Prospect Info: 2024 Ducks Prospect Rankings #13
- Thread starter MMC
- Start date
-
HF Sportsbook has been reset for the new season - Click here to play.
WhatTheDuck
9 - 20 - 8
I think Ian Moore is the top NHL prospect remaining on the list. I'm going to ignore any concerns about his Ducks figure and just vote based on that.
- Jul 25, 2012
- 42,347
- 39,117
Arthuros
Registered Snoozer
Nester again. Higher chance to be an NHLer even if his ceiling probably wouldn't be as high as Sidorov's ceiling (who I'm not sold on in the same way I'm not sold on Pastujov).
Afterwards it's Moore, Pastujov and Sidorov as the big blob for me.
Afterwards it's Moore, Pastujov and Sidorov as the big blob for me.
I've voted Warren the past few times. I don't know that he's actually a better prospect than any of these other guys, but the Ducks sure could use a shutdown RHD.
McDonald19
Registered User
I’m voting Warren now too. Top 4 physical RHD is intriguing upside. I realize he is very boom or bust though.
Hockey Duckie
Registered User
Maybe it's recency bias between the high end scorers who can't skate that Sidorov is getting most of the votes? Fans quickly forget how Pastujov terrorized the OHL in his D+2 season. For Pasta's D-1 season, he was part of the US NTDP and originally slated to go the NCAA route. Pastujov spent last year in the AHL for his pro rookie season. Here's a comparison between all three in their CHL careers of Pastujov, Sidorov, and Massé.
| Pastujov | CHL | ||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Season | Year | League | GP | G | A | Pts | PPG | +/- | |
| D+1 | 2021-22 | OHL - Guelph | 65 | 34 | 42 | 76 | 1.17 | -12 | |
| D+2 | 2022-23 | OHL - Guelph | 14 | 11 | 8 | 19 | 1.36 | -6 | |
| 2022-23 | OHL - Sarnia | 46 | 30 | 49 | 79 | 1.72 | 31 | ||
| 2022-23 | Total | 60 | 41 | 57 | 98 | 1.63 | 25 |
| Sidorov | CHL | ||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Season | Year | League | GP | G | A | Pts | PPG | +/- | |
| D+0 | 2021-22 | WHL - Saskatoon | 58 | 23 | 12 | 35 | 0.60 | -2 | |
| D+1 | 2022-23 | WHL - Saskatoon | 53 | 40 | 36 | 76 | 1.43 | 25 | |
| D+2 | 2023-24 | WHL - Saskatoon | 66 | 50 | 38 | 88 | 1.33 | 8 |
| Massé | CHL | ||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Season | Year | League | GP | G | A | Pts | PPG | +/- | |
| D-1 | 2022-23 | QMJHL - Chicoutimi | 65 | 29 | 33 | 62 | 0.95 | -3 | |
| D+0 | 2023-24 | QMJHL - Chicoutimi | 67 | 36 | 39 | 75 | 1.12 | -4 |
If you love Sidorov, then you gotta love Pastujov just the same or more if based upon potential. Massé at 6'3 and 190 lbs is three inches taller than Pastujov and Sidorov, with the latter two also listed at 183 lbs by Elite Prospects. Massé might be dominating his peers in the CHL b/c of his size at his age. He'll need to show a bigger jump in production in his D+1 or it'll be three years in the CHL with incremental improvement, which would put him below 'jov and 'rov.
If we’re going off total production sure, we should be just as excited about those other guys as Siderov. For me personally though, I think these guys only road to the big club is becoming a top 6 sniper, I don’t see Siderov or Pastujov being very effective lower in the lineup, and I just don’t know enough about Masse to form an opinion on him yet. So if we’re looking at it as hoping they become a top 6 sniper type, I take the guy who had put up two seasons at 0.75 goals per game over a guy whose best season was 0.68.
There is no point comparing USNTDP numbers with Q or OHL numbers from prior years. Especially between different years of development and place them in a vacuum. Unless you mean to be deceiving, at least that is the perception it gives out.
Besides, those tables illustrate that Massé is clearly ahead of both. He matches or very nearly matches both Sidorov's and Pastujov's D+1 scoring while being clearly the MVP of his team and the best draft eligible prospect of his league. Not something you can say for either of the other two. Just look up past winners of Mike Bossy Trophy to give you an idea of what company Massé has.
You can say I'm biased because I like Massé better, or maybe it is that I'm biased towards Massé because he is better, and it's not close. He is not as developed, but he is better at the same stage.
