get the opportunity to play for their country during the prime of their years. China games is in 2022, five years from now. Too bad. Maybe it will make more players willing to go to WHC since it will be their only chance to dress in national colours.

WC meaning world championship right? Dead meaning not alive and proud? Canada/USA full of nhl players, Russia, Sweden has a lot of them, Finland a few. I am one of few sceptics who still think they'll find a way to bring some/all nhl players to the Olympics. However if that doesn't happen, I guess players start to feel urgency to play for their country in the WC in near future. Those players who play the nhl playoffs have a chance to play in the world cup although it's just a fantasy all star tournament between the big ones

 

[mjlee]

WC meaning world championship right? Dead meaning not alive and proud? Canada/USA full of nhl players, Russia, Sweden has a lot of them, Finland a few. I am one of few sceptics who still think they'll find a way to bring some/all nhl players to the Olympics. However if that doesn't happen, I guess players start to feel urgency to play for their country in the WC in near future. Those players who play the nhl playoffs have a chance to play in the world cup although it's just a fantasy all star tournament between the big ones

Sorry for being unclear WC meaning the World Cup. WHC is the World Championships (forgot the H). And if you check out another thread here, the World Cup is off the table. So the WHC will be the only game in town regarding international hockey with NHL players until 2022.

 

[Barrie22]

Of course I was talking about you. If you can read you can figure that our, since I quoted a post directed directly toward you. Your complaints remain ridiculous because of the bolded. You don't care about what actually did happen, you only care about your theory of what might have happened. Reality is that the refereeing was fine, so there is no issue. Your theorizing is irrelevant when we have real results and games to look at.



The NHLPA is in no way equally to blame. The reason that the league isn't going is because the NHL decided not to go, partially due to the IOC. The NHLPA is willing to go as things stand right now and as they have been for the last 20 years. We can blame the NHLPA in large part for the impending lockout, but the PA wanted to play in the Olympics.

Bull. So why did the nhlpa not accept the nhl's offer to extend the cba 2 years for the ability to play in the olympics? Apparently they were not ready to go to the olympics as is.

And of course the players wanted to go, who wouldn't want to go with everything to gain and nothing to lose.

The players get paid if they go and win gold with no injuries.

The players get paid if they go and get injured.

The players get paid if they don't go at all.

 

[JackSlater]

Bull. So why did the nhlpa not accept the nhl's offer to extend the cba 2 years for the ability to play in the olympics? Apparently they were not ready to go to the olympics as is.

Well, kudos to the NHL owners for managing to trick a few people with their disingenuous offer that they knew would never be accepted. The players are willing to go, the only things that changed were the IOC's insurance issue (mitigated by the IIHF) and the NHL owners' mindsets. That the players aren't willing to extend the deal that they have hated for years does not prove that they are not willing to go now.

The NHL arbitrarily changed the criteria for participation, and the players didn't accept that new criteria. The players were willing participants under the criteria that had been in place for decades. Anyone with an ounce of sense can see that. The only parties that deserve blame are the NHL owners and the IOC.

 

[Nino33]

Btw in the USA- Canada game they shift. In all other games execpt for the final and the USA-Canada game, we had 1 international ref and 1 NHL ref, but in the canada vs USA game, they shift to having 1 ref from usa and 1 from canada. So why did they do that in that game all the suddently? My guess, since the whole tournament was basically controlled by usa and canada, they probabaly didnt want either usa or canada get a benefit in that game from having a baised ref so they evened it out with having 1 from each country. They basically admited the problem themself there.

International refereeing is better than it was when I first started watching hockey 40+ years ago, but it's still below any NHL referee IMO (the game with NHLers is so much different than any international hockey, much faster paced/more intense)

I'm not sure I always think a European/Russian referee must be biased against NA (like you seem to think NA referees would be biased against European/Russian teams), but I do think any European/Russian referee in a top tournament could be replaced by a better NA referee (European/Russian referees simply don't see hockey at the speed/level of NHL hockey and so struggle)

A US/Canada game is likely the fastest, most intense hockey possible...that'd be my guess as to why have two NA referees (not to avoid a single Canadian or American being biased, but to avoid a European/Russian referee being in over their head)

Btw, speaking of corruption about where olympics shall be played, have you noticed that 2 out 5 of these olympics with NHL players have been played in canada and USA, what is the odds of that happening? And the problem with that is that usa and canada are hockey countries so they get a bigger benefit of playing at home then japan does.

