Salary Cap: '24-'25 Salary Thread: Crosbicles Volume MMXXVI: Sid is Still Goat
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- Jun 13, 2010
- 43,913
- 23,155
If they're offering Dorofeyev and a 2027 1st for Rakell, I would do that too.
I would aim for a 1st in 2026 in the EK deal. Assuming we get the Rangers 1st in 25, have 2 1sts in the next 3 drafts would be great.
Le Magnifique 66
Let's Go Pens
With all the injuries to Ottawa and them free falling with a lot of pressure to turn the corner and make the playoffs, I think KD should get on the phone ASAP and fleeced them EK back!!
Duffy13
(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ ┻━┻
Being competitive and being a competitive threat is two different things. He's not lying about wanting to be competitive... However, this team just is not. The last 3 games against historic rivals and to lay 3 eggs as big as they did, while not having and ounce of competitiveness is grounds for big changes.
Now if the games were losses and the team showed any fight at all then yeah, great, we can handle losses with a team that tries, hits, fights, gets a highlight reel save, fun stuff!!
We don't get that, this team hits the ice every night and it's almost like they are surprised it's a game day. Holy shit, it's a game? Who are we playing? What are the lines? They are so massively unprepared to play it's nearing scandalous territory.
Now if the games were losses and the team showed any fight at all then yeah, great, we can handle losses with a team that tries, hits, fights, gets a highlight reel save, fun stuff!!
We don't get that, this team hits the ice every night and it's almost like they are surprised it's a game day. Holy shit, it's a game? Who are we playing? What are the lines? They are so massively unprepared to play it's nearing scandalous territory.
They should have had Hughes on a line with someone physical who could help make space fo him in the offensive zone. Guentzel - Matthews - Hughes just didn't work.
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Ugene Magic
EVIL LAUGH
Actually, Phil was a PPG guy in the playoffs.
Rudy Russo
Registered User
Dubas would do that deal with the Kings in a heartbeat but I don't see the KIngs giving up that much.
AuroraBorealis
Back-to-back hater
That's a perfect line for next year when we're aiming to draft McKenna.
AuroraBorealis
Back-to-back hater
Heinen 3 ES points in 87 minutes.
Nieto 2 ES points in 310 minutes
Acciari 7 ES points in 650 minutes.
We kicked Heinen off the team when he had 20 in 644 mins. Fifth best rate on the team. Tied with Guentzel.
Sullivan honestly deserves to miss the playoffs for the 3rd year running.
Nieto 2 ES points in 310 minutes
Acciari 7 ES points in 650 minutes.
We kicked Heinen off the team when he had 20 in 644 mins. Fifth best rate on the team. Tied with Guentzel.
Sullivan honestly deserves to miss the playoffs for the 3rd year running.
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AuroraBorealis
Back-to-back hater
cygnus47
Registered User
- Sep 14, 2013
- 7,666
- 2,802
Phil did things in the playoffs he never did in the regular season. Dude was a gamer.
Jag68Sid87
Sullivan gots to go!
There are some things that I simply cannot get on board with, things being mentioned a lot here:
- first of all, enough talk about keeping Mike Sullivan and recalling Tristan Jarry for tank purposes. Get that stuff out of here. Nonsense. I'd give up our first-round pick for the next decade if it meant moving on from the fossil behind the bench right about now. And Jarry should remain in the AHL until we find a chump (er, taker) for his services or his contract runs out, or he actually earns a promotion back to the NHL. We have the cap space to keep him buried. In fact, one of the reasons we should not retain salary or buy players out is so that we can bury contracts if we need to. Heck, I would not stop at Jarry. Heinen, Hayes, Acciari...bury them all if you cannot trade.
- secondly, we are a terrible team. I don't believe it. Our core is solid, if aging yes. I watched both weekend games against Wsh and NYR. We seemed in control of both games, out-shooting and out-chancing both opponents. True, we got no goaltending at all in either game, but it is more than that. This team is built for low-event hockey. So when events occur, we are like deer in headlights. And it has been this way under Sullivan for a very long time. And then they simply cannot reel it back in. That's on the coach. Sullivan talks about wanting more mental toughness. Well, that's coaching Mike! And then there is roster construction. We are a top-heavy team, and a bottom-heavy team. No middle class! We are like dating a girl with Dolly Parton's tits and Kim Kardashian's ass. And nothing in between.
