Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

GRANdSharks

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Mar 14, 2018
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As much as I'm down for giving smith time to work out and develop, with 4 points in his last 2 I feel this is a good opportunity to give him some leash and build some confidence. Definitely not the biggest deal but I think it could be good for him personally.
 

mogambomoroo

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Oct 12, 2020
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I'm trying to project (for fun) what salaries would this core want when their ELC/bridge contracts end.

I would go for the 8 year route on core pieces. It helps building a team around them and they get guaranteed money for a long time. Get their prime years locked in.

Core:
Celebrini 8x12 mil (to be honest this would probably be a clear discount, but could see him thinking more about winning rather than cashing in)

Smith 8x9 mil (I would projected him around this area, if he slowly turns into a offensive threat a la Eklund path)

Eklund 8x7.2 mil (7.2 = 72) or maybe 8x8 if he doesn't believe in the player number thingy haha, this would be a discount but could see him as another winning team believer rather than cashing in.

Askarov 5x6.5mil or 8x8mil (Bridge if there is hesitation about being elite, but 8x8 if he shows the signs of taking games over on his own a la Elite)

Depth:
Zetterlund 6 x 4.5 or 5 mil (being that swiss army knife on that RW spot, could be anywhere between 1-3RW)

Unknown potential (Core, depth or bust):
Dickinson (most likely core, would probably be a bridge candidate)
Cagnoni (most likely depth, but could be a underrated contributer a la Girard, bridge candidate)
Musty (most core or bust type of player of the bunch, hard to see him as a real depth contributer, anything between never getting contract to a 8 years big money)
Chernyshov (injuries block the realistic view, but could see him good depth player if things go well, bridge candidate)
 
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OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
16,894
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Some Sharks fans wholeheartedly loving DW is honestly one of the of the stranger things in sports imo. There are a lot of GMs with much bigger successes, and ones that did a lot less damage, that are absolutely despised by their former fanbases.

The totality is a guy that even with some lucky breaks was unable to ever build a team that won anything due to his own failures

And a guy who left the team in an absolute mess while he was trying to set up his loser son to take over for him.
Well said. Some people hold him to the standard of a GM in a professional organization worth billions. Others apparently think he's an intern...
 

Barrie22

Shark fan in hiding
Aug 11, 2009
25,731
7,325
ontario
I'm trying to project (for fun) what salaries would this core want when their ELC/bridge contracts end.

I would go for the 8 year route on core pieces. It helps building a team around them and they get guaranteed money for a long time. Get their prime years locked in.

Core:
Celebrini 8x12 mil (to be honest this would probably be a clear discount, but could see him thinking more about winning rather than cashing in)

Smith 8x9 mil (I would projected him around this area, if he slowly turns into a offensive threat a la Eklund path)

Eklund 8x7.2 mil (7.2 = 72) or maybe 8x8 if he doesn't believe in the player number thingy haha, this would be a discount but could see him as another winning team believer rather than cashing in.

Askarov 5x6.5mil or 8x8mil (Bridge if there is hesitation about being elite, but 8x8 if he shows the signs of taking games over on his own a la Elite)

Depth:
Zetterlund 6 x 4.5 or 5 mil (being that swiss army knife on that RW spot, could be anywhere between 1-3RW)

Unknown potential (Core, depth or bust):
Dickinson (most likely core, would probably be a bridge candidate)
Cagnoni (most likely depth, but could be a underrated contributer a la Girard, bridge candidate)
Musty (most core or bust type of player of the bunch, hard to see him as a real depth contributer, anything between never getting contract to a 8 years big money)
Chernyshov (injuries block the realistic view, but could see him good depth player if things go well, bridge candidate)
12 million might be a little high for Celebrini, that brings him to prime mackinnon salary and just below perennial 100+ point draisaitl
 

Barrie22

Shark fan in hiding
Aug 11, 2009
25,731
7,325
ontario
The cap is going to be, what, 20% higher compared to when those players signed his deal.
Drais starts next year and mack was only done the year before this one.