Hockey Duckie
Registered User
If you look at the whole post, then you'll realize context. In the tables provided, I didn't include any stats that were not in the CHL; thus, only comparing CHL to CHL productions. Clearly, you were reading things in part and parcel than the whole. The point of adding the context of Pasta's D-1 is to show he was set on a different program heading to the NCAA. Most CHL players go through the CHL and you'll see their D-1 season in the CHL. Former Duck Max Jones did the same thing, go from US NTDP to the CHL. Sidorov came via Belarus, but his first year (D+0) in the CHL was meh. It was in Sidorov's D+1 season that put him on the map to be drafted and kept up that high scoring in his D+2 season, which was this past season. But Pasta's D+2 season took his scoring onto another level. Which is why I wonder why Pasta isn't receiving the same love as Sidorov.
As for Massé being ahead, I can't say he's ahead. His progression between his D-1 and D+0 season was incremental. I was kinda expecting more from reading the comments on him on this board. Because of his physical stature of being 3 inches taller than 'jov and 'rov, Massé should have done more damage in his D+0 season since it was his second season in the CHL, unlike Pastujov and Sidorov. Massé's D+1 season is going to be more telling. Did he score a lot due to his size than talent? As you said, "He is not as developed, but he is better at the same stage."
Because of Massé' stature (6'3 and 190 lbs), he has a chance to be used in the NHL bottom-6. He may have to alter his game if that threshold to the pros is too big a jump. Pastujov and Sidorov probably cannot thrive in a bottom-6 role in the NHL. If any of those three see the NHL, then they need to improve their skating.
On a tangent, do we have a dedicated skating coach or do we farm out skating coaches? A quick google search and I think we farmed out to Larry Barron, but he isn't listed on the FO page. I know some of our prospects have worked with great skating coach Barb Underhill, such as Pastujov for a spell when he played for Guelph.
@Hockey Duckie
If the point of discussion is to rank them as of today, making statements like Pastujov should receive as much love as Sidorov when talking about the present should be is Sidorov more praised today compared to Pastujov in 2023? Isn't Sidorov actually receiving way less praise than Pastujov at the time of his rise? After all, he was ranked #9 by us in 2023 polls. Obviously Pastujov has taken a dip because of his AHL performance but it's not totally down the drain.
The last list for reference:
forums.hfboards.com
I will add that after the drafts of each 3, which player has reached their expectation and if any, do they hold value over someone who has slightly more promise but has yet to take on the development in Massé? I don't think they really have but Sido is IMO close and frankly it seems I'm in the minority even with that. Maybe it's the unfamiliarity with Massé?
You mentioned Massé's point production, I think it's fair to acknowledge but also, it is somewhat false and I think derived from focusing on the stats and not tsking into consideration his impact and style. From an offensive stand point, he is a goal scorer. Yes, he can make some, usually connecting plays but really, he is a finisher. He is also nothing like Sidorov, who at times even this season was an issue 5 on 5 despite his fantastic game breaking ability. His issues defensively simply lie in the movement. Offensively he doesn't need skating all that much, he's not carrying the puck or eluding players often anyway.
They focused on skating in the dev camp, I'm sure someone mentioned in an interview who it was that they were working with. Maybe Cutter? IIRC Barb also was involved at times last season or maybe it was the offseason?
If the point of discussion is to rank them as of today, making statements like Pastujov should receive as much love as Sidorov when talking about the present should be is Sidorov more praised today compared to Pastujov in 2023? Isn't Sidorov actually receiving way less praise than Pastujov at the time of his rise? After all, he was ranked #9 by us in 2023 polls. Obviously Pastujov has taken a dip because of his AHL performance but it's not totally down the drain.
The last list for reference:
Prospect Info: - 2023 Ducks Prospect Rankings Honorable Mentions
Vote for your 5 honorable mentions to close out the poll. Mine are Konnor Smith, Gage Alexander, Kyle Kukkonen, Rodwin Dionicio, and Vojtech Port. As always the list will define prospects as hockeysfuture does: NHL Prospect Criteria - Hockey's Future. 2023 Ducks Prospect Rankings: 1. C - Leo...
I will add that after the drafts of each 3, which player has reached their expectation and if any, do they hold value over someone who has slightly more promise but has yet to take on the development in Massé? I don't think they really have but Sido is IMO close and frankly it seems I'm in the minority even with that. Maybe it's the unfamiliarity with Massé?
You mentioned Massé's point production, I think it's fair to acknowledge but also, it is somewhat false and I think derived from focusing on the stats and not tsking into consideration his impact and style. From an offensive stand point, he is a goal scorer. Yes, he can make some, usually connecting plays but really, he is a finisher. He is also nothing like Sidorov, who at times even this season was an issue 5 on 5 despite his fantastic game breaking ability. His issues defensively simply lie in the movement. Offensively he doesn't need skating all that much, he's not carrying the puck or eluding players often anyway.
