2024-25 James Norris Memorial Trophy finalists: Quinn Hughes, Cale Makar, Zach Werenski

[jackjohnson]

As those charts show Quinn is easily the best defensively of the three candidates. I’d argue he’s been the best offensively as well, as he lead his team by 26 points and drives the bus for the offence in Vancouver. He’d have more points if he played on a better offensive team, like the Avs. Given his importance to our offence, it would be foolish to play Q on the PK. Keep his minutes, which are some of the highest in the league, to EV and PP where he can help the team the most.

If he had to play PK, he would have to play the whole damn game. The fact that he played 30 minutes every night without doing PK just shows how dominant he is.

 

[kerrabria]

It should be Werenski, but it won't.

The award simply asks which defenseman had the most outstanding season. Makar had a more outstanding season than Werenski.

Although I'm sympathetic to this argument because Makar's season was obviously helped by having a 1D partner. Still, this is the Lindsay for defensemen, not the Hart. It should go to Makar.

 

[jackjohnson]

On pure defense?! 1000000% and its not even close.

What the heck is pure defense? Stop trolling, Hughes is a defenseman and plays defense.

 

[jackjohnson]

Where is Quinn, Werenski, Dahlin, etc? Curious why Tanev was chosen.

Because he plays "pure defense"...none of that artificial defense crap. 100% pure

 

[landy]

What the heck is pure defense? Stop trolling, Hughes is a defenseman and plays defense.

lol right...There are threads for days on this in much more detail, but go look up his PK time and compare to the top 50 defenseman in TOI. Quinn gets a full 2 min more per game than his peers of ES or PP time. That equates to 5-6 full games of ES/PP time while his peers are killing penalties.

 

[Zanon]

Hughes was narrowly ahead as the front-runner before he got injured. Can’t say for certain he would win if he stayed healthy but he was playing even better than last season when he won the Norris.

 

[jackjohnson]

Gotta be Makar imo.

He can hit, he can play defence and his offense is undeniable.

Not a knock on Hughes or Werenski. Makar will make winning Norris trophies tough over his career.

Be honest, we all know Makar will win by default. If you go based on points per game, Hughes is number 1 in that or pretry close to Makar. Makar will win simply because Hughes missed 15 games.

 

[jackjohnson]

Hughes was narrowly ahead as the front-runner before he got injured. Can’t say for certain he would win if he stayed healthy but he was playing even better than last season when he won the Norris.

He played handicap both literally and figuratively in terms of how he had an obvious injury and playing with a half injured roster missing Boeser, Miller and Pettersson at one point.

 

[kerrabria]

Both Makar and Werenski had more impressive primary points, 5v5 production, and Scoring/60 stats. They're also goal scorers.

When you factor in the usage and overall defensive impact, I genuinely don't understand how any honest broker could put Hughes higher than third (at best).

 

[jackjohnson]

lol right...There are threads for days on this in much more detail, but go look up his PK time and compare to the top 50 defenseman in TOI. Quinn gets a full 2 min more per game than his peers of ES or PP time. That equates to 5-6 full games of ES/PP time while his peers are killing penalties.

He doesnt play PK because he plays 30 minutes already. Why dont you get that?? His offensive skills was needed more than ever because Canucks were missing 2 top centers. Let me know when Makar can play the whole 5 minutes of OT and still PK in the same game.

 

[jackjohnson]

Both Makar and Werenski had more impressive primary points, 5v5 production, and Scoring/60 stats. They're also goal scorers.

When you factor in the usage and overall defensive impact, I genuinely don't understand how any honest broker could put Hughes higher than third (at best).

Hughes points per game 1.12, Makar is 1.15. Hughes was 2nd in points per game. He did this without any top 2 centers or top wingers. Let me know how Werenski and Makar do when Blueger plays top center.

 

[ScottishCanuck]

Offence from the D is a major factor in the NHL. This bizarrely seems to surprise people every year. Being a great offensive D-man doesn’t detract from your value at that position.

