Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part II

[Sharksfan66]

1. Sure with Karlsson over Marleau but Jumbo was better (by a lot) than Matthews right now.
2. There is no way Bordeleau belongs in that group. Bordeleau isn’t an NHL player now and probably never will be. You claim Eklund might break out. What does that look like? He’d have to be at least a 60 point scorer to make your claim true and even as one of Eklund’s biggest fans thats a whole lot to ask of a rookie.
3. Our bottom 6 might have a lot of players but they are all pretty bad.
4. Our D is absolute garbage right now. It’s Karlsson and a bunch of at best bottom pairing guys if not guys who shouldn’t even be regulars in the lineup.
5. Doesn’t matter about the rest if we are still playing Kahkonen in net who is not an NHL goalie.
6. Our prospects might be okay (ish) now but only Eklund and Thrun might have an impact in the NHL this season. The rest are not ready to be more than replacement level players

I understand wanting to be optimistic but even 3 Matthews level players wouldn’t make this team a playoff team. Their defense is so bad and their goaltending is somehow worse.

Edit: Sorry, my original response was way too long. Here's a way shorter version: I don't think I'm being optimistic about the current team so much as I'm being pessimistic about how bad the 05-06 team was before Jumbo arrived. Watching Sharks games back then felt worse than it did this past season for me. (But no, I don't feel optimistic today, hence why I'd love to see them try something crazy like this)

That said, I realized while responding to you that I forgot about Joe freekin' Pavelski
He's maybe the one piece I don't think the current Sharks team could account for (without picking at 4OA). But aside from Pavs, I don't think the two teams are as far apart as you think.

 

[Sharksfan66]

I think it's fair to say that 05-06 was probably very different time with how the game was played all around, I didn't watch back then but someone with more information from that time could tell me if I'm totally wrong. The league is much more harder and faster nowadays, that one player isn't probably enough to take a team to a playoff run or even a cup run.

Not gonna take anything away from Matthews though. I liked your idea in a way that it brings conversation about if one player could change the route of this SJ team, I would like to think that it's possible but we saw a 100-point defencemen just bring us to the 4th last place.

I think it's so much more about depth now and having couple of blue chip prospects on their elc in the mix.

Don't get me wrong, I love the story of Joe Thornton and it was beautiful time for this team.

Dang, I didn't think about this until you said it but ya, the game was different in 05-06. Closer to the NBA today, where a couple of stars could drive a team (at least through the regular season, I would argue playoff play hasn't changed much and this is where the lack of depth always hurt the Sharks).

As much as I don't want to admit it, I think you're right. That was a beautiful time for the team, but the times have changed. Time to move on and hope we can build a winner for today's league around 4OA!

 

[Sharksfan66]

This is revisionist history. In the years before the lockout, the Sharks made the playoffs six out of seven seasons, albeit as a marginal playoff team, won four playoff series, and advanced to the WCF in 2004. Yes, the team hit a rough patch in the first months of the 05-06 season, but Thornton was added to a solid playoff team. The current version is not.

Remember Doug Wilson inherited a solid team; Mike Grier got a dumpster fire.

The Sharks also had Selanne, Ricci, Korky, & Damphousse on those teams. All of whom were gone post-lockout.

I really think the 05-06 team was worse than many of us are remembering.

 

[Jargon]

The Sharks also had Selanne, Ricci, Korky, & Damphousse on those teams. All of whom were gone post-lockout.

I really think the 05-06 team was worse than many of us are remembering.

I remember watching those games and like for the majority of the wins, it’d be Cheechoo putting up 2 goals, Marleau chipping in, and Joe having 3-4 assists a game. We won on the strength of 3 players and a very good goalie in Nabby.

If we had prime Nabby now, I’d say we’d be a lot closer to the playoffs than to the 1st overall pick.

 

[Shark in Hockeytown]

The Sharks also had Selanne, Ricci, Korky, & Damphousse on those teams. All of whom were gone post-lockout.

I really think the 05-06 team was worse than many of us are remembering.