I know Celebrini will be good, but i don't see his 1st contract being top 10 paid in the league good by the end of his ELC. I could see 10 mil but not 12 for Celebrini in 3 years.
 

DG93

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Jun 29, 2010
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San Jose
Drais starts next year and mack was only done the year before this one.

I know Celebrini will be good, but i don't see his 1st contract being top 10 paid in the league good by the end of his ELC. I could see 10 mil but not 12 for Celebrini in 3 years.
I agree. I think 9M for Smith is pretty steep too unless he explodes next year, I think we can get him for 8M on his first deal. 12M combined for Eklund + Zetterlund seems reasonable. Askarov for 8M seems reasonable if he looks as good next year as expected. Getting Celebrini, Smith, Askarov, Eklund, and Zetterlund all signed long-term for 37-38M combined would be awesome.
 

Hodge

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Apr 27, 2021
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Some Sharks fans wholeheartedly loving DW is honestly one of the of the stranger things in sports imo. There are a lot of GMs with much bigger successes, and ones that did a lot less damage, that are absolutely despised by their former fanbases.

The totality is a guy that even with some lucky breaks was unable to ever build a team that won anything due to his own failures

And a guy who left the team in an absolute mess while he was trying to set up his loser son to take over for him.
It absolutely blows my mind that any self respecting Sharks fan can have a different take on DW than this one. I hope his stupid banner gets torn down and burned someday.
 

DG93

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
4,822
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San Jose
It absolutely blows my mind that any self respecting Sharks fan can have a different take on DW than this one. I hope his stupid banner gets torn down and burned someday.
I think for a lot of fans, the acquisition of Joe Thornton (and to a lesser extent Boyle and Burns) outweighs all the deficiencies (terrible drafting record, bad coaching hires, inability to add depth around the core).
 
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Jargon

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Apr 12, 2011
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I think most fans don’t have such vitriol toward DW because he put together some of the most memorable Sharks teams in the history of the organization. We love Joe, we love Pavs, we loved watching the team for that decade and a half even though they didn’t win. Of course he made a ton of mistakes, of course the end of it sucked, but he built a culture here with the players he brought in and that culture is continuing with Joe and Marleau (and I suspect eventually Pavs) and all the other ex-Sharks who are helping this new generation take over.

You can respect and appreciate someone even in their failure, there are few leaders who are beyond reproach. Humans fail, we can still like them if they do.

Most people don’t agree with these angry DW tirades simply because A. He helped create a lot of incredibly special memories for us and B. It feels like investing that much anger into hating DW is misplaced and a waste of time.

Doug Wilson did some amazing things for the Sharks. He also did some very dumb things. It’s okay for both to be true and to move on.
 

Lebanezer

I'unno? Coast Guard?
Jul 24, 2006
15,726
12,642
San Jose
It absolutely blows my mind that any self respecting Sharks fan can have a different take on DW than this one. I hope his stupid banner gets torn down and burned someday.
It’s impressive how much energy you are willing to devote to the Wilson family. This level of hatred actually requires effort. Why do you let them live rent free in your mind? It’s not worth it.
 

landshark

They'll paint the donkey teal if you pay.
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Mar 15, 2003
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DW was ok, just ok. There's zero reason he should have a banner hanging in the rafters at the tank. ZERO.

But during his tenure it was always such a let down in the ploffs every. f***ing. year.

These recent, low expectations years have been way less damaging to my psyche than the I-know-we're-gonna-make-the-ploffs-and-chok years.

