Blue Jays GDT: 2022 v5 | Next: Mon, Jun 20 | @ CWS | 8:00pm ET/5:00pm PT | Berrios vs Lynn

[as Pure as Evil]

just for the stashes

i wanna see a chapman mathews face off

Ok, I was on the phone can someone explain what happened on that challenge to me?

I ask because me and a co-worker had a discussion about what might have just happened literally 2 weeks ago. What happens if a ball hits a batter, but the batter also hits the ball into fair territory?

The umpires were on the phone for long enough it didn't seem to be the easy call of ball hit batter, batter swung and missed, strike 3. It seemed to be ball hit batter, batter then hit ball, ball went into fair territory. We have to check the rulebook because that's never happened before kind of play.

short version

they challenged he was hit, he was but it was pointless as he swung prior to being hit, so instead of a ground out it turned out to a strikeout

 

[The Nemesis]

 

[Canada4Gold]

short version

they challenged he was hit, he was but it was pointless as he swung prior to being hit, so instead of a ground out it turned out to a strikeout

I need the long version. I know that HBP and swing and miss is a strike. Umpires know that, and that should have been a very quick review. What I thought might have happened. Batter swings, ball hits batter, then ball hits the bat and goes into fair territory. That is the discussion I had 2 weeks ago, what is the rule.

Swing and miss on a HBP is easy, it's a strike, well known rule. But it doesn't seem fair to call a strike when the batter who swung successfully hit the ball into play. But I'd never seen that happen before, and never expected to really. I thought that scenario would be ruled a foul ball. The ball is dead when it hits the batter so but the fact that he hit it as well makes it foul since a dead ball can't be live. If that scenario is what happened then it seems the ruling was the ball hit the batter makes the ball dead, since you can't hit a dead ball the fact he makes contact with the bat is irrelevant and it's treated as a swing an miss, he's out strike 3 instead of foul ball.

Again I didn't see exactly what happened but the length of the review makes me believe it wasn't a simple swing and miss HBP, but a rules check on what happens if it's a HBP, and swing and make contact and put the ball into play. If that was the case I don't think strike 3 is a fair ruling as it's not a swing and miss but I didn't know the rule when I brought it up in the past

I'm probably making way too big of a meal about this in a 9-0 game but I had this very rules question a couple weeks ago and I'm fascinated if that's what happened

 

[The Nemesis]

I need the long version. I know that HBP and swing and miss is a strike. Umpires know that, and that should have been a very quick review. What I thought might have happened. Batter swings, ball hits batter, then ball hits the bat and goes into fair territory. That is the discussion I had 2 weeks ago, what is the rule.

Swing and miss on a HBP is easy, it's a strike, well known rule. But it doesn't seem fair to call a strike when the batter who swung successfully hit the ball into play. But I'd never seen that happen before, and never expected to really. I thought that scenario would be ruled a foul ball. The ball is dead when it hits the batter so but the fact that he hit it as well makes it foul since a dead ball can't be live. If that scenario is what happened then it seems the ruling was the ball hit the batter makes the ball dead, since you can't hit a dead ball the fact he makes contact with the bat is irrelevant and it's treated as a swing an miss, he's out strike 3 instead of foul ball.

Again I didn't see exactly what happened but the length of the review makes me believe it wasn't a simple swing and miss HBP, but a rules check on what happens if it's a HBP, and swing and make contact and put the ball into play. If that was the case I don't think strike 3 is a fair ruling as it's not a swing and miss but I didn't know the rule when I brought it up in the past

I'm probably making way too big of a meal about this in a 9-0 game but I had this very rules question a couple weeks ago and I'm fascinated if that's what happened

A HBP while swinging is ruled a strike. You only get the HBP to take your base if they rule that you weren't swinging and were sufficiently trying to avoid getting hit if you had time to react (to prevent guys from diving in front of balls or just standing there and taking it on purpose. And like you said a HBP is also a dead ball.

The play on the field was that the ball bounced into play, was treated as live, and the batter was thrown out at 1st. The O's challenged seemingly on the intent that they would get the HBP and be awarded first base. The umpires decided that he was indeed hit by the pitch, but because he was in the process of swinging the ball is dead (and thus not in play) and it's strike 3 and the batter was out. Presumably the ball entered the field ether off hitting the batter in the hand, or it struck the batter, then ricocheted off the knob of the bat (by which point the ball was dead).

