Blue Jays Discussion: 2024-25 Off-season: The free agent watch begins (and sometimes old baseball radio broadcasts)

[Discoverer]

Gimenez is a nice piece to have in your depth but he can't be part of the middle of the bat order. Bo and Vlad wont be enough. It has been not enough for two years now. Springer can't be that 3rd guy anymore he is a depth player now.

Yeah, as of now they would have four guys in the regular lineup (Kirk, Varsho, Gimenez, Clement) who I think you can reasonably expect to put up something like a 90-100 wRC+ (I would say Kirk and Gimenez have more upside than that considering they both just turned 26, but I think it's fair to expect them both to be a little below average).

Considering they all provide elite defense, there's really nothing wrong with that - a lot of good teams have worse hitters than that who don't provide that defense.

The real problems right now are Springer, LF, and DH. If you're not getting strong offensive performances out of those spots, you can't hide the elite defenders at the bottom of the lineup. Even if they add a Santander/Teo, they still need another above average bat, and I'm not confident we're going to get one.

Edit: Really, it feels like Springer is the biggest issue. If he's here, he's going to play. If he's not, you can give his playing time to some combination of Lukes/Clase/Barger/Loperfido/Roden and a cheap lefty-masher to platoon with them.

 

[shaner8989]

lol 500k after getting 765 mill... Thats like one of us chasing a quarter through a tornando. He doesnt give a shit about an mvp for an extra 500k

 

[LaP]

Yeah, as of now they would have four guys in the regular lineup (Kirk, Varsho, Gimenez, Clement) who I think you can reasonably expect to put up something like a 90-100 wRC+ (I would say Kirk and Gimenez have more upside than that considering they both just turned 26, but I think it's fair to expect them both to be a little below average).

Considering they all provide elite defense, there's really nothing wrong with that - a lot of good teams have worse hitters than that who don't provide that defense.

The real problems right now are Springer, LF, and DH. If you're not getting strong offensive performances out of those spots, you can't hide the elite defenders at the bottom of the lineup. Even if they add a Santander/Teo, they still need another above average bat, and I'm not confident we're going to get one.

The problem is not the players themselves. They are all good defensive specialists with average bat who could help many teams. If the Jays can add a 3rd dominant bat behind Bo and Vlad it's going to be fine imo but they absolutely 100% must find that 3rd bat and ideally not an over the hill plan C like the last two seasons.

 

[aingefan]

lol 500k after getting 765 mill... Thats like one of us chasing a quarter through a tornando. He doesnt give a shit about an mvp for an extra 500k

Right?
As of that contract needs incentives anyway.
Gotta like his betting on himself tho….increases to a mil for each MVP *after* that lol

 

[Eyedea]

lol 500k after getting 765 mill... Thats like one of us chasing a quarter through a tornando. He doesnt give a shit about an mvp for an extra 500k

Reg season runs for around 187 days so that’s a nice little 1.83 extra days of pay for him.

 

[Eyedea]

The contract is likely going to be steep, but he’s a legit ace and some of our pitchers are aging. If we’re serious about contending this year, particularly with how the AL East has loaded up, we need significant additions to the pitching staff and lineup.

To be fair everyone is aging, including Burnes lol.

But honestly, a high velo cutter as your main weapon is probably pretty alarming for these orgs re: the high potential risk of an arm injury. Add in the fact that it wasn’t as dominating of a pitch as previous seasons and you wonder what he’ll look like moving forward.

 

[phillipmike]

Regarding the Gimenez deal someone asked a great question:

If Gimenez was a free agent today, would you be happy if your team signed him to a 5 year deal worth $100M?​

The answer is an emphatic "no" which is telling because it doesnt even include the asset you gave up in Horwitz.

That said, i wonder if the answer eventually becomes an emphatic "yes", because a 29 year old Willy Adames got $182M over 7 years for $26M AAV.

Many forget Gimenez has been in the league for 5 years and is only 25 years old. When his deal is over he will be 30 and if he comes off a strong season, he may be in line for deal similar to Adames.

Comparing their first 5 seasons:

Adames is the better hitter. But Gimenez is overall a better player at this point in their careers. Elite defender, lefty bat and a much better base runner. the only substantive difference is Adames has more power.

Many will say that the difference is Adames is SS and Gimenez is 2B which is why Adames is worth more. However, i would argue that 2B isnt weighted as valuable to a SS which means it show just how valuable Gimenez is if almost doubles Adames WAR playing 2B to his SS.

