Olympics: Olympic Boxing

[Il Stugotz]

Guess how many KOs she’s had in 45 fights:

Spoiler

4

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

"This dude is more flexible than other guys" vs "Woman-man hybrid fighting woman"

You thought that was a good comparison?

The fact that she's lost to other pure woman doesn't mean a damn thing in tems of even playing field. If anything it means she lost even with a likely unfair advantage

Okay but why do we give Wembanyama a pass for being 7'4 and a natural athleticism never seen in a man that big, but a possibly intersex woman has higher natural testosterone and suddenly we're pearl clutching about even playing fields? Both are natural advantages they were born with. And as others have pointed out, Khelif isn't exactly the Simone Biles of women's boxing.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Okay but why do we give Wembanyama a pass for being 7'4 and a natural athleticism never seen in a man that big, but a possibly intersex woman has higher natural testosterone and suddenly we're pearl clutching about even playing fields? Both are natural advantages they were born with. And as others have pointed out, Khelif isn't exactly the Simone Biles of women's boxing.

Because they're fundamentally different and not comparable. Men and women concede other men/women might be taller or faster than them in their given sports.

A person who might be a man or at least have male DNA and physical male characteristics going against women who don’t is a whole other ballgame.

 

[TheBeard]

I find it fascinating that a Muslim country like Algeria would be totally fine with fielding a Trans that has been beaten by women before.

Or...maybe she's not Trans and this is just more pearl clutching by the usual people? Can't wait to see what the next manufactured outrage is.

There were some who already had a hate boner for the Olympics after the opening ceremony. They’re just looking for anything that helps justify their narrative so they can announce for a second time they’re not watching.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Men and women concede other men/women might be taller or faster than them in their given sports.

Right, so why does this standard not apply to Khelif?

 

[Bounces R Way]

How do you fail a gender test? Is that what happened? She was born a female and doesn't identify as trans? What's the problem then?

I don't generally get my news from twitter but I do peruse it usually at least once or twice a day and this shit is everywhere with people giving their 2 cents. The post-truth era is truly the strangest I've experienced. This is what happens when a robust free independent press ceases to exist.

 

[JPT]

How do you fail a gender test? Is that what happened? She was born a female and doesn't identify as trans? What's the problem then?

I don't generally get my news from twitter but I do peruse it usually at least once or twice a day and this shit is everywhere with people giving their 2 cents. The post-truth era is truly the strangest I've experienced. This is what happens without a robust free independent press ceases to exist.

The IBA has not disclosed what kind of test was failed, only that she was "proven" to have XY chromosomes. There are conditions that cause women to present XY chromosomes.

The IOC does not recognize the IBA, which is why the ban isn't being honored in the Olympics. The IOC charges that the decision to ban them from the world championships was a unilateral and arbitrary decision made solely by the CEO of the IBA. There's some talk about how the Kremlin could have influenced decisions, but I don't know if that's true or just more anti-Russia bullshit.

 

[Jussi]

The IBA has not disclosed what kind of test was failed, only that she was "proven" to have XY chromosomes. There are conditions that allow women to present XY chromosomes.

The IOC does not recognize the IBA, which is why the ban isn't being honored in the Olympics. The IOC charges that the decision to ban them from the world championships was a unilateral and arbitrary decision made solely by the CEO of the IBA. There's some talk about how the Kremlin could have influenced decisions, but I don't know if that's true or just more anti-Russia bullshit.

The president of the IBA is an oligarch, very much a Kremlin dummy/Putin ally:

Putin's ally running world amateur boxing looks to uphold Russian soft power

Since 2020, Umar Kremlev has been chairing the International Amateur Boxing Association (IBA). The bold 40-year-old is not afraid to challenge the International Olympic Committee.

www.lemonde.fr

Reddit post:

In 2006, Wu Ching-kuo took over the AIBA. Wu's objectives were basically to make himself head of all olympic sport, and to make AIBA control all boxing in the world. To achieve these things, he encouraged match-rigging as a way of giving favours to people who would support him politically within the IOC. He did this by removing the objective, real-time, transparent scoring system that the previous regime had introduced to end the match-rigging that had caused outrage in the 1980s, and replacing it with a 10-point must system, the same as in professional boxing. This also helped him blur the lines between professional and amateur boxing, so that the amateur AIBA could become the fifth (and paramount, because they also controlled the olympics) profesisonal boxing sanctioning organisation. Similarly, he removed headguards, allowed professionals to compete at the olympics, sanctioned professional bouts, and tried to create an intermediate 'semi-professional' class of bouts.

