2024-25 James Norris Memorial Trophy finalists: Quinn Hughes, Cale Makar, Zach Werenski

[kerrabria]

Points per game is more legitimate because points per 60 goes against a player that plays 30 minutes per game especially hard minutes. If you play Makar or Werenski 30 minutes and all of OT every game, naturally their points/60 will suffer. But of course you use it to fit your narratove that Hughes is somehow inferior than the other 2 which is biased imo.

It is not up for debate that Hughes gets the easiest minutes of the three.
And yes, the stat does punish players who play lots of minutes but don't necessarily score during them. That's whole point of the stat. It controls for players like Hughes who play lots of minutes, gets favorable deployment, and shows how efficient/effective/offensively dominant the player is relative to peers.

I'm no longer interested in this conversation. But I do look forward to his upcoming turn in the barrel when Vancouver fans/media pivot from hilariously overrated him to demonizing him for made-up reasons.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The voters vote on their top 5 candidates, to no-ones surprise, these calculated out to be the top 3.

 

[edevils]

Make we up when Makar stops playing pedestrian when he isn’t on the ice with Mackinnon

He looked pedestrian in the game last.

 

[Regal]

Zach Werenski had 1.69 points/60
Rasmus Dahlin had 1.68 points/60
Quinn Hughes had 1.54 points/60

Pretty sure that those two had less forward help than Hughes. And they were actually asked to play defense.

How? Columbus and Buffalo were top 10 scoring teams this year. Canucks were 23rd. Sabres had 5 forwards score more than the top Canuck forward , including a guy who had 6 fewer goals than the top Canuck forward had points. Columbus had 4 forwards score more than the top Canucks forward.

If we look just at 5v5, the Jacket were 1st in the league in goals and Buffalo was 4th. Canucks were 24th. In 5v5 G/60, Columbus was 1st and Buffalo 3rd. Canucks were, again, 24th.

With Hughes on the ice, the Canucks scored 2.86 G/60 5v5. Without him, they scored 1.97 G/60. They were the level of the 3rd best team in the league with Hughes on the ice and would be tied with the Preds this year for worst in the league without him.

 

[edevils]

You're just not making an honest argument.
We could go around in circles about the quality/consistency of forward help.
But how is points/game a more legitimate metric than points/60? If anything, it's better because it only looks at 5v5 and excludes physically easy, stat-inflating PP minutes.

PP points count just as much as ES points. Why would you favor a metric that punishes players for being good on the PP?

If a player scores most of his points on the PP, like Laine, that is a redflag of course, but PPs are part of the game. Removing PP pts for the sake of argument seems dubious at best.

 

[kerrabria]

PP points count just as much as ES points. Why would you favor a metric that punishes players for being good on the PP?

If a player scores most of his points on the PP, like Laine, that is a redflag of course, but PPs are part of the game. Removing PP pts for the sake of argument seems dubious at best.

PP points are easier to score than ES points. A player's PP production is also way more volatile season-to-season than ES production usually is.
ES production is a better indicator of a player's overall play and ability to produce offense when play is happening in all three zones--not just the o-zone.

Basically, if you're comparing players of similar acumen and with similar stats, the PP points are a great first place to start peeling back layers.

Kind of like when comparing goalies, it's helpful to have the context of how many SOG their team gives up per game.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

We all know Hughes is the top dman

lol

Yaaaa Makar definately has that title as best dman. I’m not even a Avs fan and it’s quite easy to tell

 

[614 CBJ]

Werenski went cold for about 15 games after the 4 Nations...as did the entire CBJ team

did all the minutes catch up with him? Don't know, but those games likely cost him winning

 

[thebeernerd]

At one point there were analytics saying that Quinn was better than Makar and it wasn’t really close, but that was around the midway mark of the season and before he got his wrist injury.

Personally, I think that there should also be an award for the best defensive defenseman.

 

[TheBeard]

NGL, these award announcements have come at pretty bad times for the players. Connor, Kuemper, Vasi and Makar.

 

[eviohh26]

Pure defense Makar was on ice for 5 goals against last night .
30 Goals seals it for him. He ows Mack a beer.