Also, although it isnt being discussed, i think the Jays have a plan B if Bo walks or maybe it is their plan A to have Gimenez play SS and move Bo now - which makes a lot of sense. Dont forget, Gimenez is an elite 2B, and he was an elite fielding SS in the minors;

Gimenez was MLB.com's 59th best prospect in 2019;

Scouting grades: Hit: 60 | Power: 35 | Run: 55 | Arm: 60 | Field: 60 | Overall: 55

The Mets have never shied away from pushing young infielders up the organizational ladder if they felt they could handle the challenge, with players like Amed Rosario and Wilmer Flores making their big league debuts at age 21 in recent years. Gimenez, who signed in July 2015 for $1.2 million and made it to Double-A in 2018 before he turned 20, appears to be on a similar path.

Gimenez might be among the most unassuming-looking top prospects in the game given his small frame, but he has tools on both sides of the ball. He can flat-out play shortstop, and should be able to play there long-term thanks to his strong arm, excellent hands, range and plus instincts for the position. While he's not a burner, he has above-average speed, and he maximizes it both defensively and as a hitter, leading the organization in stolen bases in 2018. He has a very good approach at the plate that leads to consistent contact, and he's shown he's not afraid to draw a walk. He may never win a home run derby, but the 2018 Futures Gamer showed more extra-base thump in '18, with a bit more to come.

In another system, Gimenez would be the heir apparent at shortstop. With Rosario there in the big leagues, Gimenez got a lot of time at second base in the Arizona Fall League last fall, perhaps a sign of things to come.

He is a very good SS playing 2B where he is elite. Yesterday Tim Kurkjian said Gimenez is the best defensive player in baseball, not at 2B, in baseball. The fact that he can play SS makes things a lot more interesting in my opinion when monitoring Bo's situation and looking at his value in comparison to what Adames got.

I am still not enamored with this deal but it does have a lot of intrigue if he maintains his value, perhaps hits better later in his career like Adames did or becomes SS for the Jays. He just recently turned 26, just a few months older than Vlad. Not to mention he was the centerpiece in the Lindor trade.

 

[Dr.Funk]

Regarding the Gimenez deal someone asked a great question:

If Gimenez was a free agent today, would you be happy if your team signed him to a 5 year deal worth $100M?​

The answer is an emphatic "no" which is telling because it doesnt even include the asset you gave up in Horwitz.

That said, i wonder if the answer eventually becomes an emphatic "yes", because a 29 year old Willy Adames got $182M over 7 years for $26M AAV.

Many forget Gimenez has been in the league for 5 years and is only 25 years old. When his deal is over he will be 30 and if he comes off a strong season, he may be in line for deal similar to Adames.

Comparing their first 5 seasons:

View attachment 944100

Adames is the better hitter. But Gimenez is overall a better player at this point in their careers. Elite defender, lefty bat and a much better base runner. the only substantive difference is Adames has more power.

Many will say that the difference is Adames is SS and Gimenez is 2B which is why Adames is worth more. However, i would argue that 2B isnt weighted as valuable to a SS which means it show just how valuable Gimenez is if almost doubles Adames WAR playing 2B to his SS.

Also, although it isnt being discussed, i think the Jays have a plan B if Bo walks or maybe it is their plan A to have Gimenez play SS and move Bo now - which makes a lot of sense. Dont forget, Gimenez is an elite 2B, and he was an elite fielding SS in the minors;

Gimenez was MLB.com's 59th best prospect in 2019;



He is a very good SS playing 2B where he is elite. Yesterday Tim Kurkjian said Gimenez is the best defensive player in baseball, not at 2B, in baseball. The fact that he can play SS makes things a lot more interesting in my opinion when monitoring Bo's situation and looking at his value in comparison to what Adames got.

I am still not enamored with this deal but it does have a lot of intrigue if he maintains his value, perhaps hits better later in his career like Adames did or becomes SS for the Jays. He just recently turned 26, just a few months older than Vlad. Not to mention he was the centerpiece in the Lindor trade.

I'd love talk to Houston about a deal with Tucker and Bo as the centerpieces

 

[Discoverer]

Regarding the Gimenez deal someone asked a great question:

If Gimenez was a free agent today, would you be happy if your team signed him to a 5 year deal worth $100M?​

The answer is an emphatic "no" which is telling because it doesnt even include the asset you gave up in Horwitz.

That said, i wonder if the answer eventually becomes an emphatic "yes", because a 29 year old Willy Adames got $182M over 7 years for $26M AAV.

Many forget Gimenez has been in the league for 5 years and is only 25 years old. When his deal is over he will be 30 and if he comes off a strong season, he may be in line for deal similar to Adames.

