Blue Jays GDT: 2022 v4 | Next: Sun, May 29 | @ LAA | 4:00pm ET/1:00pm PT | Berrios vs Sandoval

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didn't know you could push guys off the bag dude straight up pushed espinal a good 4 inches during the tag

You can't, it's a judgement call from the ump. There I think Espinal's momentum was taking him off the base anyway. Did the infielder's tag help with that? Probably, but Espinal came like 4 or 5 inches off, I think he was coming off anyway
 
Cause he speaks Spanish and stuff. This front office has done a lot of good things, but I don't get why they extended Charlie (other than being able to communicate with the Spanish speaking players)
He should be nothing more than a bench coach
 
Watching the Jays this season, I’ve come to an undeniable conclusion…I can hit better than Zimmer. This guy is so lost at the plate it’s kinda sad.
 
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I see Phelps is in not sure what the hype is with him. Thornton and him are very sketchy bull pen arms in my opinion. And Charlie seems to like them both.
 
What is the logic of bringing phelps in. If memory serves me he has not been good and was not good last night.

I see Phelps is in not sure what the hype is with him. Thornton and him are very sketchy bull pen arms in my opinion. And Charlie seems to like them both.

Another run charged to Phelps but I'm sure I will see him again in a close game.

You seem to have some weird obsession with Phelps. He's been fine. Based on ERA entering tonight he's been the 4th best reliever of those who've had more than 2 appearances with a 2.45 ERA behind Romano, Mayza and Cimber. Even after giving up that run he's still 4th. We're in the 2nd game of a double header behind by 2 in the 5th. You're not using any of your best arms in this spot.
 
You seem to have some weird obsession with Phelps. He's been fine. Based on ERA entering tonight he's been the 4th best reliever of those who've had more than 2 appearances with a 2.45 ERA behind Romano, Mayza and Cimber. Even after giving up that run he's still 4th. We're in the 2nd game of a double header behind by 2 in the 5th. You're not using any of your best arms in this spot.
I don't have some weird obsession just made a post tonight I don't trust him in tight games right now. You can slant this anyway you want but he has not been steady lately and 4th best bullpen arm does not say much. If he proves me wrong soon I will concede but he's been unreliable in tight games lately.
 
I don't have some weird obsession just made a post tonight I don't trust him in tight games right now. You can slant this anyway you want but he has not been steady and 4th best bullpen arm does not say much. If he proves me wrong soon I will concede but he's been unreliable in tight games lately.

You made the a similar post the last time he came into a game which is why I made the comment. That time you included how he hasn't been good which was just incorrect. A 2.45 ERA is quite good from the pen. You seem to question why he's coming into games. Who would you have used in the 5th inning of a game you're down 2 on thw 2nd half of a back to back. Romano, Mayza, Cimber, and Garcia should be off limits in that spot. Richards might have been an option. I expected Borucki or Lawrence to try to eat innings just because this lower leverage spot is where you tend to get work for your lesser arms. But that seemed like a completely reasonable spot to bring in your 4th through 8th best relievers so it was a strange comment to me.
 
You made the a similar post the last time he came into a game which is why I made the comment. That time you included how he hasn't been good which was just incorrect. A 2.45 ERA is quite good from the pen. You seem to question why he's coming into games. Who would you have used in the 5th inning of a game you're down 2 on thw 2nd half of a back to back. Romano, Mayza, Cimber, and Garcia should be off limits in that spot. Richards might have been an option. I expected Borucki or Lawrence to try to eat innings just because this lower leverage spot is where you tend to get work for your lesser arms. But that seemed like a completely reasonable spot to bring in your 4th through 8th best relievers so it was a strange comment to me.
I am glad you keep tabs on posts. I have mentioned a few times lately he has struggled in close games. You can quote the era over and over but lately he has gave up runs in tight close games and tigh and he did again tonight...
 
I am glad you keep tabs on posts. I have mentioned a few times lately he has struggled in close games. You can quote the era over and over but lately he has gave up runs in tight close games and tigh and he did again tonight...