Having the Olympics "at home" sure helped Russia didn't it? Oh yeah, it didn't...so much for your theory (clearly teams still actually have to play and win the games!)

 

[ffh]

All because of NHL execs greed, what a shame. The same thinking that brought the NHL the last lockout and one which will bring another one in 2020.

Maybe if you had to pay the bills you would have a diffrent opinion

 

[Nino33]

Well, kudos to the NHL owners for managing to trick a few people with their disingenuous offer that they knew would never be accepted.

They tricked me then too
There's nothing wrong with an NHL player's life now, a CBA extension for the Olympics is more than fair IMO...given previous Olympic participation was covered in the CBA previously but not the current CBA means there's no surprise

IMO there's no trick though, as I don't believe the offer was disingenuous (I think the NHL would have honored it if it had been accepted, and I think it was a reasonable offer). The players and their agents and leadership failed to negotiate Olympic participation in the current CBA...they didn't, and refused the owners offer (some, myself included, think the players were stupid not to accept the offer)




IMO the only way to "know" the players (i.e. their leadership) would reject the owner's offer is to believe the players are just looking for conflict and labour strife and/or don't really care about the Olympics and/or think they're enduring hardship in some way - I choose to think positively of the players and that's why I guess I was tricked as you say

I think the reason is mostly the first I mentioned, but also the second a bit as I don't think the players as a whole care about the Olympics like many Olympic supporters think they do); I don't think the players think they're enduring hardship in some way (I'd hate to think they'd become that selfish/entitled)

 

[Ezekial]

Having the Olympics "at home" sure helped Russia didn't it? Oh yeah, it didn't...so much for your theory (clearly teams still actually have to play and win the games!)

Viewership.

 

[Nino33]

Having the Olympics "at home" sure helped Russia didn't it? Oh yeah, it didn't...so much for your theory (clearly teams still actually have to play and win the games!)

Viewership.

Huh?

I was replying to ulvvf talking about alleged corruption and suggesting having the Olympics in NA contributed to the performance of Canada and the US in a nefarious way; I pointed out that the alleged advantage of playing at home didn't help Russia....how does "viewership" connect to the discussion?

 

[Ezekial]

Huh?

I was replying to ulvvf talking about alleged corruption and suggesting having the Olympics in NA contributed to the performance of Canada and the US in a nefarious way; I pointed out that the alleged advantage of playing at home didn't help Russia....how does "viewership" connect to the discussion?

I don't know.

 

[JackSlater]

They tricked me then too
There's nothing wrong with an NHL player's life now, a CBA extension for the Olympics is more than fair IMO...given previous Olympic participation was covered in the CBA previously but not the current CBA means there's no surprise

IMO there's no trick though, as I don't believe the offer was disingenuous (I think the NHL would have honored it if it had been accepted, and I think it was a reasonable offer). The players and their agents and leadership failed to negotiate Olympic participation in the current CBA...they didn't, and refused the owners offer (some, myself included, think the players were stupid not to accept the offer)

IMO the only way to "know" the players (i.e. their leadership) would reject the owner's offer is to believe the players are just looking for conflict and labour strife and/or don't really care about the Olympics and/or think they're enduring hardship in some way - I choose to think positively of the players and that's why I guess I was tricked as you say

I think the reason is mostly the first I mentioned, but also the second a bit as I don't think the players as a whole care about the Olympics like many Olympic supporters think they do); I don't think the players think they're enduring hardship in some way (I'd hate to think they'd become that selfish/entitled)

Yes, clearly you were tricked, unsurprisingly. Anyone who follows NHL labour negotiations knows that the players are going to opt out. They have been complaining consistently about the escrow situation for years. The NHL made an offer that it knew would be rejected. The blame remains with the owners. It makes literally no sense to blame the players for not jumping through the hoop that the owners erected instead of just blaming the owners for erecting the hoop in the first place. Your opinions regarding the players' quality of life and your willful ignorance to the players' desire to play in the Olympics aren't really relevant to whether it was a realistic offer.

