Blue Jays GDT: 2022 v8 | Next: Fri, Aug 12 | vs Cle | 7:00pm ET/4:00pm PT | Quantrill vs Berrios

[Blitzkrug]

I'm not going to say the season is over, but there's a really, really good chance the rest of this week is the nail in the coffin for the Jays.

You absolutely cannot get swept by the O's and then potentially drop a series in the Bronx if you want to contend. You NEEDED the games against the O's and you're going to need the game against the Yankees even more given they're struggling.

Put up or shut up time, gentleman. Schneider said it's going to click, so it better start clicking.

 

[supermann_98]

Despite major challanges, Mark Shapiro and Ross Atkins have passed the tests

 

[Kurtz]

Yup. It's even worse when you consider this management group was gifted a generational prospect in Vladdy to begin a rebuild with(thanks AA). Their ability to sorround him has been a disaster. Their big FA signings haven't worked out in Springer and Ryu. Some decent trades along the way in Berrios but his signing looks like a nightmare. Kikuchi is Kikuchi. Bichette is fine but there are flaws with him. When the flawed Teo is the only OF who you can develop, something is seriously wrong.
They also haven't created a reliable rotation all these years, and only pitcher they developed was Manoah.
Bullpen they don't think is important so won't continue to harp on that

And AA has just locked up Harris to an 8 year deal. The guy has been running circles around our management ever since he got to Atlanta. Out of all of the shitty moves this management group has done, running AA out of town is looking to be the their gravest error.

 

[EpochLink]

I'm not going to say the season is over, but there's a really, really good chance the rest of this week is the nail in the coffin for the Jays.

You absolutely cannot get swept by the O's and then potentially drop a series in the Bronx if you want to contend. You NEEDED the games against the O's and you're going to need the game against the Yankees even more given they're struggling.

Put up or shut up time, gentleman. Schneider said it's going to click, so it better start clicking.

It’s all talk right now, gotta produce

 

[Puckstuff]

53 million for Ryu, Berrios and Kikuchi and a combined -2.3 WAR pretty much summarizes the season. If 3/5 of your starters tank that's really hard to over come. The team can probably turn it around though. I don't think we're actually this bad as long as Stripling and White come in and right the ship by giving us some valuable innings. Offence should rebound and the bullpen is much improved.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

And AA has just locked up Harris to an 8 year deal. The guy has been running circles around our management ever since he got to Atlanta. Out of all of the shitty moves this management group has done, running AA out of town is looking to be the their gravest error.

AA was never in a million years staying under Shapiro. I think AA knew he was leaving the second Beaston retired. Nobody was run out of town.

 

[Eyedea]

53 million for Ryu, Berrios and Kikuchi and a combined -2.3 WAR pretty much summarizes the season. If 3/5 of your starters tank that's really hard to over come. The team can probably turn it around though. I don't think we're actually this bad as long as Stripling and White come in and right the ship by giving us some valuable innings. Offence should rebound and the bullpen is much improved.

Even if it was easy to predict a rocky season for Kikuchi, getting zero value for Ryu and Berrios stings. A lot.

The bats are in a bad funk but they still have 9 starters with league average or better offensive value. 9v9 I still think the only lineup more well rounded/deeper is the Dodgers.

Defensively they're also a top 10 team based on OAA, but are bottom 5 in range/UZR stats. I don't really pay much attention to those figures like I used to but would anyone know if the shift negatively impacts those numbers?

 

[RayzorIsDull]

AA was never in a million years staying under Shapiro. I think AA knew he was leaving the second Beaston retired. Nobody was run out of town.

What was preventing AA from being Pres of Baseball Operations for the Jays?? He has the same title in Atlanta currently. This seems more of an indictment of the organization rather than Shapiro or Atkins.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Can this team turn it around? Absolutely. However, they are 10-20 vs BAL, TB, and NYY (25-38 vs AL teams above .500) and 27 of the remaining 47 games are against those 3 teams.

Sure, they can beat up on the Red Sox, Cubs, Pirates, Texans, and Angels to stay in the race, but at some point you need to start playing well against potential playoff teams.

 

[Eyedea]

What was preventing AA from being Pres of Baseball Operations for the Jays?? He has the same title in Atlanta currently. This seems more of an indictment of the organization rather than Shapiro or Atkins.

