Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[landshark]

He really gets up for every game

Good thing the game lasts less than four hours...

 

[Star Platinum]

I thought he got a bad sunburn.

He got burned so bad his arm fell right off his shoulder

 

[Jargon]

Chernyshov is the Shark in my icon, obviously.

 

[Grinner]

I like our wing prospects as much as the next guy, but wing is basically the easiest position to fill out with free agents and trades once the rebuild enters the compete stage. Defense is a much bigger challenge and the more chances to hit we have in our war chest the better.

Grier has already in many areas demonstrated himself to be a more astute GM than DW (whose unfortunate final stretch has had people underrate his overall career, which was excellent), but one area I'm not sure of is the blockbuster big game hunting in which DW was arguably the best GM in the league during his tenure. I'm not sure Grier is going to be able to pull Norris winners out of a Devin Setoguchi-shaped hat, so I'd rather we set ourselves up best we can to home grow a #1D even if it means gambling a good-bet winger in Musty for a not-so-sure thing in Jiricek.

How can you state DW was excellent. When the rafters are bare?

 

[Original22]

How can you state DW was excellent. When the rafters are bare?

How dare you disrespect the President's Trophy banner!

 

[ChompChomp]

How dare you disrespect the President's Trophy banner!

Is this banner still up there? I assume it is.

https://i0.wp.com/www.fearthefin.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2023/08/8_1_medium.jpg?w=640&ssl=1

 

[OverTheLine]

How can you state DW was excellent. When the rafters are bare?

It's a matter of perspective, I guess. Hockey is one of the highest variance of the popular spectator sports. Luck to a great degree determines a significant amount of outcomes in this sport.

The Sharks were among the winningest teams league-wide for the better part of the 2000s and 2010s years with an incredible playoff streak and five very deep playoff runs under his tenure (four conference finals, one SCF). That we didn't win it all is a very deep and bitter disappointment, but laying all the blame at DW's feet seems silly to me. At the end of the day, professional hockey is about entertainment and for years and years I got to watch extremely competitive hockey led by an all-time player acquired by DW in a masterstroke trade. He consistently put a competitive roster on the ice, and over the course of his GMing tenure it's hard to say more than four or five fanbases (Hawks, Penguins, Kings, and maybe the Bruins and Caps) were having a better time than us. There were dark spots, of course, and he had some serious failings (never getting a better goaltender than Nabakov, for instance), but the 2010s was an incredible decade of hockey for the Sharks and I think bad luck has as much to do with the lack of cups for us as any particular individual scapegoat. I feel the same way about blaming 'tin man' Thornton or 'gutless' Marleau.

 

[Original22]

Is this banner still up there? I assume it is.

https://i0.wp.com/www.fearthefin.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2023/08/8_1_medium.jpg?w=640&ssl=1

Oh yeah, all the Pacific and Western Conference banners are all there still

 

[Grinner]

It's a matter of perspective, I guess. Hockey is one of the highest variance of the popular spectator sports. Luck to a great degree determines a significant amount of outcomes in this sport.

The Sharks were among the winningest teams league-wide for the better part of the 2000s and 2010s years with an incredible playoff streak and five very deep playoff runs under his tenure (four conference finals, one SCF). That we didn't win it all is a very deep and bitter disappointment, but laying all the blame at DW's feet seems silly to me. At the end of the day, professional hockey is about entertainment and for years and years I got to watch extremely competitive hockey led by an all-time player acquired by DW in a masterstroke trade. He consistently put a competitive roster on the ice, and over the course of his GMing tenure it's hard to say more than four or five fanbases (Hawks, Penguins, Kings, and maybe the Bruins and Caps) were having a better time than us. There were dark spots, of course, and he had some serious failings (never getting a better goaltender than Nabakov, for instance), but the 2010s was an incredible decade of hockey for the Sharks and I think bad luck has as much to do with the lack of cups for us as any particular individual scapegoat. I feel the same way about blaming 'tin man' Thornton or 'gutless' Marleau.

I can think of no better metric for a GM 's success, than championships. 16 years was it?
Yes, he kept us competitive and ownership happy by not losing money and keeping fannies in the seats.
And yes. It's an entertainment business first and foremost.

 

[OverTheLine]

I can think of no better metric for a GM 's success, than championships. 16 years was it?
Yes, he kept us competitive and ownership happy by not losing money and keeping fannies in the seats.
And yes. It's an entertainment business first and foremost.

Like I said, it's just my personal perspective. I think that championships in hockey are more strongly determined by luck (puck bounces, injuries, ups and downs of shooting percentages) than other sports, so I think using it as a metric to gauge an executive's success feels weird to me.