 

[Nino33]

Yes, clearly you were tricked, unsurprisingly. Anyone who follows NHL labour negotiations knows that the players are going to opt out. They have been complaining consistently about the escrow situation for years. The NHL made an offer that it knew would be rejected. The blame remains with the owners. It makes literally no sense to blame the players for not jumping through the hoop that the owners erected instead of just blaming the owners for erecting the hoop in the first place.

Escrow is exactly what they negotiated!
And they didn't negotiate Olympic participation (despite having done so previously!)

I think I can not only blame the players, I can think they're unbelievably stupid at the same time (for signing the CBA with the escrow, for not negotiating Olympic participation)

What are you, a player agent/NHLPA employee?
If you are, I'd say you're a member of the group the players should be upset with

Your opinions regarding the players' quality of life and your willful ignorance to the players' desire to play in the Olympics aren't really relevant to whether it was a realistic offer.

There's no evidence the players actually care all that much about the Olympics (not enough to do anything to make it happen, and players/Russians are signing NHL contracts now! thus choosing the NHL over the Olympics)

The player's quality of life has a huge impact on public opinion/support they receive (or lack thereof...have you not noticed that my view if the norm for the majority of society? NHL players are considered rich/elite and no one feels sorry for them about their only getting 50% of the HRR as per the CBA agreement they agreed to)

 

[JackSlater]

Escrow is exactly what they negotiated!
And they didn't negotiate Olympic participation (despite having done so previously!)

I think I can not only blame the players, I can think they're unbelievably stupid at the same time (for signing the CBA with the escrow, for not negotiating Olympic participation)

What are you, a player agent?
If you are, I'd say you're a member of the group the players should be upset with

There's no evidence the players actually care all that much about the Olympics (not enough to do anything to make it happen, and players/Russians are signing NHL contracts now! thus choosing the NHL over the Olympics)

The player's quality of life has a huge impact on public opinion/support they receive (or lack thereof...have you not noticed that my view if the norm for the majority of society? NHL players are considered rich/elite and no one feels sorry for them about their only getting 50% of the HRR as per the CBA agreement they agreed to)

[mod] The owners made an offer to the players that everyone who pays even the slightest attention to the NHL's labour situation knew would be rejected. An offer that is offered with the knowledge that it will not be accepted isn't a genuine offer. Your opinions on a player's quality of life remain irrelevant as to whether or not the players would accept such a deal. You've also deviated from your initial, and obviously wrong, point about whether the players want to participate. That they want to participate is obvious to anyone who pays even the remotest attention. The issue is that they don't want to participate enough to extend the current labour deal, which they have derided for several years now, for another few years.

In any event, [MOD] it remains ridiculous to blame the players for the lack of NHL participation. They are willing to play - the owners are not willing to release them. The owners put an obstacle in the players' way, and the players didn't overcome that obstacle. A reasonable person blames the person who erected the obstacle. [mod]

 

[Nino33]

[MOD

In any event, if we can move on from your irrelevant speculation, it remains ridiculous to blame the players for the lack of NHL participation. They are willing to play - the owners are not willing to release them. The owners put an obstacle in the players' way, and the players didn't overcome that obstacle. A reasonable person blames the person who erected the obstacle. A person using asinine reasoning somehow finds a way to blame the person with the obstacle in front of them for not overcoming the obstacle.

A reasonable person notices the players didn't negotiate Olympic participation in the current CBA despite having done so previously (who cares if you're willing to go do something you want to and your employees doesn't want to give you the time off and you didn't negotiate for it when you had previously...to me that sounds like you're stupid, not hard done by); IMO supporting the players as innocent is asinine

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

I have a weird feeling they'll suspend players instead of a lockout and have a season continue with below average guys in the lineup.