Doing this not only introduced a lot of corruption, but also sent AIBA bankrupt, because he borrowed vast amounts of money to fund his new professional and semi-professional leagues (and possibly to bribe people). He lost his IOC bid, and then the IOC took olympic boxing away from AIBA, and AIBA nearly collapsed, and Wu was sacked and banned from any involvement in amateur boxing ever again.

In 2020, a different group of corrupt officials took over, promising to cut down on corruption and save the IBA from Wu's mess. This was Umar Kremlev, an oligarch, and he 'saved' the IBA by giving it to the Kremlin. The Kremlin (via Gazprom) stepped in to erase all the organization's debts and become its permanent sole sponsor. In gratitude, the IBA's HQ was moved to Moscow and restaffed with Russians. The name was changed to the IBA to remove connexions with the old organisation, and elections were ended, making Kremlev president for life, in effect. Kremlev reportedly has spent a lot of the organisation's money on himself, and has purged political rivals.

In response, the IOC has completely de-recognized the IBA (rather than just not letting them run the olympics, as before), and many countries' national federations have left the IBA and set up a rival organisation.

 

[TaLoN]

Right, so why does this standard not apply to Khelif?

50 years ago, someone born with female reproductive organs would've just been called female and that was the end of it. Now, people are so uptight about transgenderism, they want to project that hate on anyone they think is remotely close to that. They can't use "sex assigned at birth" in this case, so now it's about XY chromosomes which most people never actually get tested for unless there are health reasons to even look for. Most commonly during or after puberty.

 

[VMBM]

How is that in any way related to the Khelif situation?

Also, the WTA already has rules against this if I recall correctly.

Of course they do... for now. But let's not pretend that by and large the activists/"be kind" people, who have a lot of influence nowadays on everything, are not striving for a world where self-identification is all that matters, including sports. And then it would be women, and only women, who'd have to face the consequences, since no woman who identifies as a man — or an intersex person, for that matter — will ever dominate or even be at the top of a sport where physicality plays a role. I picked tennis as an example only because it's one of the few sports where women's game has been at least almost as popular as the men's. So any such unfairness would get noticed around the world, and then this issue would have to be tackled and stances would have to be taken. Tired of being patronized and ridiculed that this is such a minor issue that making any fuss about is somehow ignorant/wrong. Good ol' "nothing to see here" nonsense over and over and over again.

As for the Khelif 'situation', IMO there shouldn't be any gray areas; why should intersex people be fighting against women exactly? Because it's fair to... them? I've not seen a good argument for that yet. In this case, the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater. Sorry but not sorry.

PS. Don't understand why Michael Phelps' name is mentioned in this discussion; he was a man, albeit an exceptional one, facing other men in the pool.

 

[MXD]

Of course they do... for now. But let's not pretend that by and large the activists/"be kind" people, who have a lot of influence nowadays on everything, are not striving for a world where self-identification is all that matters, including sports. And then it would be women, and only women, who'd have to face the consequences, since no woman who identifies as a man — or an intersex person, for that matter — will ever dominate or even be at the top of a sport where physicality plays a role. I picked tennis as an example only because it's one of the few sports where women's game has been at least almost as popular as the men's. So any such unfairness would get noticed around the world, and then this issue would have to be tackled and stances would have to be taken. Tired of being patronized and ridiculed that this is such a minor issue that making any fuss about is somehow ignorant/wrong. Good ol' "nothing to see here" nonsense over and over and over again.

As for the Khelif 'situation', IMO there shouldn't be any gray areas; why should intersex people be fighting against women exactly? Because it's fair to... them? I've not seen a good argument for that yet. In this case, the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater. Sorry but not sorry.

PS. Don't understand why Michael Phelps' name is mentioned in this discussion; he was a man, albeit an exceptional one, facing other men in the pool.

...You really thought I'd read that garbage?

 

[VMBM]

...You really thought I'd read that garbage?

Hey, I read your friggin' garbage! Not fair.

