24/25 McDavid vs. 14/15 Crosby

[Midnight Judges]

Messier is absolutely in the same tier of greatness as Crosby so Cups are important in ranking them within that tier. IMO Kevin Lowe is not in the same tier of greatness as those other players mentioned. He’s in a lower tier for sure.

Crosby is pretty clearly a tier above Messier IMO.

 

[authentic]

He also was better than anyone active in 2015 by a big margin. He was better than Crosby ever was offensively in 1999 especially the calendar year. Agree to disagree on this one. I’m not saying ice time didn’t have an impact but I believe this is overblown here. Respect your opinion nonetheless.

Oh I’m aware of this, Jagr at his peak was absolutely better than Crosby after the concussions and wrist injury that made him a shell of his former self. This doesn’t change the points I’m making about when everyone in the league can’t score much it’s not hard to figure out what the issue is.

 

[authentic]

We agree pretty closely on the top 10-15 peak players though, which this timeframe was largely void of for numerous reasons, injuries to the top players certainly didn’t help. I promise you though if peak Jagr plays that season at around 20-21 minutes he scores less than we would like to believe. That also goes for McDavid or any player in NHL history.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

My opinion on tiering great players is consistent. Within their tier of greatness (I’d say Crosby is in the same tier with McDavid) the ability of a pkayer to be key in his club winning the Cup ranks them higher.

Which again suggests that you don’t understand the nuances of a team sport.

 

[pi314]

The Pens definitely play better without Sidney Crosby.

That’s why they won all those cups in his concussion/broken neck years. The years they won the whole time I was thinking “man just think about how easy this would have been if Crosby wasn’t playing”. Then I farted into my hand, smelled it and was overcome by the high.

The problem with these turkeys is they think the stats say, “This is the team with Sidney Crosby, this is the team without Sidney Crosby.”

But in reality, during those years, the team led the league in missed man-games, and it was a constant revolving door of players.

I can remember Sidney Crosby playing half a year with Jason Megna. There is no actual comparison between a team with Sidney Crosby and a team without Sidney Crosby, which is what they think the stats actually say.

But of course, it’s just a Capitals Ovechkin fan trying to talk smack.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Crosby's defensive capabilities in his prime have become more and more inflated the farther away we've gotten from that prime.

Crosby's defensive abilities in his prime are being underrated due to a Lost Cause-esque campaign by McDavid lovers who can't fathom a top scorer being responsible defensively.

 

[Romang67]

Crosby's defensive abilities in his prime are being underrated due to a Lost Cause-esque campaign by McDavid lovers who can't fathom a top scorer being responsible defensively.

Nah. He just wasn't that good defensively in his prime.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Nah. He just wasn't that good defensively in his prime.

Do you think he was ever good defensively?

 

[Pancakes]

Crosby's prime was mostly robbed by injuries. I think if you have him playing full seasons in his prime years he probably has at least another 2 Art Rosses (2010 and 2012 come to mind) and he would have had a shot in 07-8 (Ovie won with 112 points, Sid was on pace for around that), and 2011 (Malkin won with 109...Sid probably ends up with around there if he played).

07-8 and 2011 are much bigger what ifs while 2010 and 2012 looked like guarantees (2010 was the insane 25 game point streak and 2012 had him losing the art ross by only 4 points despite playing 12 less games than MSL).

McDavid thankfully has had a healthy career for the most part so far but even putting that aside the fact that he has 5 Art Rosses and with potentially more still on the way....it's pretty indisputable that he's had a better regular season career than has Sid. The only real edge Sid has on him is rockets but even there Sid only edges him by one Rocket.

I'm a Pens fan btw. But for me it's pretty inarguable that McDavid has had the better regular season career than Sid. That's just a fact. Anyone who wants to argue otherwise is being a homer. McDavid is the greatest talent to enter the league since Mario.