What was preventing AA from being Pres of Baseball Ops in Atlanta? He was hired as VP and GM back in 2017 and only received that promotion in 2020. John Hart had already stepped down in 2017 post-IFA scandal. Mind you that Hart was also the one that restarted the Braves org and introduced that same front office culture that he brought to Cleveland and passed down to Shapiro. Cleveland for a long time now has been a spearhead for analytics and were often getting their front office talent poached. Look around, a lot of GMs, VPs, and Pres' have Cleveland on their resume, or were directly involved/working under someone from Cleveland.

If I'm being completely honest, I don't think ownership expected AA to leave, or they didn't care after 6 years and only one postseason appearance under his belt. Rumours were already circling about Beeston's departure at the end of the season, and there was chatter at the beginning of 2015 that Dan Duquette was going to be the new Pres/CEO (which didn't happen because the Os wanted a crazy amount of comp).

 

[Kurtz]

AA was never in a million years staying under Shapiro. I think AA knew he was leaving the second Beaston retired. Nobody was run out of town.

Yeah, I'm not quite seeing your point here. AA could have been promoted, but Rogers fell in love with Shapiro because he promised them he could build a playoff contender on a budget while also helping drive the big business stuff like the reno, possible location change, etc.

Which I guess he's delivered. While AA is building a dynasty in Atlanta, Shapiro has been filling seats and driving the reno initiative.

AA could have stayed under Shapiro btw - but Shapiro purposely drove him out of town with his ridiculous public criticism to bring in his own guy in Atkins. And what was that criticism btw? Well he was pissed that AA gave up too many assets at the deadline and failed to build up pitching depth in the minors. And voila, 7 years into Shatkins tenure - our season possibly down the drain thanks to a chintzy deadline and our system has zero pitching depth to speak of.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Yeah, I'm not quite seeing your point here. AA could have been promoted, but Rogers fell in love with Shapiro because he promised them he could build a playoff contender on a budget while also helping drive the big business stuff like the reno, possible location change, etc.

Which I guess he's delivered. While AA is building a dynasty in Atlanta, Shapiro has been filling seats and driving the reno initiative.

AA could have stayed under Shapiro btw - but Shapiro purposely drove him out of town with his ridiculous public criticism to bring in his own guy in Atkins. And what was that criticism btw? Well he was pissed that AA gave up too many assets at the deadline and failed to build up pitching depth in the minors. And voila, 7 years into Shatkins tenure - do we have many assets on the farm or any pitching depth to speak of?

My point is pretty clear. AA was never staying here under Shapiro. That is literally my point. The second Shapiro was brought in the clock was ticking on AA. The idea of promoting AA to president is honestly ridiculous and just using hindsight. It was never even a discussion. He left here and took an assistant GM role and over the last 7 years has worked into the new role. This isn't me white washing what has or hasn't happened with Shapiro, but the amount of revisionist history that goes on with AA's tenure with this fanbase is honestly mind numbing. Like it has been 7 years....we can move on from AA now.

 

[Kurtz]

My point is pretty clear. AA was never staying here under Shapiro. That is literally my point. The second Shapiro was brought in the clock was ticking on AA. The idea of promoting AA to president is honestly ridiculous and just using hindsight. It was never even a discussion. He left here and took an assistant GM role and over the last 7 years has worked into the new role. This isn't me white washing what has or hasn't happened with Shapiro, but the amount of revisionist history that goes on with AA's tenure with this fanbase is honestly mind numbing. Like it has been 7 years....we can move on from AA now.

Either your post is revisionist history or you were the rare prescient person in the city because AA's departure was a surprise to everyone else.

Alex Anthopoulos won't return as Blue Jays' GM in surprising departure

Despite building a Blue Jays team that ended a 22-year postseason drought, Alex Anthopoulos will surprisingly not return to Toronto as general manager after rejecting a contract extension.

www.si.com

"
Thanks to a wave of blockbuster trades, Anthopoulos was named the Sporting News MLB Executive of the Year just hours after the news of his departure broke, and he was widely expected to return. Just two days ago, CBS Sports' Jon Heyman reported, "Alex Anthopoulos is expected to be brought back, but quietly. [Incoming team president] Mark Shapiro isn't even intending to announce it when he extends Anthopoulos."

