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tmlms13
Registered User
Have you ever actually looked up Jeter's defensive stats?
He wasn't for a couple years early in his career in the late 1990s.
But for the last 15 years of his career he was one of the worst defensive shortstops in baseball, far worse than Bichette.
But he was the opposite of Bichette - people don't notice when you have ponderous range but make outs on the balls you get to, but they do notice when you have very good range but an erratic throwing arm.
The Nemesis
Semper Tyrannus
Yes. He was.
10 Most Overrated Defenders in Baseball History
The hardest skill to measure is also the easiest to overrate. Such is the way of defense and baseball. We know defense matters...
Why is Derek Jeter considered to be a bad defender by many analysts despite winning 5 gold gloves?
Answer (1 of 10): Gold gloves, especially in that era, were a travesty. They actually gave Palmiero a gold glove one year he only played 28 games at first, his OWN MANAGER. Preferred David Segui's glove. Palmiero played DH. Also, if gold gloves count,you are calling Jeter a very selfish me-first...
As We Remember Derek Jeter, Don't Forget His Horrid Defense
This week is dedicated to remembering New York Yankees legend Derek Jeter. Call me a party pooper, but it's time to pay tribute to his only fault.
elitesportsny.com
» The Tragedy of Derek Jeter's Defense
grantland.com
A few notes on Derek Jeter's defense
This come up in our Spreecast from today on Derek Jeter's retirement, somebody insisting we point out that Jeter cost his team more runs on defense than any player in history.
Shhh, don’t tell a Yankees fan but Derek Jeter was probably overrated
John Romano | The Yankees shortstop might join former teammate Mariano Rivera as the only unanimous Hall of Fame selections, but his defensive abilities left a lot to be desired.
www.tampabay.com
Jeter's reputation for defensive prowess mostly boiled down to
1) a lack of errors, which was mostly spurred by his range preventing him from getting to the truly difficult balls that would be more likely to produce errors.
2) the gold gloves, which he got entirely in his 30s after he had cemented a reputation. And historically it's well known that gold gloves were often given out more on reputation than actual performance (Rafael Palmeiro famously won a gold glove at 1st in 1999. He also was named the DH of the year that same year after starting 128 games as a DH vs just 28 as a 1B)
3) He occasionally made flashy plays that people figured must be indicative of high defensive prowess (my favorite being the infamous dive-into-the-stands play which is really just him tracking down a fly ball in foul territory and then leaping into the seats because he can't stop himself in the next 10-15 feet. It's not like that time Josh Donaldson actually leapt into the seats to make the catch)
4) He was a popular player on a popular team that earned the adoration of baseball people, who would then universally sing his praises and give him passes on the eye-test because they loved him and not because he was actually really good at defence.
5) In the grand scheme of things he was still probably an acceptable defender on the whole, and his bat was way, way, waaaaay more than good enough to offset it (and then some. And by 'some' I mean 'a lot'), but the biggest issue is that he was a mediocre-to-poor defender at the most defensively important and difficult position in baseball, which makes things look worse in comparison. He almost certainly should've moved to 3rd when the Yankees acquired Alex Rodriguez, but noted-superior-leader Derek Jeter refused to do that, and refused to move off short to 2nd, 3rd, or the outfield in the late stages of his career when he was exceptionally awful, declaring that he was a shortstop and he wasn't going to play another position.
Derek Jeter was a great player who was a bad defender. The two things can coexist.
tmlms13
Registered User
I thought the Jeter sucks on defense was fairly common knowledge now. I didn't realize people still thought he was good. It's why Gold Gloves are probably the most pointless award in sports.
I just hope that Bichette's ego isn't so big that he'd refuse to move if the Jays got someone who was clearly better.
I just hope that Bichette's ego isn't so big that he'd refuse to move if the Jays got someone who was clearly better.
EpochLink
Canucks and Jets fan
Earn it? I don't think a single honest to God challenge pitch was thrown. Phelps threw 7 pitches and none of them crossed the plate. You say pitching safe is throwing it three feet off the plate but that's just not the reality these days. Breaking pitches nibbling the edges or hard cut fastballs on the hands. Being "perfect". Only a threat when the guy you're facing thinks there's a chance you'll try to sneak a fastball by him.