That doesn't diminish anything Sid has done though. 3 cups, 2 Smythes. McDavid is going to get judged by his playoff success (or lackthereof) even if it's not fair to do so given the playoffs are a team game. If McDavid ends up winning even one cup I think most people will comfortably put him ahead of Sid. If he wins two there's no question. If he doesn't manage to win one....he arguably still deserves to be considered a better player simply by virtue of how insanely good he's been individually, but people will hold the lack of playoff success against him.

 

[daver]

Look at Pearson finalists and see where the deviations from top-3 in points are.

2006: Top-3 in points were the finalists.

2007: Crosby/Lecavalier were top-3 in points, and then Luongo rounds it out. Thornton had 6 more points than Lecavalier did, but Lecavalier was the best goalscorer in the league (as opposed to Thorntons 92 points), and he made the Pearson finalist.

2008: Top-3 in points were the finalists. Interesting to note that Iginla got the finalist nod over Datsyuk who had 1 point less, but 19 less goals. Datsyuk was the best defensive forward in the league - but being the best goal scorer > best defensive forward in this case clearly.

2009: Top-2 in points were finalists. Datsyuk (4th in points) did get the finalist nod over Crosby (3rd in points). Noteworthy that Crosby and Datsyuks goalscoring was equal - so this argument would actually be that Datsyuks defensive side put him over the edge since everything else was equal. Also note that even though Malkin had 3 more points than Ovi (slightly lower points/gp), Ovechkins huge goal dominance (21 goals over Malkin) is what won Ovi the Pearson.

2010: Top-3 in points were the finalists.

2011: Sedin and Perry were finalists and top-3 in points. Stamkos (who was 2nd in goals) got the other finalist spot (5th in points) over St Louis and H Sedin who both had more points (and were #1/2 in assists). Seems easy to say that his goalscoring was much more valued.

2012: Malkin and Stamkos got nominated, Giroux who was also 3rd in points (2nd in assists) and had a better point/gp than Stamkos (and only 4 less points) got left off the Pearson finalist compared to Stamkos who had a world-class goalscoring season despite very close overall in points/p/gp).

2013: 4 players in top-3 cause of tie for 3rd. Ovi lead in goals, Crosby lead in points/gp, and St. Louis lead in points - those 3 got nominated. Stamkos left off.

2014: Top-3 in points were the finalists.

2015: Price wins Pearson, and Benn (Art Ross), and Ovechkin (1st in goals but only 4th in points) get the other 2 Pearson nominations. Ovechkin also finishes 2nd in Hart - cementing him as the #1 forward that year. So despite Ovi finishing 4th that year in points, his goal dominance is clearly seen as more valuable.

2016: Top-2 in points were the finalists (with Holtby as a goalie rounding it out)

2017: McDavid and Crosby were top-2 in points and also 2 finalists. Note that Burns was the other finalist despite only scoring 4 more points than Hedman (who is a way better defensive D-man). The big difference between Burns and Hedman? Burns had 29 goals and Hedman had 16.

2018: McDavid wins (art Ross win), with Hall and Mackinnon rounding out the finalists. Weird AF year since neither Hall or Mackinnon were that great defensively (and Kopitar won the Selke despite having 1 less point than Hall). Clear that goalscoring, playmaking or defensive play had no bearring here to put anyone above anyone else.

2019: Top-3 in points were the finalists.

2020: Finally the first example where playmaking is clearly seen as more valuable. Drai wins (1st in points), McDavid who is 2nd in points (and assists) left off (largely because of split votes with Drai and not because of lower goalscoring). And then Panarin and Mackinnon round out finalists over Pastrnak despite Pastrnak having same/more points and more goals.

2021: McDavid wins (huge point lead), and Draisaitl who was 2nd in points gets votes split. Matthews gets a nomination despite being 5th in points and hardly any assists - but had a huge goalscoring lead. Crosby rounds it out, was 10th in points, 13th in goals, and 14th in points. He also wasn't any better defensively than Marchand (3rd in points) or Stone (3rd in Selke voting and only had 1 less point) - so clearly a name-recognition finalist when you break it down. Either way - clear that goalscoring was favorited in the Pearson placing when you look at Matthews

So yes - I think there is pretty good proof that goalscoring is seen as more valuable (not only statistically/mathematically, but also perception).