Report: Mark Shapiro scolded Alex Anthopoulos in their only meeting

Alex Anthopoulos is leaving the Toronto Blue Jays much to the surprise of the baseball world. A clash with new team president Mark Shapiro may be the

larrybrownsports.com

"The Jays offered Anthopoulos a contract extension and wanted him to return as GM, but he likely was hesitant to do so knowing that he wouldn’t have the final say on baseball decisions. The change in the front office structure happened when the team hired former longtime Cleveland Indians GM Mark Shapiro at the end of August to be their new president and CEO.


Anthopoulos is believed to have a more scouting-focused philosophy, while Shapiro is known for being more statistics-focused. It also sounds like their relationship got off to a rocky start during their first and only meeting, according to The Sports Network’s Rick Westhead."

Source: In their 1st & only meeting, new Jays prez Mark Shapiro scolded Alex Anthopolous & staff for trading so many top prospects this yr
— Rick Westhead (@rwesthead) October 29, 2015

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Either your post is revisionist history or you were the rare prescient person in the city because AA's departure was a surprise to everyone else.

Alex Anthopoulos won't return as Blue Jays' GM in surprising departure

Despite building a Blue Jays team that ended a 22-year postseason drought, Alex Anthopoulos will surprisingly not return to Toronto as general manager after rejecting a contract extension.

www.si.com

"
Thanks to a wave of blockbuster trades, Anthopoulos was named the Sporting News MLB Executive of the Year just hours after the news of his departure broke, and he was widely expected to return. Just two days ago, CBS Sports' Jon Heyman reported, "Alex Anthopoulos is expected to be brought back, but quietly. [Incoming team president] Mark Shapiro isn't even intending to announce it when he extends Anthopoulos."

Yeah I never said it wasn't surprising the day after it happened. We do know a little bit more about what happened back then now then we did two weeks after our season finished in 2015 though. Nothing about what I said is untrue. Just because at the time people were under the assumption that AA would be signing back with the Jays doesn't mean that was actually the case. He was never coming back on under Shapiro in the role Shapiro would have wanted him to do. Getting to my broader point though I will f***ing celebrate the day we as a fanbase can move the hell on from AA. Like shit on Shapiro/Atkins, love them, whatever. Why the discussion always seem to revert to our management from 7 years ago will always baffle me.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Either your post is revisionist history or you were the rare prescient person in the city because AA's departure was a surprise to everyone else.

Alex Anthopoulos won't return as Blue Jays' GM in surprising departure

Despite building a Blue Jays team that ended a 22-year postseason drought, Alex Anthopoulos will surprisingly not return to Toronto as general manager after rejecting a contract extension.

www.si.com

"
Thanks to a wave of blockbuster trades, Anthopoulos was named the Sporting News MLB Executive of the Year just hours after the news of his departure broke, and he was widely expected to return. Just two days ago, CBS Sports' Jon Heyman reported, "Alex Anthopoulos is expected to be brought back, but quietly. [Incoming team president] Mark Shapiro isn't even intending to announce it when he extends Anthopoulos."

Report: Mark Shapiro scolded Alex Anthopoulos in their only meeting

Alex Anthopoulos is leaving the Toronto Blue Jays much to the surprise of the baseball world. A clash with new team president Mark Shapiro may be the

larrybrownsports.com

"The Jays offered Anthopoulos a contract extension and wanted him to return as GM, but he likely was hesitant to do so knowing that he wouldn’t have the final say on baseball decisions. The change in the front office structure happened when the team hired former longtime Cleveland Indians GM Mark Shapiro at the end of August to be their new president and CEO.


Anthopoulos is believed to have a more scouting-focused philosophy, while Shapiro is known for being more statistics-focused. It also sounds like their relationship got off to a rocky start during their first and only meeting, according to The Sports Network’s Rick Westhead."

How the f*** are you going to scold a guy for being scouting based when scouting is generally what wins you championships?

It's paid off majorly for Atlanta. AA called his shot on the guys he drafted and then was also savvy enough to make the call to have then skip AA. All of which look like galaxy brain decisions given the Braves have a legitimate shot to go back to back.

That's how the Dodgers have also built a powerhouse. S tier scouting and then shipping those guys out for proven stars.

Meanwhile Shatkins apparently looked at the "stats" of Bradley Zimmer and decided "yep this guy will contribute to our championship run." And then decided two months of good pitching were enough to give Kikuchi a big contract.