Hughes was unreal this year and carried this team. Led the team in points by a significant margin. Insane possession stats. Just on a different level. It’s a shame he missed time.

Makar is great. I’d give it to Werenski purely because I think he was more valuable to the Jackets, but either are worthy winners.

 

[ScottishCanuck]

lol right...There are threads for days on this in much more detail, but go look up his PK time and compare to the top 50 defenseman in TOI. Quinn gets a full 2 min more per game than his peers of ES or PP time. That equates to 5-6 full games of ES/PP time while his peers are killing penalties.

How dare the Canucks utilise him where he’s most effective?..

It’s not that Hughes cannot kill penalties. It’s that it’s a waste of his talent and energy that would be better spent dominating possession. We have other players who are more than capable of effectively killing penalties in his place.

 

[kerrabria]

Hughes points per game 1.12, Makar is 1.15. Hughes was 2nd in points per game. He did this without any top 2 centers or top wingers. Let me know how Werenski and Makar do when Blueger plays top center.

Zach Werenski had 1.69 points/60
Rasmus Dahlin had 1.68 points/60
Quinn Hughes had 1.54 points/60

Pretty sure that those two had less forward help than Hughes. And they were actually asked to play defense.

 

[landy]

How dare the Canucks utilise him where he’s most effective?..

It’s not that Hughes cannot kill penalties. It’s that it’s a waste of his talent and energy that would be better spent dominating possession. We have other players who are more than capable of effectively killing penalties in his place.

100% agree, but thats where I give credit to dmen who put up similar points, but also PK.

 

[jackjohnson]

Zach Werenski had 1.69 points/60
Rasmus Dahlin had 1.68 points/60
Quinn Hughes had 1.54 points/60

Pretty sure that those two had less forward help than Hughes. And they were actually asked to play defense.

Less forward help than Hughes? am sure Alex tuch and Peterka are worst than Blueger and Suter who were our top line players most season. In fact Petersson had 45 points, thats the same as a 3rd line player in Buffalo or Columbus while playing 1st line center on the Canucks. Also points per game is more relevants. Hughes played 30 minutes every game which would take a toll on any players in this league.

 

[jackjohnson]

100% agree, but thats where I give credit to dmen who put up similar points, but also PK.

Sorry but thats where i disagree. Hughes plays 30 minutes which is the max any player should play and already too much. Canucks also dont have any offensive dman aside from Hughes. Maybe 2 with Hronek but Hronek is not as good offensively. The Avs have Girard, Towes and other dmen that can chip in offensively.

 

[kerrabria]

How dare the Canucks utilise him where he’s most effective?..

It’s not that Hughes cannot kill penalties. It’s that it’s a waste of his talent and energy that would be better spent dominating possession. We have other players who are more than capable of effectively killing penalties in his place.

This argument just doesn't hold up when you look at other offensive defensemen around the league.

Colorado has one of the best bluelines in the league, but Makar still kills penalties.
Columbus' offense was totally dependent on Werenski, but Werenski was still used as a PKer.
Tampa struggled with offense from the backend, had lots of defensive d-men, yet Hedman still killed penalties.
Ottawa utilized Sanderson as both their number one PPQB and their number one PKer. Same for Washington/Carlson.

Also noteworthy:

Season​	Hughes PK TOI​	Canucks' PK Ranking​
2024-25	0:10	3rd
2023-24	0:35	17th
2022-23	1:19	32nd

 

[jackjohnson]

How dare the Canucks utilise him where he’s most effective?..

It’s not that Hughes cannot kill penalties. It’s that it’s a waste of his talent and energy that would be better spent dominating possession. We have other players who are more than capable of effectively killing penalties in his place.

He wants Hughes to play every PK and have Myers on PP the coach will get fired for that kind of decision making.

 

[Ghost of Murph]

Makar should win obviously. Awesome season. Props to Werenski for being a finalist since he seems to fly under the radar more than he should. All 3 finalists absolute gems. Makar continues to be the best d-man of his era.