He's given up 4 runs this season. Based on fangraphs splits and leverage index 3 of them were low leverage when he entered the game. The 4th was a 1 run lead in the 7th inning against Houston 2 weeks ago. Not sure 1 time counts as over and over but go ahead.

Again, who would you have brought into this game in that spot? Because Phelps is pretty close to the best pitcher that would be a reasonable option. Borucki sucked, Lawrence sucked. Richards would have probably been the other option.
 
He's given up 4 runs this season. Based on fangraphs splits and leverage index 3 of them were low leverage when he entered the game. The 4th was a 1 run lead in the 7th inning against Houston 2 weeks ago. Not sure 1 time counts as over and over but go ahead.

Again, who would you have brought into this game in that spot? Because Phelps is pretty close to the best pitcher that would be a reasonable option. Borucki sucked, Lawrence sucked. Richards would have probably been the other option.
I didn't watch the first game entirely but I have been very happy with mayza. If your telling me there's nobody better then Phelps then that does not speak well to the bull pen depth. Again you can crusade for Phelps but I wasn't wrong he gave up another run in a tight game. And let me bold this his last few appearances in close games he has struggled and not been reliable

So would you rather me change this subject to the bull pen in general is struggling? Because I'm fine with that to. It did great at the start but they were performing above there head.

But keep crusading let's see how well Phelps continues to do and you can either tell me I'm wrong over and over or your wrong.
 
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I didn't watch the first game entirely but I have been very happy with mayza and cimber. If your telling me there's nobody better then Phelps then that does not speak well to the bull pen depth. Again you can crusade for Phelps but I wasn't wrong he gave up another run in a tight game. And let me bold this his last few appearances in close games he has struggled.

Technically this was a close game being behind 2 but it was a low leverage spot when he entered(became medium leverage by the time he gave up the run). The entire Jays season has been close games outside of the last few innings of a couple of them. You can't only use your best 3 or 4 relievers everytime that a game is within 2 runs. Usually you save them for when you're ahead by 1 or 2, or late in a close game. This doesn't qualify. If Montoyo put any of Romano, Cimber, Mayza or Garcia in here he rightly should be have criticized for it. The Jays win probability when Phelps entered the game was 17.4%. It was neither a game the Jays were likely to win, nor was it a late in a close game. Not a spot you use any of your best relievers in. Ideally you have quality middle leverage guys you can bring in to hold the other team off the board long enough to make it a spot where you have a good enough chance to win to make using your best guys worth it. That's what Phelps and Richards are for. This is the exact spot you'd use them.

I would say Phelps is probably either the 5th or 6th best reliever on the team depending on how one views him and Richards. Merryweather generally should be in that conversation as well but he's been bad and just got sent down(I would have demoted Thornton). Down 2 in the 5th innings is the right spot to use those guys. You don't waste your best arms when you only have a 17% chance to win.

Are you saying you would have brought Mayza or Cimber into the game down 2 in the 5th?
 
Yes I would have brought cimber in. All that happened is a 2 run lead went to a 3 run lead. Now we're talking hindsight. Do you only bring those guys in when your ahead or try to keep the game close and give yourself a chance? Thursday's game they came back and fell a run short. Manoah is going tomorrow... I expect a lengthy outing. First game was a blowout today as well.

Look I am on my phone I can't keep arguing I am clearly not a fan of Phelps the last few outings. Let's see how he does. Either your right and you can win this debate or I am and he continues to be unreliable. I need to log off. Let's see who is right and how this plays out. If Phelps is the best we can do in these situations it does not bode well imo unless he gets back on track.
 
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Yes I would have brought cimber in. All that happened is a 2 run lead went to a 3 run lead. Now we're talking hindsight. Do you only bring those guys in when your ahead or try to keep the game close and give yourself a chance? Thursday's game they came back and fell a run short. Manoah is going tomorrow... I expect a lengthy outing.

Look I am on my phone I can't keep arguing I am clearly not a fan of Phelps the last few outings. Let's see how he does. Either your right and you can win this debate or I am and he continues to be unreliable. I need to log off. Let's see who is right and how this plays out. If Phelps is the best we can do in these situations it does not bode well imo unless he gets back on track.