Comparing their first 5 seasons:

View attachment 944100

Adames is the better hitter. But Gimenez is overall a better player at this point in their careers. Elite defender, lefty bat and a much better base runner. the only substantive difference is Adames has more power.

Many will say that the difference is Adames is SS and Gimenez is 2B which is why Adames is worth more. However, i would argue that 2B isnt weighted as valuable to a SS which means it show just how valuable Gimenez is if almost doubles Adames WAR playing 2B to his SS.

Also, although it isnt being discussed, i think the Jays have a plan B if Bo walks or maybe it is their plan A to have Gimenez play SS and move Bo now - which makes a lot of sense. Dont forget, Gimenez is an elite 2B, and he was an elite fielding SS in the minors;

Gimenez was MLB.com's 59th best prospect in 2019;



He is a very good SS playing 2B where he is elite. Yesterday Tim Kurkjian said Gimenez is the best defensive player in baseball, not at 2B, in baseball. The fact that he can play SS makes things a lot more interesting in my opinion when monitoring Bo's situation and looking at his value in comparison to what Adames got.

I am still not enamored with this deal but it does have a lot of intrigue if he maintains his value, perhaps hits better later in his career like Adames did or becomes SS for the Jays. He just recently turned 26, just a few months older than Vlad. Not to mention he was the centerpiece in the Lindor trade.

The comparison I was looking at was Tommy Edman: glove first infielders (though Edman is apparently moving to CF) with nearly identical career offensive numbers. Edman is more of a known commodity, with Gimenez having an even better glove and a higher ceiling and lower floor with the bat.

Edman just signed for 5/74. Gimenez getting an extra nearly $25 million over the same term is pretty significant, but Edman is also entering his age 30 season, so there's definitely some second-half decline built in, while Gimenez's deal should pretty much all be prime years.

The contract doesn't really bother me.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[phillipmike]

 

[Tony Romo]

Santa Claus it is!

 

[Eyedea]

Can’t blame him in the least, especially when there’s an unlikelihood of a team blowing all other offers off the table. If all numbers are close, Dodgers win in every other aspect.

 

[Hellcat]

Regarding the Gimenez deal someone asked a great question:

If Gimenez was a free agent today, would you be happy if your team signed him to a 5 year deal worth $100M?​

The answer is an emphatic "no" which is telling because it doesnt even include the asset you gave up in Horwitz.

That said, i wonder if the answer eventually becomes an emphatic "yes", because a 29 year old Willy Adames got $182M over 7 years for $26M AAV.

Many forget Gimenez has been in the league for 5 years and is only 25 years old. When his deal is over he will be 30 and if he comes off a strong season, he may be in line for deal similar to Adames.

Comparing their first 5 seasons:

View attachment 944100

Adames is the better hitter. But Gimenez is overall a better player at this point in their careers. Elite defender, lefty bat and a much better base runner. the only substantive difference is Adames has more power.

Many will say that the difference is Adames is SS and Gimenez is 2B which is why Adames is worth more. However, i would argue that 2B isnt weighted as valuable to a SS which means it show just how valuable Gimenez is if almost doubles Adames WAR playing 2B to his SS.

Also, although it isnt being discussed, i think the Jays have a plan B if Bo walks or maybe it is their plan A to have Gimenez play SS and move Bo now - which makes a lot of sense. Dont forget, Gimenez is an elite 2B, and he was an elite fielding SS in the minors;

Gimenez was MLB.com's 59th best prospect in 2019;



He is a very good SS playing 2B where he is elite. Yesterday Tim Kurkjian said Gimenez is the best defensive player in baseball, not at 2B, in baseball. The fact that he can play SS makes things a lot more interesting in my opinion when monitoring Bo's situation and looking at his value in comparison to what Adames got.

I am still not enamored with this deal but it does have a lot of intrigue if he maintains his value, perhaps hits better later in his career like Adames did or becomes SS for the Jays. He just recently turned 26, just a few months older than Vlad. Not to mention he was the centerpiece in the Lindor trade.

Great write up... I would disagree with you on one point, I'd pay 20 mil per for him at 2B, I'm biased because I played 2B all my life and know what a difference a good 2B can do for a team... not saying I was good but I do have a slight bias towards elite middle infielders defenders. He's not a great hitter, does not walk a lot or strikeout a lot but he does put the ball in play. That puts pressure on a pitcher if there are runners on.

I like what he brings and I like when a team is built with elite defence up the middle.

My shopping list. I think we 4 guys plus a bunch of bull pen guys:

• We need a top of the rotation guy,
• An RBI guy at 1B or 3B (Vladdy can play either side so not too concerned if we go after a 1B or 3B) - Walker would be my preference at 1B - old as dirt but good on both sides of the field.
• RBI guys at LF and RF. Santander, Profar and Teo would be my choices.

