Blue Jays Discussion: 2024-25 Off-season: The free agent watch begins (and sometimes old baseball radio broadcasts)

[mikeyz]

I mean... yeah, no shit. I never said negativity wasn't justified. But it's reached the point where if you say anything positive about anything, there's an avalanche of angry posts about how shitty management is. Anger has entirely replaced rational discussion.

That's because management has been absolutely shitty and there's hardly anything to be positive about.

 

[Cloned]

Nobody cares, but here’s my two cents anyway.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say there was toxic positivity, but there was definitely a slant towards defending management. I know because I was one of those who would criticize them and receive pushback.

It’s only in recent times (the last season) where the tide has fully turned against Shatkins here.

 

[mikeyz]

Are you talking about myself when you tried saying from 2020-2023 the team had 3-4 good seasons... And to quote you "they were one of the best teams in the league" And that the team was a "Model".

They hadn't won a single playoff game.

In what world were they "One of the best teams in the league" during that time period? LMFAO.

Edit: My bad. I misread that. You were quoting Discoverer.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

You really like making up a narrative. You may have had opposing views which is kind of the point of a site. Shaner is certainly the extreme but people with positive views or that offered counter points were called rogers apologists. That dates back to the AA days when most people didn't like him either.


Purely depth that we need. We need proper arms in the minors we can go to if needed.

Dude, shut up. Who do you think you're gaslighting here? What exactly is being made up? That you and your hivemind posse jumped on anyone who was even remotely critical for years until it was impossible to ignore reality? Why don't you tell us next how inflation is imaginary and all in our heads. lol

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

They hadn't won a single playoff game.

In what world were they "One of the best teams in the league" during that time period? LMFAO.

Edit: My bad. I misread that. You were quoting Discoverer.

Yeah because that's what he said to myself, and I was questioning him where this 3-4 good years come from....

2020 they over achieved no one expected them to do that, so that's 1 good season, but couldn't win a game in the postseason. 2021 they didn't even make the postseason so that's not a good season, so far 1 out of 2 good seasons. Then 2022 they did better again decent season, and they got to the postseason, but again couldn't win a game in the postseason, so that's 2 out of 3 good seasons. Then 2023 after trading away offense and going with this defense first mentality the numbers started showing how much they were struggling offensively especially with RISP, they got into the postseason and again won 0 games, but no way would I call that season a success just because they made the postseason. They sucked offensively and when you have a guy like Buck Martinez even saying how this team can't even beat a team over .500 how are they going to have any chance in the postseason, doesn't scream a good season, so that's 2 out of 4 seasons they did decent, but no postseason success. He didn't bring up last season, but I will and that was even worse then the season before, so now that's 2 out of 5 good seasons, and the main problem now is the trend is getting worse and not better.

 

[dredeye]

Nobody cares, but here’s my two cents anyway.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say there was toxic positivity, but there was definitely a slant towards defending management. I know because I was one of those who would criticize them and receive pushback.

It’s only in recent times (the last season) where the tide has fully turned against Shatkins here.

That's the problem. It's not defending management it's understanding what the vision might have been. I for one was glad to see the party atmosphere get put out and put more emphasis on professionalism and defense. The problem is they ended up over correcting. Then when that was evident they did nothing to adjust. Now we sit here with no adjustments being made again as of yet. With every year having our young franchise players not being locked up long term and now we are a season away from losing both to free agency for nothing. All this while refusing to even make a managerial change. Montoyo was around way way too long and that is proving to be the case again with Schneider. The fact these rookie managers are all we've had under these two is concerning. There no longer appears to be a vision and nothing they've done all the way down to drafting has been positive. It's a team on the verge of bare cupboards and no franchise players. That'll turn every fanbase and we can see that now

 

[dredeye]

Dude, shut up. Who do you think you're gaslighting here? What exactly is being made up? That you and your hivemind posse jumped on anyone who was even remotely critical for years until it was impossible to ignore reality? Why don't you tell us next how inflation is imaginary and all in our heads. lol

Easy there, internet tough guy and your sad attempt at a response saying I'm gaslighting. Grow up. Read my post above this. People are allowed to have opposing views to you and when there are more on one side than the other it may appear as though you are being "ganged up on". I haven't been positive about this team for two off seasons now. Blowing that lead to the Mariners was my final straw. But if all someone can offer is Kirk is fat or your a rogers apologist for saying something positive it will be met with a harsher response. Hope that helps champ.

 

[ER89]

I do find it entertaining that posters are saying "you can't say anything negative about the management" in a thread where 95% of the posts are NEGATIVE COMPLAINTS ABOUT MANAGEMENT...

I mean i remember when I thought the Swanson for teo deal was absolute dick the wiser posters here were saying no that was amazing.

Uh huh.

Irrespective shatkins need to either f***ing trade bo and vlad or fix this team with the numerous holes they've created.