Easy walks for guys like Judge. Counts were close because he expanded the strike zone early to try and force one out, as soon as he tightened up he was as good as walked.
EpochLink
Canucks and Jets fan
stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
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thehockeysong
Registered User
- Nov 1, 2009
- 1,373
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Yes. He was.
10 Most Overrated Defenders in Baseball History
The hardest skill to measure is also the easiest to overrate. Such is the way of defense and baseball. We know defense matters...bleacherreport.com
Why is Derek Jeter considered to be a bad defender by many analysts despite winning 5 gold gloves?
Answer (1 of 10): Gold gloves, especially in that era, were a travesty. They actually gave Palmiero a gold glove one year he only played 28 games at first, his OWN MANAGER. Preferred David Segui's glove. Palmiero played DH. Also, if gold gloves count,you are calling Jeter a very selfish me-first...www.quora.com
As We Remember Derek Jeter, Don't Forget His Horrid Defense
This week is dedicated to remembering New York Yankees legend Derek Jeter. Call me a party pooper, but it's time to pay tribute to his only fault.
» The Tragedy of Derek Jeter's Defense
A few notes on Derek Jeter's defense
This come up in our Spreecast from today on Derek Jeter's retirement, somebody insisting we point out that Jeter cost his team more runs on defense than any player in history.www.espn.com
Shhh, don’t tell a Yankees fan but Derek Jeter was probably overrated
John Romano | The Yankees shortstop might join former teammate Mariano Rivera as the only unanimous Hall of Fame selections, but his defensive abilities left a lot to be desired.
Jeter's reputation for defensive prowess mostly boiled down to
1) a lack of errors, which was mostly spurred by his range preventing him from getting to the truly difficult balls that would be more likely to produce errors.
2) the gold gloves, which he got entirely in his 30s after he had cemented a reputation. And historically it's well known that gold gloves were often given out more on reputation than actual performance (Rafael Palmeiro famously won a gold glove at 1st in 1999. He also was named the DH of the year that same year after starting 128 games as a DH vs just 28 as a 1B)
3) He occasionally made flashy plays that people figured must be indicative of high defensive prowess (my favorite being the infamous dive-into-the-stands play which is really just him tracking down a fly ball in foul territory and then leaping into the seats because he can't stop himself in the next 10-15 feet. It's not like that time Josh Donaldson actually leapt into the seats to make the catch)
4) He was a popular player on a popular team that earned the adoration of baseball people, who would then universally sing his praises and give him passes on the eye-test because they loved him and not because he was actually really good at defence.
5) In the grand scheme of things he was still probably an acceptable defender on the whole, and his bat was way, way, waaaaay more than good enough to offset it (and then some. And by 'some' I mean 'a lot'), but the biggest issue is that he was a mediocre-to-poor defender at the most defensively important and difficult position in baseball, which makes things look worse in comparison. He almost certainly should've moved to 3rd when the Yankees acquired Alex Rodriguez, but noted-superior-leader Derek Jeter refused to do that, and refused to move off short to 2nd, 3rd, or the outfield in the late stages of his career when he was exceptionally awful, declaring that he was a shortstop and he wasn't going to play another position.
Derek Jeter was a great player who was a bad defender. The two things can coexist.
Waiting for a reply to this wall of evidence along the lines of "I know what I saw"
kb
Registered User
- Aug 28, 2009
- 15,356
- 22,019
That's all I get when reading all the other threads on this board.
I'm assuming most in braille.
If I had to bet I would say eventually he moves to 2B. Espinal as SS and Bichette at 2B would probably make Espinal have a higher WAR as SS because it is a harder position to defend and Bichette would probably have an increase in WAR at 2B as he would make less errors. If we didn't have Espinal who is capable of being 2-3 WAR SS I wouldn't suggest it but Espinal is good and he's under control.