- So this theory about Dubas always planning a full-blown tank rebuild, despite his public comments to the contrary, is an interesting one. Not really buying it, though. So, he tells us the plan is to be competitive for the rest of the core's careers, while getting younger with an eye toward the future, yet he in actuality decides to go into tank mode? Sorry, but how is he going to convince said core that this is the plan and they all buy in? Fans can be persuaded, sure. Fannies in the seats and all that. But, aside from knowing the competitive nature of these athletes, we have heard plenty of reports about them committing to this team. Crosby has reportedly said he does not want to go anywhere; Letang has reportedly said it's either Pit or Mtl; Malkin has reportedly stated his intention is to not play in the KHL, stay in Pittsburgh through his contract and possibly beyond (I hope we extend him, personally). Even Karlsson has reportedly nixed the idea that he wants to be traded, and there has been talk that both he and Rust would not waive. Would any of this be true if they were told by Dubas that they were going into a full rebuild? Are they that stupid not to realize that Danton Heinen, Cody Glass, Anthony Beauvillier and Kevin Hayes are not going to make them a playoff contender? The players were told what Dubas told the media. That is the only thing that makes sense.
- I am also not on board with the idea that we have to keep our top prospects in the AHL so that they can learn how to win together. What about Joel Blomqvist? Why is he in Pittsburgh, but all the others are down on the farm? Could it be because of Mike Sullivan? Sullivan could care less about the goaltenders. He just wants someone to stop the puck. He also has probably had enough of Jarry, like everyone else. I do not think it is a coincidence that the only prospect currently on the roster is the backup goaltender. This has Mike Sullivan written all over it.
- I don't want to trade Erik Karlsson and Rickard Rakell, at least not unless it is a really really good trade for us. Dorofeyev and a first-round pick? Sign me up. But salary retention should be a non-starter. No first-round draft pick involved should be a non-starter, too. Maybe I am crazy, but I feel that if we simply kept our good players, gotten rid of the bad ones and fired the coach, we would be right in line with that Dubas plan of an accelerated rebuild. The only two players I would trade who are actually good are Bunting and Grz. Bunting because I feel like his value is fleeting, and also because we have replacements in the AHL needing a chance. Grz because we need a defensive defenseman to play with Karlsson, because Pickering should be in the NHL right now because he is our best defensive defenseman, and because Grz has too many ties to Mike Sullivan and we need to be rid of any and all of that crap. The other guys who hold minimal or no value, move them for what you can get or waive them. Goodbye.
- Back to the prospects, there is a notion here that we do not have any blue chippers among our prospect pool. So this is why everybody wants to trade everybody away and try to get the top-tier guys in the next three drafts. Well, first of all, we don't know what our prospects will be yet. You have to actually play in the NHL to draw conclusions. But even if it is true that our AHL prospects are merely complementary pieces to a future core, why not have them complement the current core? At worst, they help Crosby, Malkin and company compete (the publicly stated goal, after all) for the here and now. At best, they develop into interesting pieces for the future. Win-win.
There is only one conclusion that can be drawn, in my opinion (and I have said this before): Dubas has no real power within this organization, as he has to answer to the people above him and the head coach "below" him. He cannot fire the head coach, nor can he mandate that the players HE has brought into the organization play in the NHL, play more minutes or play at all. When the organization decided to make a coaching change last summer, I am certain that Sullivan had a say, was not happy about it and insisted that we replace Reirden with Quinn. I am confident that Sullivan is in on trade talks, tells Dubas that he likes certain players, not so much others, etc. I am pretty sure that when reports surfaced on July 1 last summer that the Oilers had signed Matt Nieto, it was Sullivan who called Dubas to, "make it happen." Sullivan has his fingerprints all over this team. Dubas is made to look like a complete bumbling fool nationally because of this. But he is paid handsomely, has ridiculous job security and is a great salesman. So I suppose he goes along with it. Either this is true, or he truly is the worst GM in North American pro sports. I doubt that is true.