No question that the 05-06 team took off after the Thornton trade. But it was miles better than the current team.

Forwards: Cheechoo, Clowe, Ekman, Goc, Marleau, McCauley, Michalek, Sturm (
Dmen: Carle, Davison, Ehrhoff, Gorges, Hannah, Murray, Stuart, Vlasic
Goalie: Nabokov, Toskala

This is noticeably better and younger collection of talent than the current team, whose best players are in their 30s.

 

[Barrie22]

No question that the 05-06 team took off after the Thornton trade. But it was miles better than the current team.

Forwards: Cheechoo, Clowe, Ekman, Goc, Marleau, McCauley, Michalek, Sturm (
Dmen: Carle, Davison, Ehrhoff, Gorges, Hannah, Murray, Stuart, Vlasic
Goalie: Nabokov, Toskala

This is noticeably better and younger collection of talent than the current team, whose best players are in their 30s.

Vlasic was not drafted yet, clowe was a rookie who was garbage, carle did not arrive until the end of the season. Murray was not the rock he was in his rookie season which also happened after the thirnton trade and closer to the end of the season then the beginning.

That team when thornton arrived had won as much as it did because of Marleau and Cheech to begin the season.

 

[Sharksfan66]

Vlasic was not drafted yet, clowe was a rookie who was garbage, carle did not arrive until the end of the season. Murray was not the rock he was in his rookie season which also happened after the thirnton trade and closer to the end of the season then the beginning.

That team when thornton arrived had won as much as it did because of Marleau and Cheech to begin the season.

This is correct.

To add a few more...Georges didn't become anything worth writing home about until after he was traded. Ehrhoff couldn't hit the net back then to save his life. Davison was...well Davison. And I don't recall 05-06 Hannan having anything on 22-23 Vlasic.

You could argue Clowe, Georges, & Ehrhoff all became something but then again so could Gushchin, Ferraro, & Thrun. As it was, the 05-06 was not seen as some team stacked with young talent, poised to break out (nor do I think it should have been).

 

[Hodge]

No question that the 05-06 team took off after the Thornton trade. But it was miles better than the current team.

Forwards: Cheechoo, Clowe, Ekman, Goc, Marleau, McCauley, Michalek, Sturm (
Dmen: Carle, Davison, Ehrhoff, Gorges, Hannah, Murray, Stuart, Vlasic
Goalie: Nabokov, Toskala

This is noticeably better and younger collection of talent than the current team, whose best players are in their 30s.

Tom Preissing was really good that season too.

 

[Shark in Hockeytown]

Vlasic was not drafted yet, clowe was a rookie who was garbage, carle did not arrive until the end of the season. Murray was not the rock he was in his rookie season which also happened after the thirnton trade and closer to the end of the season then the beginning.

That team when thornton arrived had won as much as it did because of Marleau and Cheech to begin the season.

My point is just that the 05-06 roster had a lot more potential than the current roster (Vlasic was drafted in 05). You are right that many of these players were not established yet. It would be great if a bunch of the current prospects turn out as well as this group did.

The current team is not going to be transformed by adding one superstar. In fact, they have one in Karlsson.

 

[Jargon]

3 more seasons of cup final appearances and they don't even pass it. They would need to win 3 straight cups to pass the 11 round wins.

This is incorrect, you are being wildly negative. They merely have to get to the finals 3 times and win twice.

 

[Hodge]

Biggest difference is that at the time of the Thornton trade the Sharks were loaded with good players of Thornton's age or younger like Marleau, Cheechoo, Michalek, Bernier, Goc and Ehrhoff with Clowe, Carle, Pavelski, Gorges, Murray and Vlasic coming up through the system. Who do the Sharks currently have in their entire organization who is Matthews age or younger and projects to be anywhere near as good as those players from 2005? Eklund, arguably Ferraro and maybe Thrun, Mukhamadullin and Bystedt someday? Completely different situation.