2022: Matthews wins despite only finishing 6th in points (note he had a killer goalscoring year). McDavid (art ross) is a finalist, and Josi is a finalist.

2023: Mcdavid wins (huge point lead, 1st in goals). Karlsson is a finalist as well. Pastrnak takes the last finalist spot (tied with Kucherov for 3rd in points). Pastrnak clearly got it due to his 61 goal season despite Kucherov having the same points (Mackinnon having also having 2 less points). Main difference being that Pastrnak had a huge goal lead on those 2.

2025: Mackinnon and Kucherov were #1 and #2 in points. Matthews had waaaay less points than McDavid, but also had a huge goal lead that year and over double the goals than McDavid (despite McDavid hitting that legendary 100 assist mark).

I have no idea what you are trying argue here. It's clear that overall offensive production, not just goals, is the primary factor in players getting recognition in awards. Goals are the tiebreaker for the Art Ross, that's it in terms of formal recognition.

Since 2005/06:

The Art Ross winner won the Hart Trophy 12 times and the Lindsay 12 times times.

The Rocket winner won the Hart Trophy 6 times and the Lindsay 5 times times.

The leader in assists won the Hart Trophy 8 times and the Lindsay 7 times times.

The two years the Art Ross winner/Rocket winner/Assist leader did not win either the Hart and/or Lindsay (2018 and 2024), those players were higher placed in assists than goals.

There is zero reason to downgrade a season due to not being among the goal leaders and especially in Crosby's case due to his value being enhanced by his ability to elevate his linemates and contribute defensively. He may have had the worse set of linemates over his career than any other Top 20 all-time talent.

 

[Mulletman]

I think getting suspended really got to McDavid. After comming back from the suspention McDavid has 2+6=8 points in 9 games, that's a pace of 0.88 points per game. McDavid had 20+45=65 points in 43 games before getting suspended, which is a 1.51 points per game pace. Crosby never got suspended for anything he did during his career and McDavid probably thought the league would never suspend him either since he's their golded goose. Can't be easy getting back to your game once you realize that the league is working against you and values you less than it values Crosby.

 

[daver]

Look at Pearson finalists and see where the deviations from top-3 in points are.

2006: Top-3 in points were the finalists.

2007: Crosby/Lecavalier were top-3 in points, and then Luongo rounds it out. Thornton had 6 more points than Lecavalier did, but Lecavalier was the best goalscorer in the league (as opposed to Thorntons 92 points), and he made the Pearson finalist.

2008: Top-3 in points were the finalists. Interesting to note that Iginla got the finalist nod over Datsyuk who had 1 point less, but 19 less goals. Datsyuk was the best defensive forward in the league - but being the best goal scorer > best defensive forward in this case clearly.

2009: Top-2 in points were finalists. Datsyuk (4th in points) did get the finalist nod over Crosby (3rd in points). Noteworthy that Crosby and Datsyuks goalscoring was equal - so this argument would actually be that Datsyuks defensive side put him over the edge since everything else was equal. Also note that even though Malkin had 3 more points than Ovi (slightly lower points/gp), Ovechkins huge goal dominance (21 goals over Malkin) is what won Ovi the Pearson.

2010: Top-3 in points were the finalists.

2011: Sedin and Perry were finalists and top-3 in points. Stamkos (who was 2nd in goals) got the other finalist spot (5th in points) over St Louis and H Sedin who both had more points (and were #1/2 in assists). Seems easy to say that his goalscoring was much more valued.

2012: Malkin and Stamkos got nominated, Giroux who was also 3rd in points (2nd in assists) and had a better point/gp than Stamkos (and only 4 less points) got left off the Pearson finalist compared to Stamkos who had a world-class goalscoring season despite very close overall in points/p/gp).

2013: 4 players in top-3 cause of tie for 3rd. Ovi lead in goals, Crosby lead in points/gp, and St. Louis lead in points - those 3 got nominated. Stamkos left off.

2014: Top-3 in points were the finalists.