Mitch Marner represents a shift in the balance of power, in my opinion. If Dubas is able to land someone like Marner, then OK. Then I will buy into the idea that Dubas is actually running this show. Which probably leads to many more questions about his first two off-seasons, but OK. Because when he got this job, I was definitely expecting more players with Toronto ties coming on board. Instead, it's been what, Acciari, Bunting, Andreas Johnsson briefly, Filip Kral...not much. Now, is that because Shanahan tells Treliving not to talk to Dubas? Maybe. Or maybe Dubas is too busy trying to acquire every Boston University alum and Massachusetts-born player that he has no time to dip into his past.
In conclusion, everything within this organization is a mess. However, fire Mike Sullivan tomorrow and suddenly, things look a LOT brighter. Until that day, nothing matters.
- first of all, enough talk about keeping Mike Sullivan and recalling Tristan Jarry for tank purposes. Get that stuff out of here. Nonsense. I'd give up our first-round pick for the next decade if it meant moving on from the fossil behind the bench right about now. And Jarry should remain in the AHL until we find a chump (er, taker) for his services or his contract runs out, or he actually earns a promotion back to the NHL. We have the cap space to keep him buried. In fact, one of the reasons we should not retain salary or buy players out is so that we can bury contracts if we need to. Heck, I would not stop at Jarry. Heinen, Hayes, Acciari...bury them all if you cannot trade.
- secondly, we are a terrible team. I don't believe it. Our core is solid, if aging yes. I watched both weekend games against Wsh and NYR. We seemed in control of both games, out-shooting and out-chancing both opponents. True, we got no goaltending at all in either game, but it is more than that. This team is built for low-event hockey. So when events occur, we are like deer in headlights. And it has been this way under Sullivan for a very long time. And then they simply cannot reel it back in. That's on the coach. Sullivan talks about wanting more mental toughness. Well, that's coaching Mike! And then there is roster construction. We are a top-heavy team, and a bottom-heavy team. No middle class! We are like dating a girl with Dolly Parton's tits and Kim Kardashian's ass. And nothing in between.
- So this theory about Dubas always planning a full-blown tank rebuild, despite his public comments to the contrary, is an interesting one. Not really buying it, though. So, he tells us the plan is to be competitive for the rest of the core's careers, while getting younger with an eye toward the future, yet he in actuality decides to go into tank mode? Sorry, but how is he going to convince said core that this is the plan and they all buy in? Fans can be persuaded, sure. Fannies in the seats and all that. But, aside from knowing the competitive nature of these athletes, we have heard plenty of reports about them committing to this team. Crosby has reportedly said he does not want to go anywhere; Letang has reportedly said it's either Pit or Mtl; Malkin has reportedly stated his intention is to not play in the KHL, stay in Pittsburgh through his contract and possibly beyond (I hope we extend him, personally). Even Karlsson has reportedly nixed the idea that he wants to be traded, and there has been talk that both he and Rust would not waive. Would any of this be true if they were told by Dubas that they were going into a full rebuild? Are they that stupid not to realize that Danton Heinen, Cody Glass, Anthony Beauvillier and Kevin Hayes are not going to make them a playoff contender? The players were told what Dubas told the media. That is the only thing that makes sense.
- I am also not on board with the idea that we have to keep our top prospects in the AHL so that they can learn how to win together. What about Joel Blomqvist? Why is he in Pittsburgh, but all the others are down on the farm? Could it be because of Mike Sullivan? Sullivan could care less about the goaltenders. He just wants someone to stop the puck. He also has probably had enough of Jarry, like everyone else. I do not think it is a coincidence that the only prospect currently on the roster is the backup goaltender. This has Mike Sullivan written all over it.
- I don't want to trade Erik Karlsson and Rickard Rakell, at least not unless it is a really really good trade for us. Dorofeyev and a first-round pick? Sign me up. But salary retention should be a non-starter. No first-round draft pick involved should be a non-starter, too. Maybe I am crazy, but I feel that if we simply kept our good players, gotten rid of the bad ones and fired the coach, we would be right in line with that Dubas plan of an accelerated rebuild. The only two players I would trade who are actually good are Bunting and Grz. Bunting because I feel like his value is fleeting, and also because we have replacements in the AHL needing a chance. Grz because we need a defensive defenseman to play with Karlsson, because Pickering should be in the NHL right now because he is our best defensive defenseman, and because Grz has too many ties to Mike Sullivan and we need to be rid of any and all of that crap. The other guys who hold minimal or no value, move them for what you can get or waive them. Goodbye.