 

[Jargon]

Biggest difference is that at the time of the Thornton trade the Sharks were loaded with good players of Thornton's age or younger like Marleau, Cheechoo, Michalek, Bernier, Goc and Ehrhoff with Clowe, Carle, Pavelski, Gorges, Murray and Vlasic coming up through the system. Who do the Sharks currently have in their entire organization who is Matthews age or younger and projects to be anywhere near as good as those players from 2005? Eklund, arguably Ferraro and maybe Thrun, Mukhamadullin and Bystedt someday? Completely different situation.

Yeah, we’re roughly 2-3 years (depending on Karlsson trade, FA markets, etc) where a Matthews-level player does what a Joe Thornton did for us back then. Current Sharks team is in year 1 of the rebuild starting this summer (this last year was year 0 - Grier getting his footing and trying to undo as much damage as possible).

 

[Hodge]

Yeah, we’re roughly 2-3 years (depending on Karlsson trade, FA markets, etc) where a Matthews-level player does what a Joe Thornton did for us back then. Current Sharks team is in year 1 of the rebuild starting this summer (this last year was year 0 - Grier getting his footing and trying to undo as much damage as possible).

2-3 would be great but realistically I think it will be much longer than that. Looking at that list of players from 2005, if Eklund becomes a similar level player to Michalek, Ferraro becomes Gorges, Thrun is Murray, Mukh is Ehrhoff and Bystedt is Goc, we still need to find players on the level of Marleau (hopefully this is our 4th OA), Cheechoo, Bernier, Carle, Pavelski and Vlasic through the draft. That probably requires at least 3-4 more years of lottery picks and getting lucky a few times in later rounds.

 

[Jargon]

Cheechoo - Guschin

2-3 would be great but realistically I think it will be much longer than that. Looking at that list of players from 2005, if Eklund becomes a similar level player to Michalek, Ferraro becomes Gorges, Thrun is Murray, Mukh is Ehrhoff and Bystedt is Goc, we still need to find players on the level of Marleau (hopefully this is our 4th OA), Cheechoo, Bernier, Carle, Pavelski and Vlasic through the draft. That probably requires at least 3-4 more years of lottery picks and getting lucky a few times in later rounds.

Yeah, though some of those guys are gettable in FA and trade too.

I’d also say Barabanov = Bernier, and hopefully Havelid can be Carle-level. I pray that Guschin becomes a Cheechoo but obviously a tall task.

Our next two drafts need to net us a Vlasic and a Pavelski.

That said, I’d rather not compare us to that team because they were fine but not enough, ultimately.

My hope is that if we get a 1C this draft and a 1D next draft, our outlook becomes much cheerier much faster. A team with Carlsson/Smith - Hertl - Bystedt is going to be pretty solid, if the prospects develop how they should. We’ll have some great wingers and can get some in FA.

The defense is really the issue - if we can get that 1D next year, I think, again, the team starts looking really nicely balanced.

Oh, also we need an actual goalie who can stop pucks and stuff.

…so yeah, 2-3 years is optimistic. A lot has to go right.

 

[Hodge]

Cheechoo - Guschin


Yeah, though some of those guys are gettable in FA and trade too.

I’d also say Barabanov = Bernier, and hopefully Havelid can be Carle-level. I pray that Guschin becomes a Cheechoo but obviously a tall task.

Our next two drafts need to net us a Vlasic and a Pavelski.

That said, I’d rather not compare us to that team because they were fine but not enough, ultimately.

My hope is that if we get a 1C this draft and a 1D next draft, our outlook becomes much cheerier much faster. A team with Carlsson/Smith - Hertl - Bystedt is going to be pretty solid, if the prospects develop how they should. We’ll have some great wingers and can get some in FA.

The defense is really the issue - if we can get that 1D next year, I think, again, the team starts looking really nicely balanced.

Oh, also we need an actual goalie who can stop pucks and stuff.

…so yeah, 2-3 years is optimistic. A lot has to go right.