Rebuild/rebirth of the franchise is pretty entertaining. And Macklin is just ridiculously entertaining, the future is bright. I feel like it's been a bit of a vacation for myself as a Shark fan, being able to watch and enjoy the youth develop with little expectations for winning every night. It's kinda fun again, but in a different sort of way. I doubt that was ever going to happen with DW at the helm. He'd just ship out Macklin and a 1st for Erik Karlsson and Brad Lukowich... to try to keep the dream alive. The fact we were overdue for a rebuild during the last couple years or so of his tenure and he just ran the Sharks futures into the ground further... that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
 

Hodge

Registered User
Apr 27, 2021
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It’s impressive how much energy you are willing to devote to the Wilson family. This level of hatred actually requires effort. Why do you let them live rent free in your mind? It’s not worth it.
The Wilson family? I’m not going after his f***ing wife or grandkids. He’s the one who brought his dipshit unqualified son in to run the Sharks into the ground.
 

Shark in Hockeytown

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Jul 18, 2021
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Wilson built his teams to make the playoffs and win one series. When they made the conference final, they were overmatched. His go-to move was trading for star players whose were likely to be moved because of approaching UFA status or other reasons. For every one of those trades people remember as great (Thornton, Burns), another one failed (Heatley, Campbell, Guerin). For the bottom six, he valued guys with rings mindlessly. He traded Bonino before he reached the show for Moen and Huskins. (Aside, why was Huskins at the Thornton jersey retirement?). But Wilson did give Sharks fans the unalloyed joy of watching the last games of Claude Lemieux's career.
 
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tiburon12

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Jul 18, 2009
5,124
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On 32 Thoughts they mention that the pens are targeting young players who are getting squeezed. I wonder if Bordeleau or Gushchin are targets given the DW connecrion.
 
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weastern bias

worst team in the league
Feb 3, 2012
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Who cares about Doug Wilson?

The past is the past, I'm more concerned with the future, which looks quite bright

Also, DWJr. DID draft Eklund, so thanks DW2

On 32 Thoughts they mention that the pens are targeting young players who are getting squeezed. I wonder if Bordeleau or Gushchin are targets given the DW connecrion.
Bordeleau is SUCH a Dubas player, makes a ton of sense
 

mogambomoroo

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Oct 12, 2020
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Drais starts next year and mack was only done the year before this one.

I know Celebrini will be good, but i don't see his 1st contract being top 10 paid in the league good by the end of his ELC. I could see 10 mil but not 12 for Celebrini in 3 years.
10 mil looks a lot better long term, could be the ultimate bargain. Helps the team a lot with other contracts. Also would be a Celebrini move to a discount to get a winning team around him.
 

matt trick

Registered User
Jun 12, 2007
10,141
2,120
Man, there’s a lot to discuss from the past two pages…

Wilson wins:
* Thornton, Burns, Boyle trades were simply incredible.
*Toskala and Kipper delivering Vlasic abd Couture
* Decades of performance from Vlasic, Braun, Clowe, and Pavelski. A strong middle of the team from a 2nd/4th/4th/7th. They also stayed for a long while (too long in one case).
* Selling high on Wishart, Setoguchi, Doug Murray, and Brad Stuart, somehow producing 4 2nds and 2/3rds of 2 top pairing dmen
*The two bests centers in Hertl’s draft year (him and Tierney)
*DW Jr. ‘s only win on finding desperately needed depth from underrated European FAs (Donskoi primarily, but also Simek, Karlsson, and Sorensen)- along with Eklund, and maybe Norris/Ferraro, Jrs only win.
*Blake, Martin, Ward, Malhotra, Nichol, and Mayers as UFAs. Both Ward and Martin’s last years were awful, but they were good and needed pieces for most of their contract.
*Braun/vlasic/Couture/Hertl/Pavs/Burns/Jumbo/Marleau spent a lot of time underpaid.
*Heatly trade wasn’t great, but it was okay.
*Also how’d we get Dillon? He was a great shark, can’t even remember acquisition cost…
*Hialmmarsson offer sheet. Shook loose Niemi who was only average, but at $2M he was worth it, and it hurt a rival (even though they won with Crawford anyway).