- Back to the prospects, there is a notion here that we do not have any blue chippers among our prospect pool. So this is why everybody wants to trade everybody away and try to get the top-tier guys in the next three drafts. Well, first of all, we don't know what our prospects will be yet. You have to actually play in the NHL to draw conclusions. But even if it is true that our AHL prospects are merely complementary pieces to a future core, why not have them complement the current core? At worst, they help Crosby, Malkin and company compete (the publicly stated goal, after all) for the here and now. At best, they develop into interesting pieces for the future. Win-win.
There is only one conclusion that can be drawn, in my opinion (and I have said this before): Dubas has no real power within this organization, as he has to answer to the people above him and the head coach "below" him. He cannot fire the head coach, nor can he mandate that the players HE has brought into the organization play in the NHL, play more minutes or play at all. When the organization decided to make a coaching change last summer, I am certain that Sullivan had a say, was not happy about it and insisted that we replace Reirden with Quinn. I am confident that Sullivan is in on trade talks, tells Dubas that he likes certain players, not so much others, etc. I am pretty sure that when reports surfaced on July 1 last summer that the Oilers had signed Matt Nieto, it was Sullivan who called Dubas to, "make it happen." Sullivan has his fingerprints all over this team. Dubas is made to look like a complete bumbling fool nationally because of this. But he is paid handsomely, has ridiculous job security and is a great salesman. So I suppose he goes along with it. Either this is true, or he truly is the worst GM in North American pro sports. I doubt that is true.
Mitch Marner represents a shift in the balance of power, in my opinion. If Dubas is able to land someone like Marner, then OK. Then I will buy into the idea that Dubas is actually running this show. Which probably leads to many more questions about his first two off-seasons, but OK. Because when he got this job, I was definitely expecting more players with Toronto ties coming on board. Instead, it's been what, Acciari, Bunting, Andreas Johnsson briefly, Filip Kral...not much. Now, is that because Shanahan tells Treliving not to talk to Dubas? Maybe. Or maybe Dubas is too busy trying to acquire every Boston University alum and Massachusetts-born player that he has no time to dip into his past.
In conclusion, everything within this organization is a mess. However, fire Mike Sullivan tomorrow and suddenly, things look a LOT brighter. Until that day, nothing matters.
Randy Butternubs
FDJT
OtherThingsILike
Registered User
I remain unconvinced that adding another geriatric player to a team whose entire problem, more or less, is that the best players are all geriatric is a good idea.
I'm not sure that this is necessarily true, because of the rising cap. For instance, would Mitch Marner necessarily turn down $16M by 1 year?
There are a bunch of absolutely bizarre takes about Sullivan and the team's system on here, but this one might be the most absurd one yet. I am completely baffled as to how anybody could possibly come to this conclusion.
I'm not suggesting old guys on 1 year deals to make the Penguins competitive. I am suggesting them to have assets for sale at the deadline.
I would be an incredible gamble from Marner to take 1x16 in the hopes of getting 7x16 the following summer instead of just taking 7x14 or 8x13 right now.
Buddy Bizarre
Registered User
- Jul 9, 2021
- 6,835
- 4,907
That's what I miss about the Gen X Days: you knew they weren't going to win the game. But damn they tried their hardest given the talent level that was available.
I can't remember the last time I saw full effort from 100% of this team. Probably 2018 Caps series?
Buddy Bizarre
Registered User
- Jul 9, 2021
- 6,835
- 4,907
When your offensive philosophy is to play around the boards, cycle for 20 seconds and the resulting play is a point shot with no one around the net about 95% of the time, that's called "low event hockey" and a staple of what Sullivan likes.
Yes, Dmen pinch but it's to keep the cycle along the boards going- not to join the rush (which is what EK should be doing every game)
sovietsanta87
Registered User
He said Sullivan could care less when he really meant couldn’t care less
AuroraBorealis
Back-to-back hater
Heinen is a 1.96 5v5 P/P60 player over all his Pens games. In that same time frame, Malkin is a 2.13.
