Olympics: Olympic Boxing

[GKJ]

No Sharp, Bishop and Jozwik were not three 'white women grouping up' and declaring themselves the winners. They were consoling each other over the circumstances they were placed in by the IOC and others that were unfair to them and everyone else in the field. Canada's Melissa Bishop worked so hard and was ROBBED of her gold medal and title of Olympic Champion by three questionable competitors that finished ahead of her. Watching her being interviewed by CBC after the race with her completely broken down in tears and wanting to say something about the situation, but not being able to was heartbreaking.

As I said before whether or not you believe Caster Semenya and the silver and bronze winners are male, female or somewhere in between, if you knew absolutely nothing about them and simply saw them on the street, I would find it extremely hard to believe that your first thought would be to assume them to be female rather than male.

Close your eyes and listen to Semenya speak and tell me your first thought is 'female' rather than 'middle aged man'.

This is exactly the dangerous type of arbitrary determinations that people sound alarm bells over. Literal exhibit A.

 

[JPT]

Of course they do... for now. But let's not pretend that by and large the activists/"be kind" people, who have a lot of influence nowadays on everything, are not striving for a world where self-identification is all that matters, including sports. And then it would be women, and only women, who'd have to face the consequences, since no woman who identifies as a man — or an intersex person, for that matter — will ever dominate or even be at the top of a sport where physicality plays a role. I picked tennis as an example only because it's one of the few sports where women's game has been at least almost as popular as the men's. So any such unfairness would get noticed around the world, and then this issue would have to be tackled and stances would have to be taken. Tired of being patronized and ridiculed that this is such a minor issue that making any fuss about is somehow ignorant/wrong. Good ol' "nothing to see here" nonsense over and over and over again.

As for the Khelif 'situation', IMO there shouldn't be any gray areas; why should intersex people be fighting against women exactly? Because it's fair to... them? I've not seen a good argument for that yet. In this case, the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater. Sorry but not sorry.

PS. Don't understand why Michael Phelps' name is mentioned in this discussion; he was a man, albeit an exceptional one, facing other men in the pool.

That's a hell of a slippery slope fallacy you've got going there. How many assumptions do you usually have to make to come to a conclusion that finds discrimination acceptable?

Whether you believe some intersex athletes are men or women or somewhere in between, its pretty clear that they are VERY masculine looking. If you saw Caster Semenya or Imane Khelif on the street and knew nothing about them, I have hard time believing that you would say to yourself that they're female rather than assuming they were male.

You know, basing what things a person is allowed to do in a society on how they appear has never turned out good.

 

[VMBM]

That's a hell of a slippery slope fallacy you've got going there. How many assumptions do you usually have to make to come to a conclusion that finds discrimination acceptable?

It would be a lot easier to response if you were a little (= a lot) more specific. For example, what terrible discrimination might you be referring to?

 

[JPT]

It would be a lot easier to response if you were a little (= a lot) more specific. For example, what terrible discrimination might you be referring to?

In this particular case, you are advocating for discriminating against persons born with vaginas, who have identified as female for their entire lives, because the IBA simply claims to have proven those female persons have XY chromosomes. Even if they do, there are medical conditions which can cause that in, once again, a person who was born with female sex organs and always has identified as a female.

You also fail to clearly define what a "gray area" is, which history has shown to be incredibly dangerous. You are making an assumption that a female who was born a female and continues to be a female being allowed to participate in women's sports will result in men simply claiming to identify as women so they can dominate in women's sports. There is no reason to make that assumption other than to justify discrimination. You say you've yet to see a good argument for why "intersex" people (once again, in the case that sparked your poorly thought out argument, we are talking about a female, not an "intersex" person). Based on how atrocious your argument is, I have trouble believing you would admit to recognizing a good argument, or accept it if you did.

Simply put, nothing you said is based on reality, and all of it is meant to justify disallowing a person from doing something based solely on how you view that person's gender.

 

[GQS]

Some 5-10 % of all women in this age have hyperandrogenism and resulting high testosterone levels, only a small fraction of them have XY chromosomes. Most commonly it is caused by PCOS (polycystic ovary syndrome). We can ban all women with XY chromosomes in sports without exception and that still doesn't significantly affect the number of female athletes with hyperandrogenism. If we wish to be that cynical then a lot more would be achieved by banning women with PCOS, but obviously that's not even discussed because (without wishing to belittle their condition in any way) the social stigma they face is nothing comparable to intersex women.

