Blue Jays GDT: 2022 v8 | Next: Fri, Aug 12 | vs Cle | 7:00pm ET/4:00pm PT | Quantrill vs Berrios

[TheBeastCoast]

Why do you feel like your "jilted lover" insult attempt is an appropriate substitute for an argument? It's not even applicable in this instance as I'm not upset at AA.

You can't get over him. Maybe he is the one that got away then, either way it is nearing a decade it is time. He isn't coming back and we have our own issues that aren't 7 years old.

 

[Kurtz]

You can't get over him. Maybe he is the one that got away then, either way it is nearing a decade it is time. He isn't coming back and we have our own issues that aren't 7 years old.

AA's departure was a result of this current management group's actions. If judging this management group's actions 7 years ago is too far back for you, could you establish a cutoff point that you feel is appropriate? Are we allowed to discuss Shatkin's moves going 6 years back? 5? 1?

One thing to keep in mind, up to this point, the current management group has done a good job. The team had produced well. The team was supposed to take the next step this year and hasn't done so. While it sucks, I don't think getting rid of an entire management group due to a failed year is a wise move.

Rogers won't fire these guys even if we miss the wild card again, we know that. Next year they'll be under more scrutiny, so perhaps then.

I don't know if "produced well" is accurate - we have a bottom tier farm, haven't made the playoffs, and our current team looks to be in trouble. If the expectation was merely that we'd stay competitive into September (something we would have killed for a decade ago, in fairness) then I suppose they've produced there.

 

[canucksfan]

AA's departure was a result of this current management group's actions. If judging this management group's actions 7 years ago is too far back for you, could you establish a cutoff point that you feel is appropriate? Are we allowed to discuss Shatkin's moves going 6 years back? 5? 1?



Rogers won't fire these guys even if we miss the wild card again, we know that. Next year they'll be under more scrutiny, so perhaps then.

I don't know if "produced well" is accurate - we have a bottom tier farm, haven't made the playoffs, and our current team looks to be in trouble. If the expectation was merely that we'd stay competitive into September (something we would have killed for a decade ago, in fairness) then I suppose they've produced there.

Wasn't clear as I should have been with the produced well statement. Up until this season, the team has followed a good path to rebuilding. They made the COVID playoffs in 2020 and almost made it last year and that's despite playing in multiple ballparks. Only this year has been a disappointment. They could turn it around and make a good playoff run this year, but I doubt it.

 

[stickty111]

Yeah, I'm not quite seeing your point here. AA could have been promoted, but Rogers fell in love with Shapiro because he promised them he could build a playoff contender on a budget while also helping drive the big business stuff like the reno, possible location change, etc.

Which I guess he's delivered. While AA is building a dynasty in Atlanta, Shapiro has been filling seats and driving the reno initiative.

AA could have stayed under Shapiro btw - but Shapiro purposely drove him out of town with his ridiculous public criticism to bring in his own guy in Atkins. And what was that criticism btw? Well he was pissed that AA gave up too many assets at the deadline and failed to build up pitching depth in the minors. And voila, 7 years into Shatkins tenure - our season possibly down the drain thanks to a chintzy deadline and our system has zero pitching depth to speak of.

Thats the most hilarious part about all of this. Every day these guys look clueless

 

[Beaumaris]

I hope Atkins is given his walking papers although highly unlikely. He is best buds with Shapiro.

Maybe both

Despite major challanges, Mark Shapiro and Ross Atkins have passed the tests

And what test would that be ?

 

[Beaumaris]

One thing to keep in mind, up to this point, the current management group has done a good job. The team had produced well. The team was supposed to take the next step this year and hasn't done so. While it sucks, I don't think getting rid of an entire management group due to a failed year is a wise move.

This organization reminds me so much of The Leafs.Ugh !!

 

[ShaneFalco]

Passed the tests.
"He just needs playoff success but the lack there of isn't on him" (them)

 

[VanW27]

A big problem the Jays are facing is the overly optimistic projections - Division favourite and AL favourite, based on the idea they are a young team and should continue to get better and build off 2021.

There's a couple problems with that:

1. The young guys all had big years that matching would be tall tasks. Teoscar likely had his career year, Gurriel possibly as well, Bo while still very young likely had one of the best years of his career. Even for Vladdy, as great as he is and will be, he had such a monster year expecting even more from him this year was ridiculous.

2. We lost two of the best players in baseball from last season in Ray (Cy Young) and Semien (3rd in MVP voting). I completely agree with moving on from both and believe/believed you're getting more out of Gausman and Chapman this year and going forward.
But in order to say you've improved from those positions the comparison isn't what they will do compared to each going forward, it's what Gausman/Chapman do compare to what Ray/Semien gave us in 2021, which is a guaranteed downgrade.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

AA's departure was a result of this current management group's actions. If judging this management group's actions 7 years ago is too far back for you, could you establish a cutoff point that you feel is appropriate? Are we allowed to discuss Shatkin's moves going 6 years back? 5? 1?