They focused on skating in the dev camp, I'm sure someone mentioned in an interview who it was that they were working with. Maybe Cutter? IIRC Barb also was involved at times last season or maybe it was the offseason?
Hockey Duckie
Registered User
@Hockey Duckie
If the point of discussion is to rank them as of today, making statements like Pastujov should receive as much love as Sidorov when talking about the present should be is Sidorov more praised today compared to Pastujov in 2023? Isn't Sidorov actually receiving way less praise than Pastujov at the time of his rise? After all, he was ranked #9 by us in 2023 polls. Obviously Pastujov has taken a dip because of his AHL performance but it's not totally down the drain.
The last list for reference:
Prospect Info: - 2023 Ducks Prospect Rankings Honorable Mentions
Vote for your 5 honorable mentions to close out the poll. Mine are Konnor Smith, Gage Alexander, Kyle Kukkonen, Rodwin Dionicio, and Vojtech Port. As always the list will define prospects as hockeysfuture does: NHL Prospect Criteria - Hockey's Future. 2023 Ducks Prospect Rankings: 1. C - Leo...
I will add that after the drafts of each 3, which player has reached their expectation and if any, do they hold value over someone who has slightly more promise but has yet to take on the development in Massé? I don't think they really have but Sido is IMO close and frankly it seems I'm in the minority even with that. Maybe it's the unfamiliarity with Massé?
You mentioned Massé's point production, I think it's fair to acknowledge but also, it is somewhat false and I think derived from focusing on the stats and not tsking into consideration his impact and style. From an offensive stand point, he is a goal scorer. Yes, he can make some, usually connecting plays but really, he is a finisher. He is also nothing like Sidorov, who at times even this season was an issue 5 on 5 despite his fantastic game breaking ability. His issues defensively simply lie in the movement. Offensively he doesn't need skating all that much, he's not carrying the puck or eluding players often anyway.
They focused on skating in the dev camp, I'm sure someone mentioned in an interview who it was that they were working with. Maybe Cutter? IIRC Barb also was involved at times last season or maybe it was the offseason?
Actually, how we rank the prospects varies from poster to poster. Some participate in the discussion and some just only vote.
I rank what players did recently, but also what their skill set is as well as their pattern of progress. All three of 'jov, 'rov, and Massé have the generalization of being big time scorers, but fell in the draft because of their poor skating. Apparently, the 3rd round is the place to take those types of players. Massé is different from the two because he's much taller and that extra size gives him more NHL options than the other two, such as being able to find a niche in the NHL bottom-6. But because Massé's progress between the two seasons was incremental, then there should be pause for offensive projection concern. Is there another offensive gear for Massé?
Pasta' offensive trajectory is higher than Sido's offensive trajectory when comparing their OHL careers. Between their D+1 and D+2 seasons, Pasta was able to take another offensive jump in his scoring rate; whereas Sido stagnated, but is being touted because he scored 50 goals. Pasta played in the AHL and Sido played in the CHL last year. That is a big talent and competition jump from the CHL to the AHL. If they both are similar players, then Sido's projection to the AHL is probably going to be similar to Pasta's. That's why I'm curious how Pasta isn't getting the same love as Sido because they are essentially the same player, except I believe Pasta has a bit higher offensive talent.
An offensive prospect who will probably rank very low in these rankings that I am high on is Kukkonen. He had an abysmal year compared to his freshman year in the NCAA, when he scored 18 goals and tied for 30th in the NCAA. I'm hoping his transfer to a new school will revitalize that goal scoring once again, but his choice on the next school doesn't look too promising in Wisconsin. Wisconsin's highest goal scorer last year had 14 goals. I was hoping for Western Michigan being his next landing spot b/c I like the way WMU revitalized Colangelo's goal scoring.
Just how bad is Michigan Tech (Kukkonen's previous college team)? I stumbled upon this Wisconsin article:
The Pietila name has been associated with Michigan Tech: Eight family members have played for the Huskies since 2002, including four on last year's team. But Adam Pietila, a cousin to the group that played in Houghton, broke away in signing with Upper Peninsula rival Northern Michigan and now moving to Wisconsin despite interest from the Huskies. [My Note: Northern Michigan's head coach got a pro gig and that allowed Pietila to transfer to a new team, Wisconson.]
Ad
Latest posts
-
-
Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX- Latest: AuroraBorealis