 

[Kurtz]

Yeah I never said it wasn't surprising the day after it happened. We do know a little bit more about what happened back then now then we did two weeks after our season finished in 2015 though. Nothing about what I said is untrue. Just because at the time people were under the assumption that AA would be signing back with the Jays doesn't mean that was actually the case. He was never coming back on under Shapiro in the role Shapiro would have wanted him to do. Getting to my broader point though I will f***ing celebrate the day we as a fanbase can move the hell on from AA. Like shit on Shapiro/Atkins, love them, whatever. Why the discussion always seem to revert to our management from 7 years ago will always baffle me.

Personally, I think it's reasonable to move on when either this management group is fired or when they achieve success. Until then it's quite sensible to judge them for this, as they are still in charge and directly responsible for what is happening.

Anything else, and you're establishing a completely arbitrary statute of limitations on which actions of our existing management team we're allowed to judge.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Personally, I think it's reasonable to move on when either this management group is fired or when they achieve success. Until then it's quite sensible to judge them for this.

I think this management group can be judged without being some jilted lover for a decade. It's not like moving on from AA stops this management group from being held to account for failures. But AA has been gone for a long ass time and people honestly need to get the f*** over it lol.

 

[Kurtz]

I think this management group can be judged without being some jilted lover for a decade. It's not like moving on from AA stops this management group from being held to account for failures. But AA has been gone for a long ass time and people honestly need to get the f*** over it lol.

Paradoxical statement, given that driving AA out of town was probably this management's group's single biggest failure.

 

[Blitzkrug]

They're going to be judged. The media pegged the Jays to not only be a contender but a handful of them had them going to the World Series.

Suffice to say, the Jays have been nothing close to that powerhouse everyone was expecting. Some of that was definitely overhype but the fact they have to scratch and claw to stay ahead of mediocrity like the Twins and White Sox now is awful.


This season is a disappointment at best right now and a complete failure at worse if they do miss.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Paradoxical statement, given that driving AA out of town was probably this management's group's single biggest failure.

Okay you keep being the jilted lover then. I am sure he will come back to you one day. At some point like...you just need to move on.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

I am not really into passing judgement until September. Sure, I wish I enjoyed watching this season a bit more, but baseball is really swingy and f***y and I would not be surprised if we won the next 15 of 18 games.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

They're going to be judged. The media pegged the Jays to not only be a contender but a handful of them had them going to the World Series.

Suffice to say, the Jays have been nothing close to that powerhouse everyone was expecting. Some of that was definitely overhype but the fact they have to scratch and claw to stay ahead of mediocrity like the Twins and White Sox now is awful.


This season is a disappointment at best right now and a complete failure at worse if they do miss.

I mean this sounds slightly premature. The season could absolutely be more then a disappointment. If they do miss the playoffs it is an absolutely failure at all levels. They could back their way into the playoffs and then win a round or two. Season all of a sudden isn't a disappointment anymore. The team has been extremely frustrating to watch all season though.

 

[Kurtz]

Okay you keep being the jilted lover then. I am sure he will come back to you one day. At some point like...you just need to move on.

Why do you feel like your "jilted lover" insult attempt is an appropriate substitute for an argument? It's not even applicable in this instance as I'm not upset at AA.

 

[Eyedea]

How the f*** are you going to scold a guy for being scouting based when scouting is generally what wins you championships?

It's paid off majorly for Atlanta. AA called his shot on the guys he drafted and then was also savvy enough to make the call to have then skip AA. All of which look like galaxy brain decisions given the Braves have a legitimate shot to go back to back.

That's how the Dodgers have also built a powerhouse. S tier scouting and then shipping those guys out for proven stars.

Meanwhile Shatkins apparently looked at the "stats" of Bradley Zimmer and decided "yep this guy will contribute to our championship run." And then decided two months of good pitching were enough to give Kikuchi a big contract.

With all due respect I don't think Rick Westhead knows what drives either department. Everyone is statistics driven nowadays. Is it not "scouting" to find someone like Ricky Tiedemann and have all of his stuff improve the moment he gets into your system? Or signing a barrel of a kid from Mexico for $7,500 and have him join the major league club at 21 years of age, skipping AA and AAA? They've been as scouting focused as they ever have in the past.

‘Never know who’s looking’: How the Blue Jays found Alejandro Kirk

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[canucksfan]

One thing to keep in mind, up to this point, the current management group has done a good job. The team had produced well. The team was supposed to take the next step this year and hasn't done so. While it sucks, I don't think getting rid of an entire management group due to a failed year is a wise move.