Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Kat Predator]

This seems pretty bizarre to me. Two people who seem like they barely have any knowledge of the Sharks.

We now have a highly rated prospect pool, 4 1st round picks in the next 2 drafts, and are likely going to get a top 3 pick this year.

We have a few guys who will graduate next year and be able to play in the league.

We have a ton of cap space to get some vets.

Like obviously we’re not competing next year, but I feel like this is a pretty textbook rebuild, no?

Textbook start for the "burn it all to the ground" phase. We're in the #1 lottery spot, so if that's the objective: mission accomplished.

Jury is still out of if Grier nails the draft picks, develops those picks, adds the right veterans, and gets the required coaching to be a textbook and successful rebuild.

Not saying he's "failed" (that's a dumb take), but have to see where it goes.

PS: They're probably just annoyed the Blackhawks aren't still outracing us to the bottom. "Everyone" wants to see the O6 team nab the #1 pick, right?

 

[Jargon]

Textbook start for the "burn it all to the ground" phase. We're in the #1 lottery spot, so if that's the objective: mission accomplished.

Jury is still out of if Grier nails the draft picks, develops those picks, adds the right veterans, and gets the required coaching to be a textbook and successful rebuild.

Not saying he's "failed" (that's a dumb take), but have to see where it goes.

PS: They're probably just annoyed the Blackhawks aren't still outracing us to the bottom. "Everyone" wants to see the O6 team nab the #1 pick, right?

Jury’s still out but the way they’re talking about the team it’s like we’ve loaded up on 35 year olds and are trying to go for the Cup next year.

We’re exactly where a rebuilding team needs to be in the first phase of said rebuild. They sound like idiots.

 

[tiburon12]

Dumping on the Shark's rebuild is the easy, no-brain route to creating content about them. Like, sure, devoid on context, the Sharks are on year 4 of no playoffs and are just at their nadir (hopefully), so by conventional rebuild standards they are another 4ish years away. That would be 8 years of no playoffs, which would be on the all-time list of droughts.

And then you look at what they've done and you see, Oh they JUST traded Hertl and got a bad return, and they STILL have Couture and Vlasic on the books AND they have no retention spots. Plus they only have 1 blue chip prospect and he isn't even the best player on his college team.

So yea, on the surface it looks terrible. And we shouldn't accept the opinions of talking heads who only look at the surface. We'll go nuts.

Clearly Sheng agrees with them

Sheng fence sits a lot. In some ways it's good he's objective and realistic about things, but sometimes I think he worries about being too homer-y and will say things off the cuff that are too far into the opposite. Honestly it's probably a pretty hard thing to balance as a reporter.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Maybe he is saying that the Sharks don't have good veteran support in place, so the prospects coming into the team next year are not going to develop properly?

Or, it's possible he hasn't been paying attention and thinks that the Sharks have been rebuilding since 2020...and in that case, he'd be correct that the rebuild isn't going well.

 

[timorous me]

There are things worth wasting time and energy on, and then there are the opinions of guys like Pierre and Seravalli.

I don't spend time scouring hockey twitter or anything, so I only see what You People™ post from there. But from what I read of more trustworthy, clued-in hockey writers, it seems like there's pretty decent acceptance of what Grier is doing as the right and necessary approach, even if each move isn't universally praised (though the Hertl trade, for instance, got an A or A- from all three of The Athletic's writers who graded it, and I think it's safe to say that a deal like the Meier one, which didn't look like a big win at the time of consummation, is seeming better all the time now, which only helps to validate Grier's approach and ability to turn things in the right direction).

 

[sharks_dynasty]

There are things worth wasting time and energy on, and then there are the opinions of guys like Pierre and Seravalli.

I don't spend time scouring hockey twitter or anything, so I only see what You People™ post from there. But from what I read of more trustworthy, clued-in hockey writers, it seems like there's pretty decent acceptance of what Grier is doing as the right and necessary approach, even if each move isn't universally praised (though the Hertl trade, for instance, got an A or A- from all three of The Athletic's writers who graded it, and I think it's safe to say that a deal like the Meier one, which didn't look like a big win at the time of consummation, is seeming better all the time now, which only helps to validate Grier's approach and ability to turn things in the right direction).