 

[Cloned]

That's the problem. It's not defending management it's understanding what the vision might have been. I for one was glad to see the party atmosphere get put out and put more emphasis on professionalism and defense. The problem is they ended up over correcting. Then when that was evident they did nothing to adjust. Now we sit here with no adjustments being made again as of yet. With every year having our young franchise players not being locked up long term and now we are a season away from losing both to free agency for nothing. All this while refusing to even make a managerial change. Montoyo was around way way too long and that is proving to be the case again with Schneider. The fact these rookie managers are all we've had under these two is concerning. There no longer appears to be a vision and nothing they've done all the way down to drafting has been positive. It's a team on the verge of bare cupboards and no franchise players. That'll turn every fanbase and we can see that now

A lot of us weren’t blindly criticizing management though. The overcorrection thing was brought up multiple times here, and has only recently been accepted widely.

 

[Puckstuff]

 

[aingefan]

Come back to the thread from earlier today to see 4 pages of new posts, and had no expectation that any more than 5% have anything to do with news.

Just arguments about arguments.
What a derailed thread.

How bout discuss: should the Jays do what the Astros are doing?
Trade their stud then backfill with free agents.

I vote yes.

Vlad for a bunch including some help now pieces, then backfill with Walker and Santander. Then do the same with Bo, whose value - depressed some after a bad ‘24 - is helped by his modest contract. Then sign a closer. Get more ifa bonus money in the two trades.

Then go hard for Sasaki.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

The signs were there a while ago, hence my argument regarding Fisher back in 2020 and then myself turning on Shatkins then. It's how they're evaluating these players they go after or aquire and hoping they turn into this player they think they will be, or hoping they can magically bring out that old player again.

Like regarding Fisher for instance, they saw him as this core type player in a way for the future when they acquired him, but after he was failing they couldn't admit they were wrong and just kept trying to keep him around, when it was clear he sucked. Cavan Biggio another great example, someone who should of been gone 2-3 seasons ago, but again kept hoping he would turn it around, but it was clear he wasn't, but they just couldn't admit they were wrong.

Mitch White another guy who should of never been around as long as he was, but again they kept hoping he would turn it around when it was clear he wasn't, they finally budged and got ride of him, but it took way too long. Vogelbach another guy who they traded for back in 2020 from the Mariners who was released 9 days later after trading for him, at least they didn't hang onto him, but hey 4 years later let's sign him and try it again... Like really...

 

[Cloned]

This is the problem when you publicly go very deep into the Soto negotiations but don’t go all the way with the highest offer.

Now you don’t have Soto and you’ve made it harder to re-sign Vlad because he knows the money is there.

 

[Puckstuff]

This is the problem when you publicly go very deep into the Soto negotiations but don’t go all the way with the highest offer.

Now you don’t have Soto and you’ve made it harder to re-sign Vlad because he knows the money is there.

It’s a tough situation.

After 2023, a lot of people wanted to give up on Vlad. He had posted his 3rd season out of 5 with an OPS below .791, and his defense was average, with a lot of dumb mental errors on the basepaths.

This could have been a great time to lock him in long-term, and we could have gotten him at a discount, but I don’t think many people—and more importantly, management—were confident in Vlad.

He then rebounds in 2024, almost all the way back to his MVP form.

There was probably a window of time between June and October that would have been the best time to sign him.

After the World Series ended, it was always good business for their party to wait for Soto to get paid.

Now here we are.

I don’t blame management for not getting it done in 2023 and we’ll never know how negotiations went this season, but getting a deal done this year between June-October was the best chance to get him under 400 m.

 

[Jack Spider]

I'm curious if you guys are interested in Montembeault ? He can win games on a saturday night at the bell center with no defense. The rivalry is at an all time low, the trade could happen. He's playing for team Canada.

 

[Forgotusername]

I'm curious if you guys are interested in Montembeault ? He can win games on a saturday night at the bell center with no defense. The rivalry is at an all time low, the trade could happen. He's playing for team Canada.

But can he hit and play left field?

 

[Jack Spider]

But can he hit and play left field?

Did you need a clown?

 

[cyris]

I'm curious if you guys are interested in Montembeault ? He can win games on a saturday night at the bell center with no defense. The rivalry is at an all time low, the trade could happen. He's playing for team Canada.

Seems like a weird question to ask on the board of a team with 2 goalies in the top 5 in the league for both save% and GAA.

Seems like a really weird question in a thread about their baseball team…..

 

[Discoverer]

.

 

[Discoverer]

I think the only way they'll be able to add multiple bats at this point will be by signing one and trading for another. They're short on high-end prospects, but they have plenty of young, almost-MLB-ready talent. Maybe they can consolidate a few of them into one solid piece.

It's too bad the A's seem to be interested in not being a complete disaster now, because I can imagine them moving Rooker anymore.

 

[Hellcat]

I do feel like the stats factors in a bit from up top, although I still feel he has the final say, but they may persuade him a bit. One example imo was this last season when they traded Kikuchi and got Loperfido, and for some reason Schneider had him batting 2nd in the lineup all of a sudden with the Jays, when history showed he batted 7,8,9 only with the Astros, never anything higher, so I was questioning where are they getting this information he's a 2nd hole type of batter. Which playoffs are you talking about? The one when he pulled Gausman? Or the one when he pulled Berrios? I still remember when Chapman had to basically teach Schneider how to coach 2 seasons and ago, questioning him why he was allowing the pitcher to pitch to Ohtani.