Consistent frustrations:
*Questionable overpaying at the deadline for mediocre pieces (Rivet, Guerin, Moen/Huskins, Campbell, Wallin; to a lesser degree Polak- not sure we get past blues without him).
*Incessant waste of picks to trade up for guys who didn’t work out. This was compounded by weird trades for depth pieces we didn’t need.
*Wasted a non-insignificant amount of cap space on shit players that had to be hits because our bottom 5-67 pieces needed to be league minimum- Melker, Wallin, etc.

Three other errors that sank the team:
*Jones contract- it was signed a year early, but his subsequent year would have only made it worse. Combined with goalie equipment changes this deal sunk the sharks. He was never that good, but giving up a late first for him on his first sharks contract was fine.
*Vlasic’s contract- he finally got paid what he was worth, unfortunately he hasn’t had more than one year of being worth it since.
*Giving up a conditional 1st for Kane when it was rumored no one else was involved. It should have been two seconds or we should have passed.

Without Kane, Vlasic, and Jones you probably could have refreshed the team, but $20M on those three was rough.

At the time, I loved the Karlsson deal (less so the signing, but I was fine with it. It ended in catastrophe, but it was worth it to give the core one more shot.

TLDR: Sharks were a contender for decades because Wilson made a few really good moves, the sharks somehow got years and years of excellence from like seven home run draft picks, and Thornton and Marleau inspired a culture of stars taking less than market. Unfortunately so many small moves were off.

Imagine if Grier and Morehouse produce the equivalent of Vlasic, Clowe, Braun, and Pavelski at some point in their first decade with non-1sts? Wouldn’t even need big trades.

All that being said, just want to say, I’m really, really glad Grier is steering the ship.
 

JoeThorntonsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,523
25,845
Fremont, CA
The extremist takes on both sides of the DW debate are a bit much for me. He was clearly a decent GM who had a budget team in the mix every year for a decade and a half. He also put his own f***ing son in charge of our scouting department and dug us into a significantly deeper hole than we needed to be in after the 2019-2020 season.

Some praise and some criticism is warranted, but if I had to take a side, I’d say it’s valid to say pretty much whatever you want about the guy on the principle of him putting his kid in charge of our scouting department and grooming him to be his replacement. I don’t even think DWJr did an especially bad job, but the sheer absurdity of that decision is inexcusable and justifies some pretty strong opinions. Personally, I understand we have blind spots for our families and I’m willing to let it go, but I can’t blame somebody for being pissed off about that.
 

weastern bias

worst team in the league
Feb 3, 2012
11,791
8,917
SJ
Line combos this morning look good to me.


Also, LOL at the idea that a bottom-6 of:

Kostin-Sturm-Cardwell
G. Smith-Dellandrea-Grundstrom

would have elevated one of the Thornton teams to a championship

Hell, throw Wennberg, Goodrow and Kunin in there over any three other players, it doesn't make a difference, that bottom-6 is simply bad
 

OverTheLine

Registered User
May 11, 2011
178
192
Kinda funny a parenthetical throwaway remark triggered all this discussion, but I genuinely forgot how heated people get about the DW stuff. Honestly, happy to take back what I meant to be a measured, middle of road take on DW if it means this thread can get back to being about this years team lmao
 
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weastern bias

worst team in the league
Feb 3, 2012
11,791
8,917
SJ
Kinda funny a parenthetical throwaway remark triggered all this discussion, but I genuinely forgot how heated people get about the DW stuff. Honestly, happy to take back what I meant to be a measured, middle of road take on DW if it means this thread can get back to being about this years team lmao
Too late

tenor.gif
 

matt trick

Registered User
Jun 12, 2007
10,141
2,120
Kinda funny a parenthetical throwaway remark triggered all this discussion, but I genuinely forgot how heated people get about the DW stuff. Honestly, happy to take back what I meant to be a measured, middle of road take on DW if it means this thread can get back to being about this years team lmao

It’s too late for that…no room for reason in here; you are either with us or against us*

*TBH, I too don’t know whether I’m with or against ‘us’ in this case.
 

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