2015: Price wins Pearson, and Benn (Art Ross), and Ovechkin (1st in goals but only 4th in points) get the other 2 Pearson nominations. Ovechkin also finishes 2nd in Hart - cementing him as the #1 forward that year. So despite Ovi finishing 4th that year in points, his goal dominance is clearly seen as more valuable.

2016: Top-2 in points were the finalists (with Holtby as a goalie rounding it out)

2017: McDavid and Crosby were top-2 in points and also 2 finalists. Note that Burns was the other finalist despite only scoring 4 more points than Hedman (who is a way better defensive D-man). The big difference between Burns and Hedman? Burns had 29 goals and Hedman had 16.

2018: McDavid wins (art Ross win), with Hall and Mackinnon rounding out the finalists. Weird AF year since neither Hall or Mackinnon were that great defensively (and Kopitar won the Selke despite having 1 less point than Hall). Clear that goalscoring, playmaking or defensive play had no bearring here to put anyone above anyone else.

2019: Top-3 in points were the finalists.

2020: Finally the first example where playmaking is clearly seen as more valuable. Drai wins (1st in points), McDavid who is 2nd in points (and assists) left off (largely because of split votes with Drai and not because of lower goalscoring). And then Panarin and Mackinnon round out finalists over Pastrnak despite Pastrnak having same/more points and more goals.

2021: McDavid wins (huge point lead), and Draisaitl who was 2nd in points gets votes split. Matthews gets a nomination despite being 5th in points and hardly any assists - but had a huge goalscoring lead. Crosby rounds it out, was 10th in points, 13th in goals, and 14th in points. He also wasn't any better defensively than Marchand (3rd in points) or Stone (3rd in Selke voting and only had 1 less point) - so clearly a name-recognition finalist when you break it down. Either way - clear that goalscoring was favorited in the Pearson placing when you look at Matthews

So yes - I think there is pretty good proof that goalscoring is seen as more valuable (not only statistically/mathematically, but also perception).

2022: Matthews wins despite only finishing 6th in points (note he had a killer goalscoring year). McDavid (art ross) is a finalist, and Josi is a finalist.

2023: Mcdavid wins (huge point lead, 1st in goals). Karlsson is a finalist as well. Pastrnak takes the last finalist spot (tied with Kucherov for 3rd in points). Pastrnak clearly got it due to his 61 goal season despite Kucherov having the same points (Mackinnon having also having 2 less points). Main difference being that Pastrnak had a huge goal lead on those 2.

2025: Mackinnon and Kucherov were #1 and #2 in points. Matthews had waaaay less points than McDavid, but also had a huge goal lead that year and over double the goals than McDavid (despite McDavid hitting that legendary 100 assist mark).

It's clear from the post above that when it comes down to determining the best/most valuable player, assist hold as much weight as goals. As for how much thought goes into who gets picked after that, is debatable.

For each year, you can give a nod to overall points, playmaking or goalscoring in terms of Hart/Lindsay recognition.

2005/06: Overall points -Thornton won the Hart on the strength of his playmaking while Jagr won the Lindsay as an overall offensive force, as he was his whole career. Ovechkin's goalscoring got him the Lindsay nomination.

2006/07: Overall points -Crosby win the Hart and Lindsay primarily on the strength of his playmaking while Lecavalier gets a Lindsay nomination primarily on the strength of his goalscoring.

2007/08: Overall points/Edge to Goalscoring -Ovechkin wins the Hart and Lindsay on the strength of his goalscoring, Malkin gets Hart/Lindsay nods primarily for his overall offense while Iginla gets a Lindsay nomination on the strength of his goalscoring. The possibility of Datsyuk getting Hart and Lindsay recognition are likely affected by Zetterberg's season, not a preference for goalscoring over defensive play.

2008/09: Overall points/Edge to Playmaking: Ovechkin wins the Hart and Lindsay on the strength of his goalscoring, Malkin gets Hart/Lindsay nods primarily for his playmaking while Datsyuk gets Hart/Lindsay nominations on the strength of his playmaking/defensive game.