So Baltimore was correct on their challenge, but they weren't correct enough to get the outcome they were gunning for and the end result is that the Jays still get the out but the O's at least get to keep their challenge for being right (in a slightly wrong way)

 

[BertCorbeau]

Poor Merryweather .. can't get luck health-wise.

Probably an oblique .. he might be out for awhile.

 

[Canada4Gold]

A HBP while swinging is ruled a strike. You only get the HBP to take your base if they rule that you weren't swinging and were sufficiently trying to avoid getting hit if you had time to react (to prevent guys from diving in front of balls or just standing there and taking it on purpose. And like you said a HBP is also a dead ball.

The play on the field was that the ball bounced into play, was treated as live, and the batter was thrown out at 1st. The O's challenged seemingly on the intent that they would get the HBP and be awarded first base. The umpires decided that he was indeed hit by the pitch, but because he was in the process of swinging the ball is dead (and thus not in play) and it's strike 3 and the batter was out. Presumably the ball entered the field ether off hitting the batter in the hand, or it struck the batter, then ricocheted off the knob of the bat (by which point the ball was dead).

So Baltimore was correct on their challenge, but they weren't correct enough to get the outcome they were gunning for and the end result is that the Jays still get the out but the O's at least get to keep their challenge for being right (in a slightly wrong way)

This is what I saw, and it's why I'm so interested because I had this exact discussion with a co-worker literally 2 weeks ago. What are the odds such an unlikely scenario happens.

I've always thought the rule was HBP that you swing at and miss is a strike. That's a fairly well known rule. Miss being the key word. Umpires and the review booth would know that, it would have taken about a minute to review. What I think took so long was someone had to do a rules check on what happens when you get HBP but it's not a swing and miss, it's a swing and hit a dead ball.

To me it doesn't seem fair for it to be a strike. Foul ball seems fairest to me. I swung and hit the ball on a 0-2 count and it's a strikeout? Because it hit me before I hit it? I assume it's the correct ruling since it took 5 minutes someone in the review booth did a rules check. It just doesn't seem like the fairest ruling.

 

[The Nemesis]

Bo's sidearm throws scare the hell out of me.

It must be the sidearm action because Tulo's throws did the same even though he was as sure and accurate as could be. It just always looks like the ball's going to get slung 10 feet up in the stands.

 

[The Nemesis]

This is what I saw, and it's why I'm so interested because I had this exact discussion with a co-worker literally 2 weeks ago. What are the odds such an unlikely scenario happens.

I've always thought the rule was HBP that you swing at and miss is a strike. That's a fairly well known rule. Miss being the key word. Umpires and the review booth would know that, it would have taken about a minute to review. What I think took so long was someone had to do a rules check on what happens when you get HBP but it's not a swing and miss, it's a swing and hit a dead ball.

To me it doesn't seem fair for it to be a strike. Foul ball seems fairest to me. I swung and hit the ball on a 0-2 count and it's a strikeout? Because it hit me before I hit it? I assume it's the correct ruling since it took 5 minutes someone in the review booth did a rules check. It just doesn't seem like the fairest ruling.

I look at it like the 3rd strike HBP on a swing is the same as the 3rd strike foul bunt.

 

[BertCorbeau]

So this is how the Yankees have managed to do so well.

 

[The Nemesis]

Lol suck it again, Odor.

 

[The Nemesis]

bah gawd, he killed that ball. That ball had a family.

 

[Forgotusername]

Vladdy, that baseball had a family.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I look at it like the 3rd strike HBP on a swing is the same as the 3rd strike foul bunt.

It's not the HBP and swing that's unusual. It's the HBP swing and hit the ball that's unusual. If that's what happened, because I don't think I've ever seen that happen.

HBP and swing and miss is the same as any other swing.

I'm really hoping we get a clarification on what the umpires told everyone once the game is over. Regular swing and miss HBP is boring, but the review was way too long for that to be it I think.

 

[The Nemesis]

This game has everything.

 

[Anthrax442]

Another great game from Cy Manoah

 

[BertCorbeau]

Watching Vladdy mash baseballs is just a treat.