He's not someone we should have gotten rid of and he doesn't deserve to be lumped in with Hayes and Acciari, in that convo.
In a tanking year I would use him in the top-six, boost his value and trade him.
He's a year removed from 17g, 19a for Boston. I'm fairly confident you can put him in a position to succeed and he'll play up to his 2.25M AAV next year. That's not a huge ask.
There's no reason you have to sacrifice cap to bury him...not until he proves you need to do that.
Crosby is 22nd in scoring with solid linemates most of the year and a #8 rank PP.
He might not even get 25 goals, and will get a little over 80 points. The leaders will get 120.
Still a very fine player, but he's like mid to below mid among the best players for all teams now. And he'll be another year older, with surely his skating slowing down even more. He'll continue to decline.
Malkin has 10 goals right now. 60 points is beyond him at this point in his career and he too will fall more next year. Both are in the -20's, so they're not exactly handling the Center roles defensively either.
Letang is a -17 and completely toast defensively, with declining offense.
Karlsson has never been a good defensive defenseman. That won't change next year.
Why should a GM invest more years in a core like this? Their power to win Cups is gone.
Even if you changed the coach, that won't make them younger and faster. No, it's crazy to build around them, sacrificing futures. Build around the next core. Move on.
Rakell will regress and tank his value next year. He may get injured again. We would gain nothing by bringing him back. The team will not win another series for many years now. He serves no purpose and will only hurt their draft position. Not trading him would bite them in the ass.
Karlsson plays like a 5.5M or 6M D-man with a 10M price tag. He gives you 50 points and trash defense. Of course you have to retain on him, unless you're making huge sacrifices elsewhere to unload that whole thing. Either way, you're paying the piper.
Dubas doesn't really want an accelerated rebuild. It's just what FSG demands, cuz they're impatient and stupid. It's not gonna work. They have no new core in place. The prospects will need a good chunk of years to develop. And this isn't a highly sought out free agent destination.
They are many years away from their next deep run in the playoffs. Very far.
No chance. All of his trades have been either outright wins or at least reasonable.
Our draft capital has went up dramatically, which was our #1 need. Wilkes has improved dramatically.
He just came on at a time where he had to clean up Hextall's trash, while simultaneously dealing with the Pens being at the end of their cycle. He has to deal with the FSG mandate of working on the future and present at the same time, which is totally unfair to GM's. You have to pick a lane in this league.
He also hasn't even been actively trying to win the last 100 games or so. That's why Beauvillier started the season as Sid's winger.
He has acknowledged where they're at and is prioritizing the future. He has stopped giving out long-term deals. He's just maintaining the slightest of appearances while doing what is needed. I don't think another GM in his position would have done a lot better. He's in a tough spot.
No way man. They are 5th last in the league. They're not 1 player away. Especially not one who's gonna ask for 14 mil or w/e and play below that. Besides, he turns 28 in May. He's gonna want 8 years, until he's 36.
That AAV will look worse and worse as times goes on. His skating will decline, which is the foundation of his whole game.
If you wanna win Cups you need guys outperforming their contracts, not be net negatives.
That's just a desperation short-term move, when the Pens aren't anywhere close to capitalizing on it.
He's washed but this goes well beyond him. This team is deep-fried. No coach is dragging the husks we will have over the next few years near a Cup. Not even prime Bowman could.
sovietsanta87
Registered User
OtherThingsILike
Registered User
You're right, you did say that, my mistake. I suppose there's a risk that he could fall off a cliff, but if it's only one or two seasons and the only risk is cap space, sure, why not?
As of today, this team is 2nd in the league for High Danger Chances For. The Hurricanes are 1st in the league, with exactly two more High Danger Chances For. This team is currently 7th in High Danger Chances Against. That is the exact opposite of low event hockey.
Source: Team Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick
Furthermore, your description of the team's offensive philosophy is entirely incorrect, primarily because there largely isn't any kind of offensive philosophy at all (there are very few restrictions on what a player can do with the puck when they have it) and also in your assertion that defensemen don't join the rush.
At times like this, you can really tell the group who loves the team....and the other weirdos who love players on the team.
CheckingLineCenter
Registered User
- Aug 10, 2018
- 9,753
- 10,818
Yeah this is not a boring team. A really bad one. But they play real loose hockey.