Generally Cimber, Garcia, Romano and Mayza only go 1 inning so lets say best case scenario your use them all to try to go all out and win this game, the offense scores 3 runs, you're up 5-4 what do you do in the 9th? Montoyo probably goes to Phelps then and we're even more frustrated when he gives up a run.

You only have so many innings from your best arms, even with the aggressive assumption you can use them twice every 3 days in a small sample that's 8 innings every 3 days from your best guys, not enough to cover the final 3 innings of 3 consecutive games. Unless you're a team like the Reds where being down 2 in the 5th is one of your better chances to win a game those 8 innings are going to be more useful elsewhere. Either tied, or ahead small any point in the game or behind small very late.

Given we have an off day Monday, had we got to the 7th inning down 1 or 2 then sure maybe you got to one of the best 4 arms, knowing if you need them all tomorrow you can still rest them Monday regardless. But I'm never using one of my best 4 guys in the 5th inning when I'm losing. Your 5th best available arm is going to have to throw an inning anyway, might as well see if he can get a scoreless inning now than go through using all your best arms only for them to blow it later, or going through using all your best arms only to lose anyway because the offense didn't score.
 
Generally Cimber, Garcia, Romano and Mayza only go 1 inning so lets say best case scenario your use them all to try to go all out and win this game, the offense scores 3 runs, you're up 5-4 what do you do in the 9th? Montoyo probably goes to Phelps then and we're even more frustrated when he gives up a run.

You only have so many innings from your best arms, even with the aggressive assumption you can use them twice every 3 days in a small sample that's 8 innings every 3 days from your best guys, not enough to cover the final 3 innings of 3 consecutive games. Unless you're a team like the Reds where being down 2 in the 5th is one of your better chances to win a game those 8 innings are going to be more useful elsewhere. Either tied, or ahead small any point in the game or behind small very late.

Given we have an off day Monday, had we got to the 7th inning down 1 or 2 then sure maybe you got to one of the best 4 arms, knowing if you need them all tomorrow you can still rest them Monday regardless. But I'm never using one of my best 4 guys in the 5th inning when I'm losing. Your 5th best available arm is going to have to throw an inning anyway, might as well see if he can get a scoreless inning now than go through using all your best arms only for them to blow it later, or going through using all your best arms only to lose anyway because the offense didn't score.
Im not arguing anymore. Lets see who is right and who is wrong. Either phelps proves you correct as a reliable bull pen arm, and maintains that era you keep quoting (His era is now 3.18 as a reliever and his last 7 game his era is 4.26! which is what i am getting at!), or i am right and he is someone who is struggling in close games lately and his era continues to sink from how lucky we were at the start of the season. I am sure nobody wants to keep reading this.

I will be here to discuss with you as long as you want. But for now lets move on from this david phelps crusade and find out as the season progresses. I made my points, if you dont agree so be it. If he does fine I will be in this thread and you can feel free to call me out and maintain david phelps integrity. He let another run in tonight and turned a 2 run game into 3, similar to the Houston game. I hope he proves me wrong. Were all jays fans, nobody is needing a crusade to try to defend them. We all want this team to win. But i also need to be realistic wtih what I am watching and the last few games that were still within reach, he brought them further out of reach.
 
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He needs to just be released at this point. He’s just useless

He has a WAR of -0.4 and Tapia has a negative 0.5 WAR. These guys have been brutal. If you are going to take a chance on these types of players it better work out. It's not like two-three years ago when the Jays could be patient with a reclamation project.
 
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I was optimistic we would see Vladdy batting second by this point of the season.

Springer
Vlad
Teo
Bo

makes more sense.


At this point, I think it's a reasonable guess that Vladdy has straight up told Montoyo that he wants to bat third and not second. If Vladdy truly feels more comfortable at 3 than at 2, you kind of have to accommodate him even if results in a few less ABs per season.
 
At this point, I think it's a reasonable guess that Vladdy has straight up told Montoyo that he wants to bat third and not second. If Vladdy truly feels more comfortable at 3 than at 2, you kind of have to accommodate him even if results in a few less ABs per season.

That's my thinking as well but you'd think someone would be able to convince him to bat second. The batting order changes every inning except the first.
 
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