Why not have a public discussion on this issue and ask the female athletes who are involved in these sports what their opinion on this issue is? What they believe is an unfair advantage vs something that's acceptable and what guidelines should be in place that female athletes should meet to compete with other women? Let them vote on it as well because at the end of the day they're the ones competing in the those sports so they should have a say versus someone else pushing a decision upon them whether they agree with it or not.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Does her competing really change anyone’s life here?

No

My only issue here is the guy claiming trans to be “mentally unstable”. The moment they said that was the moment I knew their narrative of anything was never going to be changed.

Hey guy, that was me.

First of all, him competing does change people’s life. A man stepping into a fighting arena with a woman is extremely dangerous and someone probably is quite literally going to be killed at some point because of this insanity.

What’s the need to protect the .001 of people who come up with this stuff that they need all kinds of special protections and categories that apply to themselves? Does this person have a medical condition? Maybe so (usually they’ll just claim they transitioned), but even at face value that this person has a medical condition, why do they come before the vast majority of competitors?

Because that’s what you’re suggesting. You’d rather protect what you view as the right of the very rare individual, one who I fully believe is mentally unstable to pretend to be the opposite sex to physically beat up on females. I’d say any male that takes enjoyment from beating up a female is mentally unstable. I’d rather protect the population. No one is telling these people how to live their life. They can call themselves whatever they want, but that should not be imposed on everyone else. They should not be entitled to physically endanger opponents and make a mockery of sport because of whatever conditions they may have (physical, mental, spiritual).

 

[GQS]

This is exactly the dangerous type of arbitrary determinations that people sound alarm bells over. Literal exhibit A.

Why not simply have clear guidelines in place so that there won't be any misunderstandings then? Let female athletes decide what they believe is acceptable and unacceptable, fair or unfair so that they don't have to get upset about something being thrust upon them whether they like it or not. If the majority of female athletes in each sport isn't comfortable with competing against trans, intersex athletes etc. then so it be. Let them compete in their own category. If they're fine with competing against them that's cool too, but that should be THEIR decision.

 

[GKJ]

Why not simply have clear guidelines in place so that there won't be any misunderstandings then? Let female athletes decide what they believe is acceptable and unacceptable, fair or unfair so that they don't have to get upset about something being thrust upon them whether they like it or not. If the majority of female athletes in each sport isn't comfortable with competing against trans, intersex athletes etc. then so it be. Let them compete in their own category. If they're fine with competing against them that's cool too, but that should be THEIR decision.

If anyone is uncomfortable with those who have the right to participate in their sport, they’re free to go find something else to do.

 

[Albatros]

Why not have a public discussion on this issue and ask the female athletes who are involved in these sports what their opinion on this issue is? What they believe is an unfair advantage vs something that's acceptable and what guidelines should be in place that female athletes should meet to compete with other women? Let them vote on it as well because at the end of the day they're the ones competing in the those sports so they should have a say versus someone else pushing a decision upon them whether they agree with it or not.

Should any athletes wish to establish their own federation and a system of governance based on such principles they are free to do so.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It happened again.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1819403434287943759

 

[Jussi]

This is sort of IOC's own making by not adopting the standards of the boxing federations. But calling these athletes "men" (in the other thread) just because of their naturally higher testosterone production is both ignorant and insulting.

Slight amendment to this: "by not adopting the standards of other boxing federations, ones more refutable than the IBA."

Also, having Y-chromosomes does not make a person automatically a male.

If someone has a Y chromosome they will always just be a male regardless of how many possible but rare extra chromosomes of X’s or Y’s th...

Answer (1 of 16): No. There are XY people with complete androgen insensitivity, who may be born with female genitalia (but no uterus) and fully identify as female. Many people who have this don’t publicize it, but jazz vocalist Eden Atwood is one person who is open about her condition. As far as ...

www.quora.com

 

[Jussi]

Lin Yu-Ting is even less dominant than Khelif: Who is Lin Yu‑ting? Taiwan’s Olympic boxer who failed a gender eligibility test

She's lost 14 times.