What I don’t appreciate about these writers is that they don’t provide any suggestions on better alternatives. If you look at the team objectively, I don’t think that Grier had a lot of options other than to dismantle considering the veterans will be unable to provide much support when the kids are ready. Also, you need draft ammo and the only way to get that is by trading vets like Meier and Hertl. Not to mention the cap flexibility we have now.

In my opinion, Grier is doing a fabulous job and frankly I don’t see what else he could have done.

One more thing that often gets missed is that I’m sure Hasso is appreciative of getting out of long and expensive contracts that save him some money while the team is not competitive. No point spending more when you don’t have to. If you take this into account, perhaps Grier is doing what right for the owner of the team along with building for the future. Thankfully Hasso is the one that pays for Grier and not the writers.

 

[Grinner]

Perhaps Pierre was buddy buddy with Wilson

 

[Kat Predator]

Maybe he is saying that the Sharks don't have good veteran support in place, so the prospects coming into the team next year are not going to develop properly?

Or, it's possible he hasn't been paying attention and thinks that the Sharks have been rebuilding since 2020...and in that case, he'd be correct that the rebuild isn't going well.

I'll second the not paying attention idea.

I'd add that they are high on their own supply to a degree. Just because writers say that you can burn a franchise to the ground and rebuild it to a Cup contender in 4 or 5 years doesn't mean every situation is the same or that they know what they are talking about. The contrary evidence abounds.

After going to the finals, Wilson went from having a team that was decently structured with respect to the cap and to play on the ice to buying shiny objects and throwing things at the wall. He was largely an absentee GM at the end. He left the team as a mess, insisting it was "a player or two away."

Grier. so far, has spent his tenure undoing all that. It's not like you can snap your fingers and get rid of everyone. It's taken some time and he's been successful at moving out pieces with any remaining value.

Again, it remains to be seen if he has the chops to actually build something exceptional, even iconic, now that the smoking crater is complete. No choice other than to wait and see what happens.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

For anyone that craps on Grier, I'd just like to ask them what else he could've done?

Keep in mind he had no prospects, cap space, or picks, and had an aging roster with the 11th overall selection when being hired.

Burns was getting old, big cap hit, and only would go to a few teams...obviously the return would be minimal. Plus Lorentz eventually became Duclair who eventually became Thompson and another 3rd.
Meier had a 10M QO, but was having a great season...great return for him.
Karlsson had one of the biggest contracts in the league, and before his 100pt season people were putting him up there for one of the worst contracts in the NHL...Grier got back what will be a very high 1st round pick and can turn Granlund into another asset next year (not to mention the obvious cap space)
Hertl longggggg contract to a player who was already a bad skater (I'm sure that will age well), was anyone other than Vegas even legit interested?...freed up millions in cap, and 2 1st rounders essentially.

Now the team has the cap room to do whatever they want moving forward...whether that's locking up all of their prospects, signing a big name free agent, or trading for a star. On top of Will Smith (who just led the NCAA in scoring) we're in the best chance to draft 1st overall this year, and have 4 1sts in the next 2 drafts (3 of which could be very high). Anyone who thinks he's done a bad job in terms of rebuilding thinks we would've been better off middling out and becoming the 2010-2020 Minnesota Wild.

 

[landshark]

I'll second the not paying attention idea.

I'd add that they are high on their own supply to a degree. Just because writers say that you can burn a franchise to the ground and rebuild it to a Cup contender in 4 or 5 years doesn't mean every situation is the same or that they know what they are talking about. The contrary evidence abounds.

If those donkeys actually knew what they were talking about regarding rebuilding the Sharks from the steaming pile that DW left behind in that timeline they'd have jobs as NHL General Managers.

That's why they're just shitty click generators that could be replaced by AI.

 

[Le Rosbeef]

Alexa, show me a clip of someone paid to give an opinion they haven't really thought about properly...

 

[one2gamble]

Maybe he is saying that the Sharks don't have good veteran support in place, so the prospects coming into the team next year are not going to develop properly?

Or, it's possible he hasn't been paying attention and thinks that the Sharks have been rebuilding since 2020...and in that case, he'd be correct that the rebuild isn't going well.

i think its both of these things

 

[Jargon]

Sheng fence sits a lot. In some ways it's good he's objective and realistic about things, but sometimes I think he worries about being too homer-y and will say things off the cuff that are too far into the opposite. Honestly it's probably a pretty hard thing to balance as a reporter.