Separate from the championship issue, the fact that DW saw us a couple wins away from a cup with basically no lottery picks during his tenure is mind-bogglingly crazy, and much more indicative of GM talent and acumen than getting a #1 by virtue of the cosmic benevolence of a ping pong ball and then drafting someone like Sidney Crosby or Connor McDavid. It doesn't take any managerial skill to do that, just the fortune of the gods. Winning so much for so long by virtue of trades and personnel decisions is a much stronger reflection, IMO, of DW's ability as a manager. Not to say I think he was perfect or anything. Just that I think he was a very, very good executive, perhaps one of the best of his generation, who unfortunately never got the final win.

Would you similarly take issue with me saying Thornton is an excellent player? His cupboard is equally bare.

 

[coooldude]

Is this banner still up there? I assume it is.

https://i0.wp.com/www.fearthefin.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2023/08/8_1_medium.jpg?w=640&ssl=1

I didn't remember seeing the regular season banner on Monday or Saturday when I was there... Pacific champions, presidents trophy, but not Western conference regular season I don't think. Maybe I missed it.

 

[DarrylshutzSydor]

Like I said, it's just my personal perspective. I think that championships in hockey are more strongly determined by luck (puck bounces, injuries, ups and downs of shooting percentages) than other sports, so I think using it as a metric to gauge an executive's success feels weird to me.

Separate from the championship issue, the fact that DW saw us a couple wins away from a cup with basically no lottery picks during his tenure is mind-bogglingly crazy, and much more indicative of GM talent and acumen than getting a #1 by virtue of the cosmic benevolence of a ping pong ball and then drafting someone like Sidney Crosby or Connor McDavid. It doesn't take any managerial skill to do that, just the fortune of the gods. Winning so much for so long by virtue of trades and personnel decisions is a much stronger reflection, IMO, of DW's ability as a manager. Not to say I think he was perfect or anything. Just that I think he was a very, very good executive, perhaps one of the best of his generation, who unfortunately never got the final win.

Would you similarly take issue with me saying Thornton is an excellent player? His cupboard is equally bare.

Not saying I 100% agree with you, but you make some good points. Remember the 1986 Candiens Cup win, does that happen if the Oilers do not lose to the Flames (see Steve Smith shot off Fuhr into his own net). I was never a Wilson fan (player or GM), but interesting points none the less.

 

[Alaskanice]

It's a matter of perspective, I guess. Hockey is one of the highest variance of the popular spectator sports. Luck to a great degree determines a significant amount of outcomes in this sport.

The Sharks were among the winningest teams league-wide for the better part of the 2000s and 2010s years with an incredible playoff streak and five very deep playoff runs under his tenure (four conference finals, one SCF). That we didn't win it all is a very deep and bitter disappointment, but laying all the blame at DW's feet seems silly to me. At the end of the day, professional hockey is about entertainment and for years and years I got to watch extremely competitive hockey led by an all-time player acquired by DW in a masterstroke trade. He consistently put a competitive roster on the ice, and over the course of his GMing tenure it's hard to say more than four or five fanbases (Hawks, Penguins, Kings, and maybe the Bruins and Caps) were having a better time than us. There were dark spots, of course, and he had some serious failings (never getting a better goaltender than Nabakov, for instance), but the 2010s was an incredible decade of hockey for the Sharks and I think bad luck has as much to do with the lack of cups for us as any particular individual scapegoat. I feel the same way about blaming 'tin man' Thornton or 'gutless' Marleau.

I thank you for saying this. We had great teams for a long time. Sold out arenas and San Jose became a fortress.

 

[hohosaregood]

It's a matter of perspective, I guess. Hockey is one of the highest variance of the popular spectator sports. Luck to a great degree determines a significant amount of outcomes in this sport.

The Sharks were among the winningest teams league-wide for the better part of the 2000s and 2010s years with an incredible playoff streak and five very deep playoff runs under his tenure (four conference finals, one SCF). That we didn't win it all is a very deep and bitter disappointment, but laying all the blame at DW's feet seems silly to me. At the end of the day, professional hockey is about entertainment and for years and years I got to watch extremely competitive hockey led by an all-time player acquired by DW in a masterstroke trade. He consistently put a competitive roster on the ice, and over the course of his GMing tenure it's hard to say more than four or five fanbases (Hawks, Penguins, Kings, and maybe the Bruins and Caps) were having a better time than us. There were dark spots, of course, and he had some serious failings (never getting a better goaltender than Nabakov, for instance), but the 2010s was an incredible decade of hockey for the Sharks and I think bad luck has as much to do with the lack of cups for us as any particular individual scapegoat. I feel the same way about blaming 'tin man' Thornton or 'gutless' Marleau.

I think DW did a bunch of good things for the team especially in terms of making big swing trades but I never really felt he was good at building a team. I felt like in his wins, he kinda just got players everybody knew were good and not really one's that fit the needs of the team or the locker room.