And also:

While the IBA did not specify why the boxers failed their gender eligibility tests, they have clarified that neither underwent testosterone examinations. Neither Lin, nor Khelif, identify as transgender or intersex.

And on the subject of Khelif:

Childhood of boxer Imane Khelif as she faces accusations of being ‘biological male’

Imane Khelif was told she had the right ‘physical qualities’ to be a boxer

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Jussi]

No Sharp, Bishop and Jozwik were not three 'white women grouping up' and declaring themselves the winners. They were consoling each other over the circumstances they were placed in by the IOC and others that were unfair to them and everyone else in the field. Canada's Melissa Bishop worked so hard and was ROBBED of her gold medal and title of Olympic Champion by three questionable competitors that finished ahead of her. Watching her being interviewed by CBC after the race with her completely broken down in tears and wanting to say something about the situation, but not being able to was heartbreaking.

As I said before whether or not you believe Caster Semenya and the silver and bronze winners are male, female or somewhere in between, if you knew absolutely nothing about them and simply saw them on the street, I would find it extremely hard to believe that your first thought would be to assume them to be female rather than male.

Close your eyes and listen to Semenya speak and tell me your first thought is 'female' rather than 'middle aged man'.

No close your eyes and listen to this, does this sound like a typical female voice:

 

[GQS]

If anyone is uncomfortable with those who have the right to participate in their sport, they’re free to go find something else to do.

Remember when Spock said 'The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few'? In the west we've completely thrown that out the window where even the needs of an extreme few outweigh the needs of the many all in the name of 'inclusion and tolerance' with practically no limits.

All those female athletes who dedicate their lives, time and resources to becoming the best they can be shouldn't be forced to compete with a few people who might have an unfair advantage. Why are we sacrificing all these female athletes just to be inclusive of a few outliers? If female athletes really want that for their particular sport then let them vote on it and decide for themselves rather than being pushed onto them whether they want it or not.

Men are lucky that they will never have to deal with this issue. Women aren't that lucky and they should be given some protection so that they can compete fairly against each other. I get that we in the west want to be accomodating, inclusive and tolerant, but THERE HAS TO BE LIMITS not just in sports, but also in society in general.

 

[GQS]

Should any athletes wish to establish their own federation and a system of governance based on such principles they are free to do so.

What would be the point? Even if that actually happened and athletes got together and they DID create their own organization, but excluded certain groups of people like trans or intersex and so on, people would call them intolerant, anti-LGBT etc. anyways and try their best to destroy them and we're now back to square one.

 

[JoVel]

I'm a little confused why we're complaining about trans women competing in women's sports when the person in question is in fact not a trans woman?

 

[Albatros]

Remember when Spock said 'The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few'? In the west we've completely thrown that out the window where even the needs of an extreme few outweigh the needs of the many all in the name of 'inclusion and tolerance' with practically no limits.

All those female athletes who dedicate their lives, time and resources to becoming the best they can be shouldn't be forced to compete with a few people who might have an unfair advantage. Why are we sacrificing all these female athletes just to be inclusive of a few outliers? If female athletes really want that for their particular sport then let them vote on it and decide for themselves rather than being pushed onto them whether they want it or not.

Men are lucky that they will never have to deal with this issue. Women aren't that lucky and they should be given some protection so that they can compete fairly against each other. I get that we in the west want to be accomodating, inclusive and tolerant, but THERE HAS TO BE LIMITS not just in sports, but also in society in general.

Women with PCOS have the same type of advantage, they're some 10 % of the total population in relevant age segment and one can assume significantly more than that of top-level athletes. Should they also be banned in your opinion, and if not, why not?

A common disease among women can provide training benefits - University of Skövde

Women with PCOS perform better in physical tests compared to other female athletes, especially in explosive disciplines such as sprinting.

www.his.se

 

[GKJ]

Remember when Spock said 'The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few'? In the west we've completely thrown that out the window where even the needs of an extreme few outweigh the needs of the many all in the name of 'inclusion and tolerance' with practically no limits.

All those female athletes who dedicate their lives, time and resources to becoming the best they can be shouldn't be forced to compete with a few people who might have an unfair advantage. Why are we sacrificing all these female athletes just to be inclusive of a few outliers? If female athletes really want that for their particular sport then let them vote on it and decide for themselves rather than being pushed onto them whether they want it or not.