 

[GQS]

This is sort of IOC's own making by not adopting the standards of the boxing federations. But calling these athletes "men" (in the other thread) just because of their naturally higher testosterone production is both ignorant and insulting.

Whether you believe some intersex athletes are men or women or somewhere in between, its pretty clear that they are VERY masculine looking. If you saw Caster Semenya or Imane Khelif on the street and knew nothing about them, I have hard time believing that you would say to yourself that they're female rather than assuming they were male.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

There is more of an outrage over this than the fact that a rapist is allowed to participate in the Olympics. A bloke that at 19, flew to the UK to rape a 12yr old child.

The reason the other stuff is more of an issue is because it's a hot button topic by the usual dipshits on x/shitter and other bottom feeder "news" outlets that whine.

 

[GQS]

Um, to raise an uproar? I know it's easy for me to say, since I'm "just a guy on the internet", but quite frankly I'm disgusted that so few high profile female athletes/ex-athletes (well, there's Martina Navratilova and...mmm?) are being vocal about this shit.

If you want to risk being cancelled and having your career ruined, then its difficult to speak up unless alot of athletes do so at the same time. Just look at Lynsey Sharp who was a runner in that 800m race with Melissa Bishop. This was her response immediately after the race:



Not even anything super controversial or inflammatory and yet she was attacked and threatened by people in the LGBT community to the point where she just deleted her Twitter account. Even when she retired a few months back and made a short video about it and it got posted on Twitter there's still a few people calling her names after all these years.

Also during the 2016 Rio games, immediately after the 800m race, a Canadian coach says he DID want to speak up about the issue, but was told not to by Canada's Olympic Committee.

"An Injustice" : Former Canadian Olympic Head Coach Speaks Out Against Results Of 2016 Olympics, Calls For Sex-Segregated Sport - Reduxx

Athletics Canada’s former head coach has come forward to reveal that he was threatened by the Canadian Olympic Committee lawyers after expressing discontent with the results of the women’s 800m at the 2016 Olympic Games. The competition saw three biological males take the top spots, displacing...

reduxx.info

Speaking to Reduxx, former Athletics Canada head coach Peter Eriksson says that he was outraged at the results of the 2016 women’s 800m, and had wanted to speak out against the injustice on behalf of Melissa Bishop, the Canadian female runner who would have come in first place if not for the three male athletes.Peter Eriksson. Photo Credit: Athletics Canada.

“I was the first one to see Melissa after the race and what do you even say in that scenario? ‘You’re the best woman in the race?’ You don’t get a medal for that,” Eriksson says. “This was such an injustice I wanted to speak out, and then I got a call from the Canadian Olympic Committee’s lawyer saying that if I opened my mouth, I would be banned for life in sport.”

 

[GQS]

So this woman is vilified because her condition supposedly gives her magical advantages (despite the fact she competed in Tokyo and won precisely nothing) and yet Michael Phelps, who has quirks with his genetic makeup that gave him actual, honest to god advantages (less lactic acid production, double jointed to make kicks easier) isn't

make sense.

Why don't you ask Melissa Bishop and every other runner in the 800m final in the 2016 Olympic games if Caster Semenya and the other two medal winners didn't have an advantage over the rest of the female runners in the field? She was literally ROBBED of a gold medal and the title of Olympic Champion.

 

[BB79]

There is more of an outrage over this than the fact that a rapist is allowed to participate in the Olympics.

I agree, there should be equal outrage, both are appalling.

 

[Albatros]

Whether you believe some intersex athletes are men or women or somewhere in between, its pretty clear that they are VERY masculine looking. If you saw Caster Semenya or Imane Khelif on the street and knew nothing about them, I have hard time believing that you would say to yourself that they're female rather than assuming they were male.

Many of the athletes in these 66 kg quarterfinals alone could appear as masculine to some if going by subjective aesthetics alone, but what does that matter? Intersex women may have significantly higher than average testosterone production and potentially benefit of it, but that in itself is a trait likely shared by a number of women in top-level boxing, whatever the cause. Singling out a few individuals because of their natural abilities so that others with their own innate advantages could have that success instead comes across as rather hypocritical.