More often than not, this team did not have the depth and we constantly cycled through random bottom 6 guys who ended up in SJ as their final stop in the league. We always needed better puck movement on the back end and we ended up having 1, maybe 2, at any given time between Burns, Boyle, and Karlsson but not many guys like Demers. Another example of poor team building to me was during the PDB years, we had one great playmaker in Thornton and that was it. Just not a very balanced team building approach imo

 

[one2gamble]

Is this banner still up there? I assume it is.

https://i0.wp.com/www.fearthefin.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2023/08/8_1_medium.jpg?w=640&ssl=1

It's not

 

[Jargon]

I think DW did a bunch of good things for the team especially in terms of making big swing trades but I never really felt he was good at building a team. I felt like in his wins, he kinda just got players everybody knew were good and not really one's that fit the needs of the team or the locker room.

More often than not, this team did not have the depth and we constantly cycled through random bottom 6 guys who ended up in SJ as their final stop in the league. We always needed better puck movement on the back end and we ended up having 1, maybe 2, at any given time between Burns, Boyle, and Karlsson but not many guys like Demers. Another example of poor team building to me was during the PDB years, we had one great playmaker in Thornton and that was it. Just not a very balanced team building approach imo

I will say it’s what I really like about Grier. DW was a big game hunter and he was good at it but I feel like Grier is very specifically trying to build a team meant for playoff success. Obviously he’s at the very beginning of it and we’ll see how it goes but I see his thought processes and I like them.

 

[mogambomoroo]

I would like to add one thing that was silently a very important matter this season so far.
Celebrini got to be a part of Thornton number retired with all the speeches, highlights and achievements mentioned. He will for sure want one day to be in that company out there in the rafters. I believe this one of those moments he will remember and work upon. I believe he has the talent to bring the cup one day and be the ultimate San Jose Shark of all the time.

Now I know this is too much into the future, but this moment could be one of those that lock Celebrini to become a very loyal player to that beautiful logo.

 

[OrrNumber4]

DW had his plus points, but fundamentally he iced a team that wasn't actually competitive.

His expectations for Nabokov, Thornton, Boyle, Marleau, and Jones were too high.

 

[Hodge]

Grier built a competent bottom six in a few weeks over the summer. Wilson couldn’t build one in 19 years.

Jumbo completely snubbing him in his speech says it all. You can blame Thornton or Marleau or Nabokov or McLellan for the Sharks playoff failures all you want but there is one common denominator with all those teams and it’s Wilson.

 

[Barrie22]

My main complaint with wilson was that he was always the follower and was always to slow to catch onto the way the league was headed.

He would see the way certain teams were built that won the cup and by the time he got it to where he wanted the type of teams were on the down fall and new style would be emerging.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Grier built a competent bottom six in a few weeks over the summer. Wilson couldn’t build one in 19 years.

Because of the way cap rises don't touch all players symmetrically (among other reasons), it's difficult to compare the teams. Some of those teams had fine depth.

Jumbo completely snubbing him in his speech says it all. You can blame Thornton or Marleau or Nabokov or McLellan for the Sharks playoff failures all you want but there is one common denominator with all those teams and it’s Wilson.

Blame all of them...but I agree that the ultimate responsibility is with Doug Wilson.

 

[TheBeard]

Grier built a competent bottom six in a few weeks over the summer. Wilson couldn’t build one in 19 years.

Jumbo completely snubbing him in his speech says it all. You can blame Thornton or Marleau or Nabokov or McLellan for the Sharks playoff failures all you want but there is one common denominator with all those teams and it’s Wilson.

If we were icing this bottom 6 as a playoff contender you would be livid.

 

[Hodge]

If we were icing this bottom 6 as a playoff contender you would be livid.

A bottom six consisting of the current versions of Wennberg, Sturm, Kunin, Dellandrea, Goodrow and Grundstrom would be a massive upgrade over every bottom six DW iced during Thornton’s prime with the exception of those few months in 2011 when Pavs was 3C.

 

[TheBeard]

A bottom six consisting of the current versions of Wennberg, Sturm, Kunin, Dellandrea, Goodrow and Grundstrom would be a massive upgrade over every bottom six DW iced during Thornton’s prime with the exception of those few months in 2011 when Pavs was 3C.

We wouldn’t have been able to afford it and even if we could you, like all of us, would be annoyed at the misappropriation of funds.

 

[Jargon]

A bottom six consisting of the current versions of Wennberg, Sturm, Kunin, Dellandrea, Goodrow and Grundstrom would be a massive upgrade over every bottom six DW iced during Thornton’s prime with the exception of those few months in 2011 when Pavs was 3C.

I would agree with that, it always felt like an afterthought, it was really a glaring hole in DW’s plan.