 

[Phrasing]

This argument just doesn't hold up when you look at other offensive defensemen around the league.

Colorado has one of the best bluelines in the league, but Makar still kills penalties.
Columbus' offense was totally dependent on Werenski, but Werenski was still used as a PKer.
Tampa struggled with offense from the backend, had lots of defensive d-men, yet Hedman still killed penalties.
Ottawa utilized Sanderson as both their number one PPQB and their number one PKer. Same for Washington/Carlson.

Also noteworthy:

Season​	Hughes PK TOI​	Canucks' PK Ranking​
2024-25	0:10	3rd
2023-24	0:35	17th
2022-23	1:19	32nd

Makar was impressive this year but had been bad on the PK overall. It’s not the flex you think it is. PK ability is a small part of evaluating a player, and you can win the award without PKing if you’re so dominant in other areas as the past has suggested. If Makar is winning, it’s not because he PKs, it’s because he scored 30 goals and was great offensively.

 

[jackjohnson]

This argument just doesn't hold up when you look at other offensive defensemen around the league.

Colorado has one of the best bluelines in the league, but Makar still kills penalties.
Columbus' offense was totally dependent on Werenski, but Werenski was still used as a PKer.
Tampa struggled with offense from the backend, had lots of defensive d-men, yet Hedman still killed penalties.
Ottawa utilized Sanderson as both their number one PPQB and their number one PKer. Same for Washington/Carlson.

Also noteworthy:

Season​	Hughes PK TOI​	Canucks' PK Ranking​
2024-25	0:10	3rd
2023-24	0:35	17th
2022-23	1:19	32nd

Thats just such a terrible analysis. You are basically picking up stats out of context where the team had different PK coach and different system and different players on the PK. You cant just compare the years and say Hughes is bad on PK because of this stat. Just really bad analysis.

Also Canucks manage Hughes differently because he is a play driver and the only offense Canucks have. Werenski and Makar play on teams with lots of offensive options. Its not a one size fits all here. You have to play players in a way that give the team the most success. Why have Hughes play PK when Canucks have a dozen PKers in Blueger, Suter, Sherwood, Forbort, Deharnais, Juulsen, Myers etc. So if you were the coach you would make Hughes play PK while have Juulsen on PP?? This logic is wild

 

[kerrabria]

Less forward help than Hughes? am sure Alex tuch and Peterka are worst than Blueger and Suter who were our top line players most season. In fact Petersson had 45 points, thats the same as a 3rd line player in Buffalo or Columbus while playing 1st line center on the Canucks. Also points per game is more relevants. Hughes played 30 minutes every game which would take a toll on any players in this league.

You're just not making an honest argument.
We could go around in circles about the quality/consistency of forward help.
But how is points/game a more legitimate metric than points/60? If anything, it's better because it only looks at 5v5 and excludes physically easy, stat-inflating PP minutes.

 

[jackjohnson]

Makar was impressive this year but had been bad on the PK overall. It’s not the flex you think it is. PK ability is a small part of evaluating a player, and you can win the award without PKing if you’re so dominant in other areas as the past has suggested. If Makar is winning, it’s not because he PKs, it’s because he scored 30 goals and was great offensively.

Not to mention these posters barely watch Hughes play and criticize his defense when most of the year he was great defensively even better than Makar as there was many posts on hfboard alluding to it. Now all of a sudden Hughes sucks defensively because Makar will win the Norris all because Hughes was injured and missed 15 games.

 

[jackjohnson]

You're just not making an honest argument.
We could go around in circles about the quality/consistency of forward help.
But how is points/game a more legitimate metric than points/60? If anything, it's better because it only looks at 5v5 and excludes physically easy, stat-inflating PP minutes.

Points per game is more legitimate because points per 60 goes against a player that plays 30 minutes per game especially hard minutes. If you play Makar or Werenski 30 minutes and all of OT every game, naturally their points/60 will suffer. But of course you use it to fit your narratove that Hughes is somehow inferior than the other 2 which is biased imo.