2009/10: Overall points/Edge to goalscoring - Ovechkin wins the Lindsay on the strength of his goalscoring, Sedin win the Hart on the strength of his playmaking, and Crosby gets nods primarily on the strength of his goalscoring.

2010/11: Overall points - Sedin wins the Lindsay on the strength of his overall offense, Perry win the Hart on the strength of his goalscoring, Stamkos gets a Lindsay nod on the strength of his goalscoring, and St. Louis gets a Hart nod for his playmaking.

2011/12: Overall points/Edge to goalscoring - Malkin wins the Hart and Lindsay on the strength of his overall offense with an edge to his goalscoring, Stamkos gets Hart/Lindsay nods on the strength of his goalscoring.

2012/13: Overall points - Ovechkin wins the Hart on the strength of his goalscoring, Crosby win the Lindsay on the strength of his playmaking, St. Louis gets a Lindsay nod for his playmaking, while Tavares gets a Hart nod for his goalscoring.

2013/14: Playmaking - Crosbys win the Hart/Lindsay primarily on the strength of his playmaking, Getzlaf and Giroux get nods for their playmaking

2014/15: Overall points/Edge to goalscoring - Ovechkin gets Hart/Lindsay nods on the strength of his goalscoring, Benn gets a Lindsay nod primarily on the strength of his playmaking, and Tavares gets a Hart nod primarily on the strength of his goalscoring. Benn would have gotten a Hart nod if not for his team missing the playoffs.

2015/16: Overall points/Edge to goalscoring - Kane wins the Hart/Lindsay on the strength of his overall offensive game, Benn gets Hart/Lindsay nods primarily on the strength of his goalscoring, Crosby gets a Hart nod on the strength of his overall offensive game.

2016/17: Overall points - McDavid wins the Hart/Lindsay on the strength of his playmaking, Crosby gets Lindsay/Hart nods on the strength of his goalscoring.

2017/18: Overall points - McDavid wins the Lindsay with an edge to his playmaking, Hall wins the Hart with an edge to his goalscoring, MacKinnon gets Hart/Lindsay nods for strength of his overall offensive game and Kopitar gets a a Hart nod on the strength of his overall offensive game/defensive game

2018/19: Overall points/Edge to playmaking - Kucherov wins the Hart/Lindsay on the strength of his playmaking, McDavid gets Hart/Lindsay nods with an edge to his playmaking, Kane gets a Lindsay nod on the strength of his overall offensive game, while Crosby gets a Hart nod primarily based on his playmaking/defensive game.

2019/20: Overall points/Edge to playmaking - Draisaitl wins the Hart/Lindsay on the strength of his overall offensive game, MacKinnon gets Hart/Lindsay nods strength of his overall offensive game, Panarin gets Hart/Lindsay nods on the strength of his playmaking.

2020/21: Overall points/Edge to playmaking - McDavid wins the Hart/Lindsay on the strength of his overall game with a clear edge to his playmaking, Matthews gets Hart/Lindsay nods on the strength of goalscoring, MacKinnon gets a Lindsay nod strength of his playmaking, Crosby gets a Lindsay nod on the strength of his overall offensive game.

2021/22: Overall points/Edge to goalscoring - Matthews wins the Hart/Lindsay on the strength of goalscoring and McDavid gets Hart/Lindsay nods on the strength of his overall game with a clear edge to his playmaking.

2022/23: Overall points/Edge to goalscoring - McDavid wins Hart/Lindsay on the strength of his overall game. Pastrnak gets Hart/Lindsay nods on the strength of his goalscoring, Tkachuk gets a Hart nod on the strength of his overall game with an edge to his playmaking.

2023/24: Overall points/Edge to playmaking - MacKinnon wins Hart/Lindsay on the strength of his overall game. Kucherov gets Hart/Lindsay nods on the strength of his playmaking. McDavid gets a Hart nod on the strength of his playmaking, and Matthews gets gets a Lindsay nod on the strength of his goalscoring,


Here are the number of times a player got recognized for their:

Playmaking - 22 times
Goalscoring - 20 times
All around offensive game - 16 times