What I really dig about Sheng is that unlike most sports journalists, Sheng seems to have a real journalistic approach. It always feels to me like if he wasn’t a hockey fan he’d be an old timesy investigative reporter in San Francisco, wearing a fedora and drinking whiskies while trying to track down the Zodiac killer.

…so, yeah, I think he often goes out of his way to be balanced and maintain that integrity but I appreciate it.

 

[STL Shark]

Pierre McGuire is right.

If it was maybe someone other than Pierre McGoober then you'd maybe have a point. Guy has been fired from literally every job in hockey that he's ever had outside of reciting where NHL players played junior hockey. He's a clown and unintelligent on the sport as a whole.

Maybe he is saying that the Sharks don't have good veteran support in place, so the prospects coming into the team next year are not going to develop properly?

Or, it's possible he hasn't been paying attention and thinks that the Sharks have been rebuilding since 2020...and in that case, he'd be correct that the rebuild isn't going well.

The first would be true, except he flat out ignores or is unaware (his own fault if so) of the fact that we have the most cap space in the league for the next handful of years to quite literally sign those types of players. It's takes like these that make it so unsurprising that he lasted less than a year in his last job in hockey.

 

[Gecklund]

Maybe he is saying that the Sharks don't have good veteran support in place, so the prospects coming into the team next year are not going to develop properly?

Or, it's possible he hasn't been paying attention and thinks that the Sharks have been rebuilding since 2020...and in that case, he'd be correct that the rebuild isn't going well.

I mean I don’t necessarily disagree with the first paragraph especially at forward. Granlund is good. Sturm is a good vet. Outside of that you got a ton of guys who just aren’t very good. Kunin, Labanc, Hoffman, Barabanov, Smith, etc.

Kostin and Zetterlund (both 24) I feel like are on that cusp of still developing and needing to help other guys develop.

 

[Jargon]

I mean I don’t necessarily disagree with the first paragraph especially at forward. Granlund is good. Sturm is a good vet. Outside of that you got a ton of guys who just aren’t very good. Kunin, Labanc, Hoffman, Barabanov, Smith, etc.

Kostin and Zetterlund (both 24) I feel like are on that cusp of still developing and needing to help other guys develop.

It’s what an off-season is for.

 

[one2gamble]

I mean I don’t necessarily disagree with the first paragraph especially at forward. Granlund is good. Sturm is a good vet. Outside of that you got a ton of guys who just aren’t very good. Kunin, Labanc, Hoffman, Barabanov, Smith, etc.

Kostin and Zetterlund (both 24) I feel like are on that cusp of still developing and needing to help other guys develop.

The NHL over values vet leadership. You need a couple good guys that put in real work to keep the kids grounded but thats about it. They dont need to be top liners or anything but the people who are good enough to make the NHL are already pro's and have been for a long time.

I also want to add that a good development staff at all levels is just as important as any player leadership. I am not sure the Sharks have this yet.

 

[Gecklund]

It’s what an off-season is for.

Oh definitely agree. I think we can sign that in the offseason (or trade for it like Duclair).

The NHL over values vet leadership. You need a couple good guys that put in real work to keep the kids grounded but thats about it. They dont need to be top liners or anything but the people who are good enough to make the NHL are already pro's and have been for a long time.

I also want to add that a good development staff at all levels is just as important as any player leadership. I am not sure the Sharks have this yet.

I agree in some ways. I think the actual leadership side, yes they can be a Nico Sturm level player. The one thing that I think they need to be good for is taking the pressure off the young guys. I’d prefer if my young guys don’t get top competition game in and game out which if the leadership is all Nico Sturm level then they’ll get top competition. That’s why guys like Granlund and Duclair are so important. If we can add another guy or two like that I’m perfectly happy.

 

[Saskatoon]

Yea like before the Sharks started making these moves they weren't even sniffing the playoffs

So I am curious what Pierre would have done differently - be the 6th worst team in the league instead of the worst team until all those contracts ran out?

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It certainly makes one wonder.