Men are lucky that they will never have to deal with this issue. Women aren't that lucky and they should be given some protection so that they can compete fairly against each other. I get that we in the west want to be accomodating, inclusive and tolerant, but THERE HAS TO BE LIMITS not just in sports, but also in society in general.

They were always incisive of your so-called outliers when to came to competition. It is only now that people want to baselessly determine without any real scientific evidence. You are now looking to exclude them. They have their rights, too. This is now an attempt to take them away. They had no say in this worldwide society that was built that determined gender was a black-and-white construct. Now we’re going to witch-hunt who is and is not woman enough to compete against other women.

 

[GQS]

Women with PCOS have the same type of advantage, they're some 10 % of the total population in relevant age segment and one can assume significantly more than that of top-level athletes. Should they also be banned in your opinion, and if not, why not?

Again why not let the female athletes decide that for their particular sports? Canada already sent a trans archer to the Olympics back in Tokyo to compete with the women and it made no difference and I don't think anyone really complained because that's a sport that requires skill more than anything.

Would a trans/intersex etc. athlete make a difference in table tennis or badminton? Possibly, but it would require that athlete to be just as skilled as the other female athletes because you can't bash your way through the opposition with physical strength. How about for more physical sports like swimming or many track and field events? There I think it could make a more significant difference because those are sports that rely heavily on the physical more than just skill.

So why not allow female athletes from different sports to decide based on whether or not it significantly affects them and the integrity and fairness of their sport?

 

[Regal]

Remember when Spock said 'The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few'? In the west we've completely thrown that out the window where even the needs of an extreme few outweigh the needs of the many all in the name of 'inclusion and tolerance' with practically no limits.

All those female athletes who dedicate their lives, time and resources to becoming the best they can be shouldn't be forced to compete with a few people who might have an unfair advantage. Why are we sacrificing all these female athletes just to be inclusive of a few outliers? If female athletes really want that for their particular sport then let them vote on it and decide for themselves rather than being pushed onto them whether they want it or not.

Men are lucky that they will never have to deal with this issue. Women aren't that lucky and they should be given some protection so that they can compete fairly against each other. I get that we in the west want to be accomodating, inclusive and tolerant, but THERE HAS TO BE LIMITS not just in sports, but also in society in general.

You’re making it out like this is some David vs. Goliath situation when we’re talking about someone who doesn’t even have an amazing record as a boxer. Having an advantage (and let’s be clear, there’s no official determination here that there is an advantage other than a corrupt organizational head talking to media) automatically unfair nor does it mean other women can’t compete. The sob story of women dedicating their lives to be the best is no different than the women who do so and fail to make the Olympics in the first place.

 

[Regal]

It happened again.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1819403434287943759

What happened? Idiots like Charlie Kirk said some inflammatory bullshit that’s completely wrong? That’s every day.

 

[GQS]

They were always incisive of your so-called outliers when to came to competition. It is only now that people want to baselessly determine without any real scientific evidence. You are now looking to exclude them. They have their rights, too. This is now an attempt to take them away. They had no say in this worldwide society that was built that determined gender was a black-and-white construct. Now we’re going to witch-hunt who is and is not woman enough to compete against other women.

Trans/intersex and others have their rights, but so does everyone else and the rights of the few should rarely if ever be more important that the rights of the many which unfortunately happens all too often in our society these days.

Female athletes should be able to compete fairly amongst each other and it should be up to them as to what they believe is fair and just and what's not for their particular sports. As I said in another post, Canada already sent a trans archer to compete at the Tokyo games and the impact was almost nil because archery requires skill more than anything else. Allowing a trans/intersex athlete to compete in swimming or many track and field events is vastly different because in those events the physical makeup of the athlete manners significantly more and can have a significant impact on results. So for those sports we need to be more careful with the decisions we make.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

What happened?

Says in the first line.

 

[TaLoN]

Boxer Imane Khelif did nothing wrong. If anything, her story is remarkable

Being a 'freak' of nature was always a good thing in sports. We don't think twice when athletes' biologies give them advantages – unless they're women

www.yahoo.com

 

[Regal]

Says in the first line.

lol. Yea I’m aware of what it says. The point is it didn’t happen, nor did anything happen “again”, because it’s made up bullshit since there wasn’t a “man” in the match or in the previous match that got these people in a tizzy