 

[Aashir]

Not like it would've made a difference.

do you think it's makar's regardless?

otherwise if hughes played the whole season he'd probably have had a better season than werenski

Hughes had 26 more points than his next teammate (37 point projection)
Werenski had 8 more points than his next teammate (-4 points vs Monohan or 6 points projection vs marchenko)

Hughes had better metrics, better relative metrics, but didn't PK. Columbus probably makes the playoffs with a healthy hughes, idk if vancouver improves much.

Everything here is moot though if you have makar as the clear favourite either way

 

[Kojo]

Most years as a Norris trophy finalist, all-time

View attachment 1025602

Cale Makar is now one of 16 defensemen who's been a Norris trophy finalist at least five times. (All of his are consecutive).

Some notable names that didn't do this - Chris Pronger, Scott Stevens, Brian Leetch, Borje Salming, Brian Leetch, Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty, Scott Niedermayer

Brian Leetch didn't make the list twice? That's an impressive list of players who didn't get nominated 5 times.

 

[avsfan9]

Not to mention these posters barely watch Hughes play and criticize his defense when most of the year he was great defensively even better than Makar as there was many posts on hfboard alluding to it. Now all of a sudden Hughes sucks defensively because Makar will win the Norris all because Hughes was injured and missed 15 games.

I’m sure they will put that next to Makars name when he wins the Norris. “ only won because Hughes missed 15 games”

 

[Kojo]

Werenski is more impressive, but Makar will win because more points.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Werenski should win but MacKinnon merchant will win it.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

lol

Yaaaa Makar definately has that title as best dman. I’m not even a Avs fan and it’s quite easy to tell

Why because 30 goals?

Makar is a finisher . Hughes is a creator

 

[Kojo]

do you think it's makar's regardless?

otherwise if hughes played the whole season he'd probably have had a better season than werenski

Hughes had 26 more points than his next teammate (37 point projection)
Werenski had 8 more points than his next teammate (-4 points vs Monohan or 6 points projection vs marchenko)

Hughes had better metrics, better relative metrics, but didn't PK. Columbus probably makes the playoffs with a healthy hughes, idk if vancouver improves much.

Everything here is moot though if you have makar as the clear favourite either way

Playing less games is a big factor, if you don't play you don't accumulate points toward the Norris Trophy. Not playing means you don't contribute. Quinn Hughes is a very good player but he's not as good as Makar or Werenski this year.

 

[avsfan9]

Why because 30 goals?

Makar is a finisher . Hughes is a creator

Creator of his team becoming a hot steaming pile of dog shit after they gave him the c

 

[kcunac]

Colorado scored 6th most goals this year. Columbus was 8th. Vancouver was 23rd.

Werenski led his team in scoring by 12 points and missed 1 game. Makar was 2nd in team scoring, trailing by 24 pts and missing 2 games. Hughes led his team in scoring by 26 pts while missing 14 games.

Canucks highest scoring forward had 50 pts. Columbus’ had 74 and Avs had 116.

 

[Jared Dunn]

It should be Werenski, but it won't.

I think Makar had a better season as a d-man but I also think Werenski should be top 5 in Hart voting. In fact I would say Makar is probably the only of these 3 finalists who shouldn't end up in the top 10 in Hart voting

 

[Run the Gauntlet]

Makar wins it this year, 30 goals is unique.
Norris voting should always be taken with a big grain of salt it is done on emotion not based on facts.
Also that list above should not be taken seriously.
For example Bill Gadsby in the 1964-1965 season played 61 games had 0 goals 12 assists, but somehow he was a Norris finalist, what defenseman in the modern NHL would be taken seriously with numbers like that?

 

[Jared Dunn]

Werenski had a great year and moved up the ranks of the league’s top D. Makar will win the vote though.
I wonder who were 4 -10? Morrissy? Fox? Sanderson? Chychrun?

I would hope not Fox, terrible season. I bet Slavin got a bit of love after his coming out party at 4 Nations, and Hedman will be there until he dies. Minimum 5 Montreal writers voted Hutson I'm sure lol

 

[Ace of Hades]

Would've preferred either Hughes or Werenski winning anyway.

Makar should thank MacKinnon for the trophy.

 

[wetcoast]

Makar wins it.

I expect so but it would have been Hughes if not for the injury IMO.

the guy literally carried the Canucks on his back.

Zach had a great year as well will be first or second.