Rogers won't fire these guys even if we miss the wild card again, we know that. Next year they'll be under more scrutiny, so perhaps then.

I don't know if "produced well" is accurate - we have a bottom tier farm, haven't made the playoffs, and our current team looks to be in trouble. If the expectation was merely that we'd stay competitive into September (something we would have killed for a decade ago, in fairness) then I suppose they've produced there.

AA's departure was a result of him turning down a contract to stay on because he didn't want a more hands on boss in Shapiro compared to Beeston who basically just let AA do whatever he wanted on the baseball side. AA was literally never going to stay under that scenario, that was my point to begin with. The second Shapiro was brought in the power dynamics just were doomed to fail. This current front office has been here for 7 years now. They can stand on their own two feet and we don't need to endlessly go back to AA to praise or criticize them. Maybe it was a mistake but it has absolutely nothing to do with this years team. At all.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Even if it was easy to predict a rocky season for Kikuchi, getting zero value for Ryu and Berrios stings. A lot.

The bats are in a bad funk but they still have 9 starters with league average or better offensive value. 9v9 I still think the only lineup more well rounded/deeper is the Dodgers.

Defensively they're also a top 10 team based on OAA, but are bottom 5 in range/UZR stats. I don't really pay much attention to those figures like I used to but would anyone know if the shift negatively impacts those numbers?

The jays aren't a bad team but ultimately Atkins made a fatal flaw in committing to unreliable starting pitching. When a career tweener like Stripling is your third best starter then there's a serious problem.

I didn't believe the hype around the jays starting pitching this year and unfortunately I was proven correct.

A big problem the Jays are facing is the overly optimistic projections - Division favourite and AL favourite, based on the idea they are a young team and should continue to get better and build off 2021.

There's a couple problems with that:

1. The young guys all had big years that matching would be tall tasks. Teoscar likely had his career year, Gurriel possibly as well, Bo while still very young likely had one of the best years of his career. Even for Vladdy, as great as he is and will be, he had such a monster year expecting even more from him this year was ridiculous.

2. We lost two of the best players in baseball from last season in Ray (Cy Young) and Semien (3rd in MVP voting). I completely agree with moving on from both and believe/believed you're getting more out of Gausman and Chapman this year and going forward.
But in order to say you've improved from those positions the comparison isn't what they will do compared to each going forward, it's what Gausman/Chapman do compare to what Ray/Semien gave us in 2021, which is a guaranteed downgrade.

Agreed but that's not where the problem is. The problem is starting pitching. The lack of depth in the rotation has plagued this team for years now and it just continues. Atkins is either unwilling or unable to address the problem.

 

[Eyedea]

The jays aren't a bad team but ultimately Atkins made a fatal flaw in committing to unreliable starting pitching. When a career tweener like Stripling is your third best starter then there's a serious problem.

I didn't believe the hype around the jays starting pitching this year and unfortunately I was proven correct.



Agreed but that's not where the problem is. The problem is starting pitching. The lack of depth in the rotation has plagued this team for years now and it just continues. Atkins is either unwilling or unable to address the problem.

The perception of Ryu and Berrios were that they were consistent. The latter less dominant, and the former more injury prone, but capable starters that will provide value regardless. They didn't this year and that happens to teams fairly often.

I also think you're underselling Stripling's ability as a pitcher. Outside of 2020-2021 he's been a very good pitcher in the majors. His career peripherals mirror guys like Pablo Lopez, Frankie Montas, Carlos Rodon, and Jose Quintana. Nestor Cortes is the Yankees' second best pitcher and we're not highlighting their rotation as an issue.

 

[RoadWarrior]

The perception of Ryu and Berrios were that they were consistent. The latter less dominant, and the former more injury prone, but capable starters that will provide value regardless. They didn't this year and that happens to teams fairly often.

I also think you're underselling Stripling's ability as a pitcher. Outside of 2020-2021 he's been a very good pitcher in the majors. His career peripherals mirror guys like Pablo Lopez, Frankie Montas, Carlos Rodon, and Jose Quintana. Nestor Cortes is the Yankees' second best pitcher and we're not highlighting their rotation as an issue.

The second sentence belies the truth of the matter in that Ryu is/was injury prone and Berrios less dominant. In other words the potential for disaster was there but no provisions were made by Atkins to provide the necessary depth in the bullpen or the minors.

Stripling is an actual pitcher in that he understands the craft of pitching but his stuff is average which limits his upside. He's not an ideal playoff starter.

 

[Eyedea]

The second sentence belies the truth of the matter in that Ryu is/was injury prone and Berrios less dominant. In other words the potential for disaster was there but no provisions were made by Atkins to provide the necessary depth in the bullpen or the minors.