The Nemesis
Semper Tyrannus
He was at a full count in EVERY SINGLE AT BAT. They literally got 2 strikes out of him every single time and in a couple of cases he was fouling pitches off.
but no, let's just heave one over the plate to the guy that's looking to win the triple crown, that has like 20 more HRs than his nearest threat, that is monumentally much more of a threat offensively than anyone else in the league right now to the point that it's comical. He's lapping the field in offensive performance at the moment. He could theoretically just decide tomorrow morning that he's not going to play baseball for the rest of the season and instead commit himself to crafting a zen rock garden in Monument Park at Yankee Stadium in front of Babe Ruth's plaque and he would still almost certainly win the MVP (even though it should probably be closer than it will be because "but the Angels won't make the playoffs" crowd of voters won't give rightful votes to Ohtani for doing something equally as stupid-crazy-good as what Judge is doing just in a different way and on a crap team which isn't his fault). Groove one in there for the K, right? What's the worst that could happen?
Let's go blow-by-blow
1st inning:
Judge leads off the game, things get to 1-2 before Berrios puts a couple outside. Then he gets back over the plate and Judge hits a liner to Chapman for the out.
3rd Inning
With the game 1-0 Jays and a runner on 1st, Berrios was certainly looking to a) not give him easy contact to move the runner over (or score him) and b) work down with sinkers and changeups (I don't know his preferred grip/action, but his change tends to sink and fade like a circle change) in an attempt to induce a ground ball. He got things to 2-2 before Judge laid off the last 2 for the walk.
5th inning:
Still facing Berrios, everything was right close to the plate or came in teasing close to the plate (pitches 2, 3, and 4 were a sinker, curve, and changeup respectively). The final pitch for the walk was a no-hope sinker that could've been better, but this could've been an enticing at-bat. It wasn't.
6th inning:
Now facing Pop, there were 4 pitches right near the zone that generated a swinging strike and 3 foul balls. Plus pitches 3, 5, and 8 were all 98mph sinkers with hard drop to try and get grounders or swing-and-miss and were over the plate but low (because they're sinkers and a sinker up into the zone is often just a hanging fastball). Judge would later be forced out at 3rd to end the inning.
8th inning
Ok, fine, this one gets messy with 5, 6 and 7 all high and outside. They were mostly cutters so I guess he was trying to get him to expand and chase and though it did work once, that wasn't enough.
I'll bet if they had gone for the K and he deposited it in the seats for a 2-run HR you'd probably be angry at them for giving him a pitch to hit.
trellaine201
Registered User
5-0 Texas. I would bet were playing Tampa in the first round. Just a matter of who gets home field?
Advanced defensive stats only go back to 2002, but Bo's DRS would still only be the 5th worst of Jeter's career.
tmlms13
Registered User
It's like Jeff O'Neill & Bryan Hayes vs Jonas Seigel & Mark Masters on Overdrive
Team Eye Test vs Team Corsi
Da Cool Rula
Registered User
I could be wrong but I seem to recall, like many young SS, Tony Fernandez, in the beginning had his issues too. Tough position takes longer for some.
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Suntouchable13
Registered User
Yea, I know. But it’s just damn maddening. Obviously, if we were 20 games out it would be more tolerable and we can say “oh he is just learning” but when this happens when you’re in a race it sucks. Hopefully he gets better. Also, can’t have those same errant throws in a playoff game. That’s what I am afraid of, one bad throw could cost a series or something.
tmlms13
Registered User
Tony's best years defensively by far were in Toronto and that was his early-mid 20's.
Tufted Titmouse
13 Cups.
- Apr 5, 2022
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My favourite memory of Jeter is when he barely threw out Ortiz in 2004 with his "miracle jump throw" move, and everyone fawned over it.
Meanwhile, any decent MLB calibre SS sets their feet and throws Ortiz out by 10 feet.
Remember when people used to think Snider was a great OF because he'd make superman catches on routine flyballs? lol.
Meanwhile, any decent MLB calibre SS sets their feet and throws Ortiz out by 10 feet.
Remember when people used to think Snider was a great OF because he'd make superman catches on routine flyballs? lol.
I am a big Bo supporter, but I am not sure he just has issues at this point. I am not 100% he has the arm to stay at SS. I have no issues with keeping him there in the short term, but the question mark will follow him towards his contract years.
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