Given some of the reactions to giving Aliu an AHL tryout, it's hard to ignore that possibility but it depends on who it is and what they're saying. Some are just going to be like that with Grier but I tend to give at least Pierre a little more benefit of the doubt on that front. I just think it's more not paying attention than anything else or underestimating just how bad the situation was when Grier got hired in 2022. For the two years he's been here, he's gotten out of significant chunks of long term commitment between Burns' three years left then, Karlsson's four years left this past offseason, and Hertl's six years left after this season. We're probably buying out Vlasic's last two years and we're probably eating what's left of Couture's three years due to his injury. I don't think people quite understood how large a portion the teardown part of the rebuild had yet to be completed when Grier took over since DW did nothing towards that. And we basically had to start from scratch on the prospect pool as well. Right now, Eklund, Bordeleau, and Gushchin are really the only DW draftees that are either establishing themselves or on the doorstep that would go towards a rebuild effort at this stage.

At least now it feels like we're at the tail end of the transition from the previous era to the new one.

 

[Jargon]

Given some of the reactions to giving Aliu an AHL tryout, it's hard to ignore that possibility but it depends on who it is and what they're saying. Some are just going to be like that with Grier but I tend to give at least Pierre a little more benefit of the doubt on that front. I just think it's more not paying attention than anything else or underestimating just how bad the situation was when Grier got hired in 2022. For the two years he's been here, he's gotten out of significant chunks of long term commitment between Burns' three years left then, Karlsson's four years left this past offseason, and Hertl's six years left after this season. We're probably buying out Vlasic's last two years and we're probably eating what's left of Couture's three years due to his injury. I don't think people quite understood how large a portion the teardown part of the rebuild had yet to be completed when Grier took over since DW did nothing towards that. And we basically had to start from scratch on the prospect pool as well. Right now, Eklund, Bordeleau, and Gushchin are really the only DW draftees that are either establishing themselves or on the doorstep that would go towards a rebuild effort at this stage.

At least now it feels like we're at the tail end of the transition from the previous era to the new one.

Yeah, one of the reasons I’m excited about this off-season is because it feels like the first off-season Grier actually has the money and time to rebuild rather than tear down. There’s no big Karlsson trade to work out, etc. and I think we’ll start getting to see a bit more of his plans for what the team of the future looks like (a lot also depends on if we get Celebrini obviously).

 

[coooldude]

I mean, Skip Bayless and Stephen A. Smith, Shannon Sharpe get paid millions to spout absolutely inane, dumb, controversial, even offensive takes about sports that are more popular. Hockey's problem is that Pierre is the closest we have to this kind of lowest-common-denominator entertainment and he's not even interesting. I care not what they think or say. Same as I cared not whether they said Jumbo was a loser or Jumbo was being held back by Patty or whatever bullshit was being written back in the 2010's.

 

[timorous me]

I mean I don’t necessarily disagree with the first paragraph especially at forward. Granlund is good. Sturm is a good vet. Outside of that you got a ton of guys who just aren’t very good. Kunin, Labanc, Hoffman, Barabanov, Smith, etc.

Kostin and Zetterlund (both 24) I feel like are on that cusp of still developing and needing to help other guys develop.

And really, for the majority of the season the team also had good vets like Hertl and Duclair playing up front. And Couture was supposed to be part of that group. Maybe Cooch will be back, and I'm sure one or two other veteran leadery types will be brought in this offseason, so it's only right now, for a couple months, where it feels like there's a deficit in that regard.

Anyway, people like Pierre couldn't be arsed to give half a shit about the Sharks and know much about them for the decade-plus when they were one of the best teams in the league, year-in, year-out, so it really shouldn't come as a surprise that they know even less nowadays.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Yeah, one of the reasons I’m excited about this off-season is because it feels like the first off-season Grier actually has the money and time to rebuild rather than tear down. There’s no big Karlsson trade to work out, etc. and I think we’ll start getting to see a bit more of his plans for what the team of the future looks like (a lot also depends on if we get Celebrini obviously).

Yeah, this offseason will be more about additions and a somewhat more clearer vision of the future than tearing down the past. There's only like five guys on the cap sheet that were there under DW for next year between Couture, Eklund, Ferraro, Knyzhov, and Vlasic. And I wouldn't be surprised if the last three on that list are gone by the time next season starts anyway.

 

[coupe89]

I think some people here just do not realize how much the hockey media hate the sharks for some reason especially here in Canada. I have seen it since the 90s.