 

[Albatros]

If you want to risk being cancelled and having your career ruined, then its difficult to speak up unless alot of athletes do so at the same time. Just look at Lynsey Sharp who was a runner in that 800m race with Melissa Bishop. This was her response immediately after the race:



Not even anything super controversial or inflammatory

You mean three white women grouping up and essentially declaring themselves the real winners over three black women that actually won the race? Jóźwik may have done most of the heavy lifting but also Sharp's comments don't come across well at all in that context.

Fifth-placed runner behind Semenya 'feels like silver medalist' and glad she was the 'second white'

Jozwik controversially claimed that she was proud to have finished as the 'first European' and 'second white'

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Jussi]

Why don't you ask Melissa Bishop and every other runner in the 800m final in the 2016 Olympic games if Caster Semenya and the other two medal winners didn't have an advantage over the rest of the female runners in the field? She was literally ROBBED of a gold medal and the title of Olympic Champion.

She was not.

And since no one asked I'll give it to you any way. Here's "Jarmo":

 

[GQS]

You mean three white women grouping up and essentially declaring themselves the real winners over three black women that actually won the race? Jóźwik may have done most of the heavy lifting but also Sharp's comments don't come across well at all in that context.

No Sharp, Bishop and Jozwik were not three 'white women grouping up' and declaring themselves the winners. They were consoling each other over the circumstances they were placed in by the IOC and others that were unfair to them and everyone else in the field. Canada's Melissa Bishop worked so hard and was ROBBED of her gold medal and title of Olympic Champion by three questionable competitors that finished ahead of her. Watching her being interviewed by CBC after the race with her completely broken down in tears and wanting to say something about the situation, but not being able to was heartbreaking.

As I said before whether or not you believe Caster Semenya and the silver and bronze winners are male, female or somewhere in between, if you knew absolutely nothing about them and simply saw them on the street, I would find it extremely hard to believe that your first thought would be to assume them to be female rather than male.

Close your eyes and listen to Semenya speak and tell me your first thought is 'female' rather than 'middle aged man'.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I agree, there should be equal outrage, both are appalling.

Yeah no, one is, like the rapist, and the other is appalling to ignorant walnuts.

 

[Albatros]

No Sharp, Bishop and Jozwik were not three 'white women grouping up' and declaring themselves the winners. They were consoling each other over the circumstances they were placed in by the IOC and others that were unfair to them and everyone else in the field. Canada's Melissa Bishop worked so hard and was ROBBED of her gold medal and title of Olympic Champion by three questionable competitors that finished ahead of her. Watching her being interviewed by CBC after the race with her completely broken down in tears and wanting to say something about the situation, but not being able to was heartbreaking.

As I said before whether or not you believe Caster Semenya and the silver and bronze winners are male, female or somewhere in between, if you knew absolutely nothing about them and simply saw them on the street, I would find it extremely hard to believe that your first thought would be to assume them to be female rather than male.

Close your eyes and listen to Semenya speak and tell me your first thought is 'female' rather than 'middle aged man'.

Some 5-10 % of all women in this age have hyperandrogenism and resulting high testosterone levels, only a small fraction of them have XY chromosomes. Most commonly it is caused by PCOS (polycystic ovary syndrome). We can ban all women with XY chromosomes in sports without exception and that still doesn't significantly affect the number of female athletes with hyperandrogenism. If we wish to be that cynical then a lot more would be achieved by banning women with PCOS, but obviously that's not even discussed because (without wishing to belittle their condition in any way) the social stigma they face is nothing comparable to intersex women.

 

[TheBeard]

Does her competing really change anyone’s life here?

No

My only issue here is the guy claiming trans to be “mentally unstable”. The moment they said that was the moment I knew their narrative of anything was never going to be changed.

 

[AlanHUK]

The 'trans' narrative around it is ridiculous, because there's been nothing reported at all to say or even imply she is trans.

But concern that someone who was banned for failing a gender test, appealed to CAS and subsequently dropped that appeal, making the ban legally binding, is competing in the Olympics, shouldn't be something that would surprise anyone.

Sadly any reasonable discussion around the situation isn't going to be possible because of the issue being hijacked for the sake of political point scoring.

This isn't new either and the olympics only dropped chromosome testing in 96.

The difference between gender and sex seems to be at the heart of it, and realistically until a definitive decision on whether sporting categories are split based on sex or gender and where the lines are within those, this kind of thing will keep coming up.