Stripling is an actual pitcher in that he understands the craft of pitching but his stuff is average which limits his upside. He's not an ideal playoff starter.

Just because Berrios isn't historically a TOR pitcher doesn't mean he's not an adequate #3, which is what he's being paid for. Outside of his rookie season he's never been close to as bad as he has been this season. In my mind it's a fluke year that he hasn't been able to get himself out of. Ryu has had injury concerns, that's what Stripling was for. There was depth in the upper minors but they all decided to crap out at the same time which has also been a huge inconvenience. I think they expected at least one of Thornton, Hatch, Kay, Francis, and Murray to be a depth call up piece. Next year they'll have Tiedemann, Robberse, Van Eyk, Kloffenstein, Palmer, and Melean as other potential depth options at AA-AAA in 2023 with Zulu and Juenger I believe transitioning to the bullpen fulltime.

I also don't think we can be so confident in saying that (re: Stripling) when we had first hand experience watching Price falter and Estrada excel.

 

[EpochLink]

Any GM who think Jackie Bradley Jr can help a team is either desperate or not very good.

This ain’t 2018, why did we pick him up anyways?
By far the most puzzling pick up, is he an injection to the lineup or what.

 

[Blitzkrug]

I don't want to sound like a boomer here that doesn't care about player wellbeing but like..They can't afford to be giving Springer a day off right now.

And if they absolutely have to...his spot should go to the guy you traded for to deal with situations exactly like this in Merrifield.

Why Chapman is batting lead off ahead of somebody like Gurriel, especially when the former has been colder than a freezer full of popsicles in the blizzard lately confuses me greatly.

This is Montoyo level stupidity lineup wise.

 

[Eyedea]

Chapman's been cold but peripheral stats are still there. Only thing that has really hurt him is being to patient a la Biggio. Gurriel hasn't been particularly hot this month either, and forget about Merrifield.

Just park Vladdy at leadoff and go from there.

 

[mikeyz]

Chicken Strips is looking good so far.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Stripling looking great after the short IL stint.

I hope he pushes the envelope today and goes past his usual 4 or 5 innings but that's probably not super likely

 

[Blitzkrug]

Bo strikes out...looking?

I would be pissed because of another craptastic go from our bats but Bo didn't do bad there.

Obviously you'd rather him try to go to town on that down and away fastball but he laid off of crap that he usually swings at so uh... progress?

 

[RoadWarrior]

I don't want to sound like a boomer here that doesn't care about player wellbeing but like..They can't afford to be giving Springer a day off right now.

And if they absolutely have to...his spot should go to the guy you traded for to deal with situations exactly like this in Merrifield.

Why Chapman is batting lead off ahead of somebody like Gurriel, especially when the former has been colder than a freezer full of popsicles in the blizzard lately confuses me greatly.

This is Montoyo level stupidity lineup wise.

Agreed. At this stage of the season Tapia should be glued to the bench unless they need a pinch runner or lefty bat to pinch hit for Jansen.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Voth throws his 4 seamer only 44% of the time. Jays hitters should continue to expect a heavy dose of cutters and curveballs, so I hope they adjust accordingly....

At least Chicken Strips is dialed in. Pounding the zone. Only what, 5 balls thrown so far???

 

[Blitzkrug]

Voth throws his 4 seamer only 44% of the time. Jays hitters should continue to expect a heavy dose of cutters and curveballs, so I hope they adjust accordingly....

All down and away and most will presumably be swung at.

 

[RoadWarrior]

The perception of Ryu and Berrios were that they were consistent. The latter less dominant, and the former more injury prone, but capable starters that will provide value regardless. They didn't this year and that happens to teams fairly often.

I also think you're underselling Stripling's ability as a pitcher. Outside of 2020-2021 he's been a very good pitcher in the majors. His career peripherals mirror guys like Pablo Lopez, Frankie Montas, Carlos Rodon, and Jose Quintana. Nestor Cortes is the Yankees' second best pitcher and we're not highlighting their rotation as an issue.

Paying Kikuchi 12 x 3 was completely absurd in February and it looks even more absurd now. The guy did nothing in Seattle except fail.

 

[Eyedea]

Paying Kikuchi 12 x 3 was completely absurd in February and it looks even more absurd now. The guy did nothing in Seattle except fail.

Okay and I'm not going to defend the deal. But I'm talking about the other guys here, not Kikuchi.

 

[Woodman19]

Paying Kikuchi 12 x 3 was completely absurd in February and it looks even more absurd now. The guy did nothing in Seattle except fail.

Not that it matters much, but its a front loaded deal at 16/10/10 so its in theory "Easier" to move 10/10 with retention or just outright releasing if need be.