 

[Dr.Funk]

[Rosenthal] Burnes prefers to be on the west coast, however the Dodgers are out. Giants seem to be the best fit though Rosenthal is not sure if they will get to the 245+ million price tag Burnes likely gets. He also wonders if the Angels get involved

 

[hockeywiz542]

Kyle Tucker & Corbin Burnes latest, Red Sox & Yankees stay aggressive | Foul Territory

Foul Territory

Streamed live 4 hours ago

Ken Rosenthal and Alanna Rizzo discuss the latest from the Winter Meetings, including the trade market for Houston Astros outfielder Kyle Tucker and the free agent chase for Corbin Burnes.

Plus, the Boston Red Sox and New York Yankees aren’t done adding after acquiring star left-handed pitchers Garrett Crochet and Max Fried.

Ken & Alanna take your questions in a LIVE Grillin’ Ken, and crown their Dudes and Dorks of the Week.

 

[Cloned]

Shatkins plunging the Jays into their darkest timeline given some of these rumours.

If they can’t sign anyone good and improve this roster, I’d imagine both Vladdy and Bo get traded and who really wants to see Atkins handle those trades?

He’ll trade them for toolsy defensive players that make Anthony Gose look like Ted Williams.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

To be fair when did he make that statement? If he was still under contract he can't say that he would consider it.

I went back and found the video, I may of misinterpreted it, so technically no he didn't say no to a reunion, but I guess I took it as that, because when he says but after addressing it I took it as him basically saying no, normally when people say but after there's a reasoning, but I'll admit he didn't actually say no.

 

[hockeywiz542]

'I had no expectations it was going to happen': The inside story of how Juan Soto became a Met

Secret meetings, interrupted dinners and the Soto Supreme Court: How Juan Soto signed his record deal.

www.espn.com

..... His teammates and club staffers seemed to have no more insight than fans or pundits into Soto's future preferences, and Soto adroitly fueled the mystery right after that game by telling reporters he was looking forward to hearing from all 30 teams.

The following months mostly bore that out, with teams' highest-ranked officials involved. Toronto Blue Jays chairman Edward Rogers, a rarely seen presence in baseball decisions, flew to California to helm the franchise's meeting with Soto, shaking hands with Boras for the first time. John Henry, attempting to restore Boston's place in the upper echelon of teams after a half-decade of franchise dormancy, was back at the table. The World Series champion Dodgers, poised to become MLB's first repeat champion since the 1999-2000 Yankees, were never as agog as the other four finalists in the pursuit of Soto but felt good enough about their first meeting with Soto that owner Mark Walter got involved as the process accelerated.

The Yankees' Hal Steinbrenner, who must operate within the foggy fan perception of his late father, George, had to decide if he was willing to spend to infinity. And Cohen, the wealthiest of all baseball owners, who cast aside the polite distance he maintained during Aaron Judge's free agency to go all-in for Soto in the way he would pursue a Jeff Koons bunny sculpture.

As Boras would say when it was over, negotiating on behalf of a player as dynamic as Soto "was like fishing with dynamite. ... Every team kept coming and coming."

General managers and managers were involved in the conversations, of course. But this process came down to billionaires presenting offers and selling themselves, and what Boras referred to as the Soto Supreme Court -- the player and his mother and bench of nine uncles -- listening, the numbers soaring to baseball infinity and beyond. Just a year after Shohei Ohtani, widely regarded as baseball's best player, signed a deal assessed in present-day value at about $461 million, Soto surpassed that number by more than $300 million.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

Not sure if this was posted here or not yet, but some possible insight on why Gimenez was traded. Basically they feared a third straight year of sub par offense.

 

[Avilaj07]

I can't help but feel that the reason why Burnes hasn't signed yet is because the Jays currently have the best offer but he's hoping either the Giants or another team comes up on their offer to either match Toronto or come pretty close. It's pretty evident he doesn't want to come here.

 

[habamillions]

I can't help but feel that the reason why Burnes hasn't signed yet is because the Jays currently have the best offer but he's hoping either the Giants or another team comes up on their offer to either match Toronto or come pretty close. It's pretty evident he doesn't want to come here.

Thats exactly what ia happening. He is from california and wants to play close to there

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Good. Let him go to the Giants at that price and at his age and trajectory.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Puckstuff]

Thats exactly what ia happening. He is from california and wants to play close to there

Maybe we should trade for Luis Castillo who’s apparently on the block.