He destroyed that home run.

 

[kb]

Bo's sidearm throws scare the hell out of me.

It must be the sidearm action because Tulo's throws did the same even though he was as sure and accurate as could be. It just always looks like the ball's going to get slung 10 feet up in the stands.

10? Looks almost like 20. I prejump on the couch. Then King Kong 40' tall Vladdy magically appears for 1.1 seconds.

Did someone put a 'shroom in my herbal tea???

 

[kb]

Another great game from Cy Manoah

Muh muh Cy Manoah. Muh muh Cy Manoah. Muh muh Cy Manoah.

 

[dredeye]

You have to think Manoah is the top or very close to it for early CY consideration. He's going to be expensive to lock up long term as well.

 

[Discoverer]

This is what I saw, and it's why I'm so interested because I had this exact discussion with a co-worker literally 2 weeks ago. What are the odds such an unlikely scenario happens.

I've always thought the rule was HBP that you swing at and miss is a strike. That's a fairly well known rule. Miss being the key word. Umpires and the review booth would know that, it would have taken about a minute to review. What I think took so long was someone had to do a rules check on what happens when you get HBP but it's not a swing and miss, it's a swing and hit a dead ball.

To me it doesn't seem fair for it to be a strike. Foul ball seems fairest to me. I swung and hit the ball on a 0-2 count and it's a strikeout? Because it hit me before I hit it? I assume it's the correct ruling since it took 5 minutes someone in the review booth did a rules check. It just doesn't seem like the fairest ruling.

I think it makes the most sense the way it is. The instant the ball hits the batter, it's dead. If it hits the bat after (even the tiniest fraction of a second after) it's irrelevant because the ball was already dead. So the only options are he didn't swing and it's a hit by pitch or he swung and it's a strike.

 

[Beaumaris]

Kirk is so good at hitting and he's only 23

Has age actually have anything to do with anything.

 

[Beaumaris]

Poor Merryweather .. can't get luck health-wise.

Probably an oblique .. he might be out for awhile.

No great loss.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don't think I've ever seen a ball bust through a glove like that. Crazy.

Beast of a HR by Vladdy though.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I think it makes the most sense the way it is. The instant the ball hits the batter, it's dead. If it hits the bat after (even the tiniest fraction of a second after) it's irrelevant because the ball was already dead. So the only options are he didn't swing and it's a hit by pitch or he swung and it's a strike.

Yeah I understand why the ruling is that way it just seems counterintuitive. If you hit a ball that doesn't deflect off you foul with 2 strikes it's not strike 3, but hitting a ball that did deflect off you is more difficult but it is strike 3. You're swing to try to hit the ball, do succeed at hitting it but that doesn't matter anymore because it's dead.

Some guy on reddit brought up an interesting point. The moment the ball hits the batter the ball and play is dead. That means things that take place after ball/player contact don't matter. Lets say it's a fastball and the player's swing is fairly late because he's expecting offspeed. When the ball hits him his bat hasn't broken the plane therefore he hasn't yet officially swung. Does him following through with the swing afterwards count since the play is dead by that point? I would assume yes since the swing started when the play was live but it's an interesting question.

If anyone cares another interesting rules question my co-worker and I were discussing is on a sac fly when can a player officially tag up? When the ball is initially contacted by the fielder, or when it's secured and the out is recorded? Normally that's essentially at the same time, but imagine the fielder bobbles the fly ball and it takes him 2 seconds to actually catch it. Can the runner tag up as soon as contact is made or when the ball is secured? This question mainly came up for a bottom of the 9th, tie game runner on 3rd 1 out long fly ball situation. If the fielder catches it it's game over, runner tags up on the sac fly. If the fielder drops it it's game over runner scores on a hit or error. If the fielder intentionally bobbles it as he's moving towards the infield, or smacks it with his glove on the fly to another fielder, etc, etc is that a possible loophole to avoid the run scoring in a lose lose situation? Even if it's the initial touching of the ball that allows the tag up the runner might be confused and not know the rule and delay running, or start and go back after the bobble.

 

[theaub]

Answer to the latter question is when it first touches any part of the fielder. Had to toss a coach in OBA's once for that one...