My honest opinion on why Schneider continued to put Springer in the lead off spot last season, is due to this stat Springer has for most homeruns as a lead off hitter currently #2 with 60 behind Ricky Henderson who had 81, and wanting to help him get as many as he can in his career. It's just the fact though he's not capable of hitting as well as he has in the past anymore, and there was no other reason imo to be having one of your worst hitters in your lineup coming to the plate the most in games, if you're actually managing to win.

It was the Berrios one.

On Springer, it could be he had no other good option, it could be that it was political (the agent who reps Springer might rep a player the Jays wanted to sign in the offseason, so the GM didn't want to burn bridges), could be they felt Springer was not far off from breaking out, could be favoritism, could be loyalty, could be a hundred other reasons.

I've coached for multiple decades, when I coached at the higher rep levels and I've never subscribed to the just leave them in there it's better for the team in the long run, you play based off performance, the hot player gets to play, the slumping player gets to sit. The game is not a place to figure your shit out, that is what practice is for. You should always practice harder than you play and you should always play hard. If a pitcher is wild, has no control, is missing spots, I dont give them the chance to work it out during the game. In Springers case, I'd have told him to go spend the next few hours under the bleachers and figure it out his swing, rinse wash repeat every day until he is ready to perform. When I coached House League, I let everyone play regardless of your skill level and used game time to teach.

 

[Hellcat]

I think the only way they'll be able to add multiple bats at this point will be by signing one and trading for another. They're short on high-end prospects, but they have plenty of young, almost-MLB-ready talent. Maybe they can consolidate a few of them into one solid piece.

It's too bad the A's seem to be interested in not being a complete disaster now, because I can imagine them moving Rooker anymore.

Trade Bo for a 3B, LF, RF bat, move Andres to SS, Wagner to 2B. Seems like the most logical move no? I feel like they are 3 to 4 quality productions bats away from a decent batting line up. 3B, DH , LF and RF. If Springer has a bounce back season, then we are 3 bats away.

I think finding 4 quality bats in the Free Agency market is a huge lift. Finding 2 decent FA bats + 1 bat in a trade is more reasonable. If Ross had of been focused on signing quality bats instead of chasing cars he would never catch, this team might have had a chance this season.

IMO it will be a tire fire of a season. Our batting lineup is obviously poor. Our SP project to be 25th in 2025 (based on Steamer projections) there is just too much to do, to dig out of the hole Ross dug. I get the sense Ross will again put a fresh coat of paint a house that just burnt down and sell it as a complete Reno job because this is his historical MO, growth from within right? Can't wait for whatever smug condescending manipulative comment Ross is going to make in the next two months, trying to sell this tire fire of a team to it's fans.

 

[Hellcat]

That would be nice, yeah.

They could get by with one, but they would need a lot to go right.

Two would give them a bit of breathing room offensively.

They definitely don't need three.

Yep A LOT .... Hopes and dreams and potential does not win World Series. The SP staff is aging quickly. Our RF is old, we have no production at RF, CF, LF, 3B, DH, SS, 2B, C outside of 1B we literally dont have a single player in our line up that we can say confidently that player X is good for this many Runs, this many HR, this many RBI's. We can project numbers that look good based on historicals but there are so many unknows, with far too many players that we either have to rely on a bounce back season or a career year to just compete. That is on both side of the ball SP, RP and position players we need bounce back and or career years out of almost every player. So many unknowns, that is not a recipe for a playoff team.

 

[Nineteen67]

To be fair they do shit, it just rarely works in the teams favour.

Shapiro has done a pretty great job, he built that world class complex in Dunedin, he renovated the Skydome, he's secured the budget to be a top 10 spending team. He built a world class analytics team. He gets a high score.

Atkins on the other hand has decimated our Farm system, to be fair Alex left it in pretty bad shape but Ross has done jack to improve the farm. The roster is a hot mess, he has embarrassed the franchise two years in a row by chasing unattainable players. Other players see this and wonder if Toronto is not good enough for Soto and Otani, why should I go there? Ros has mismanaged his relationships with Vlad and Bo, they should have been signed to an extension by now. Ross has been condescending to Jay fans, talking to us the stereotypical way an American talks to a Canadian, like we only have grades 1 through 3 and are basic morons. He has allowed mediocre play become acceptable.

Shapiros one significant failing is allowing Ross to mismanage the team for what 9 years now?

I’ll always be grateful to Shapiro for what he did in Dunedin and I should be able to enjoy spring games in Doon Din for the rest of my life. It was a little touchy at one point and there was talk they were leaving, but despite the many “progressive” in the city they were able to get done.

I agree Atkins is a terrible GM. But it doesn’t bother me because I pretty much only listen to the weekend games on the radio during summer and don’t care about playoffs.

Ohh…it’s 1st through 3rd grade

 

[shaner8989]

Said it all along.

Trade vladdy
Trade Bo

Start over. Management failed. Hire new staff and you start over with them.

This franchise is in horrible shape. You cannot convince me otherwise .

Horrendous prospect pool
Horrendous team
Horrendous salary commitment
Horrendous management