You can always sign or trade for veterans but my point was more about the collection of young assets the Sharks had in the org when they made the Thornton trade. It wasn't just that Thornton singlehandedly made us a playoff team, although he certainly did in 05-06, it's that we were only able to build a sustainable contender around him because Pavelski and Vlasic developed into core players and we were able to trade Gorges, Bernier, Carle, Michalek and Setoguchi (who I forgot about initially, sorry Seto) for impact/star players.

We need to build up a similar base of assets before we can even think about adding a Thornton or Matthews level player. Otherwise we'll just get a short term bump to playoff bubble status (at best) before being bad again within a few seasons.

 

[Jargon]

You can always sign or trade for veterans but my point was more about the collection of young assets the Sharks had in the org when they made the Thornton trade. It wasn't just that Thornton singlehandedly made us a playoff team, although he certainly did in 05-06, it's that we were only able to build a sustainable contender around him because Pavelski and Vlasic developed into core players and we were able to trade Gorges, Bernier, Carle, Michalek and Setoguchi (who I forgot about initially, sorry Seto) for impact/star players.

We need to build up a similar base of assets before we can even think about adding a Thornton or Matthews level player. Otherwise we'll just get a short term bump to playoff bubble status (at best) before being bad again within a few seasons.

Yeah, all good points. I’m a 1000x more optimistic going into this summer than last, thankfully.

 

[Sharkz4Fun]

Man, the Leafs truly are the Sharks of the last decade.

I think its the Oilers, or, if the Stars don't make the SCF, it's them cause of DeBoer. Talent up on the top 6, absolutely nothing at all on the bottom six, a couple good defenders, awful goaltending. Thornton/Pavelski/Couture always showed up for the most part, like Draisaitl/McDavid and Pavelski/Hintz. Matthews and Marner are f***ing invisible if they aren't scoring.

 

[seroes]

2-3 would be great but realistically I think it will be much longer than that. Looking at that list of players from 2005, if Eklund becomes a similar level player to Michalek, Ferraro becomes Gorges, Thrun is Murray, Mukh is Ehrhoff and Bystedt is Goc, we still need to find players on the level of Marleau (hopefully this is our 4th OA), Cheechoo, Bernier, Carle, Pavelski and Vlasic through the draft. That probably requires at least 3-4 more years of lottery picks and getting lucky a few times in later rounds.

I think 4-5 years is much more realistic. In 2 or 3 though we should be seeing some of the fruits of our rebuild to give us hope for the future. The old contracts will be almost gone and a couple of our current prospects should be entering their prime.

Our prospect pool would be great if we were still contending, plenty of potential bottom six/pairing options coming up with 1 guy being added into the core. As it is now it's nowhere near enough.

 

[Shark in Hockeytown]

I think the late first and early second round picks are really key for the Sharks to hit. #4 should produce a high quality first line forward no matter which of Michkov/Carlsson/Smith they pick. But picks in the late first/early second can produce star players or busts (as well as lots of solid unexceptional players). Getting a star with one and a solid top 6 forward/top 4 dman would really help the rebuild.

 

[Jargon]

I still have this feeling that Grier is going to try and get a 3rd 1st round pick. It’s such a good draft, it doesn’t hurt to take as many swings as possible.

 

[Sharksfan66]

Ok, you guys made me do it. Really though, figured it best to separate this talk out from the main roster discussion...

2005 Sharks vs. 2023 Sharks

In the main roster discussion thread, there's been some discussion about where this team is at compared to the 2005-06 team before Jumbo arrived. I was surprised to see how many people felt that the 05-06 team seems to have been in a much better place than we are today, since the only season I...

forums.hfboards.com

Biggest difference is that at the time of the Thornton trade the Sharks were loaded with good players of Thornton's age or younger like Marleau, Cheechoo, Michalek, Bernier, Goc and Ehrhoff with Clowe, Carle, Pavelski, Gorges, Murray and Vlasic coming up through the system. Who do the Sharks currently have in their entire organization who is Matthews age or younger and projects to be anywhere near as good as those players from 2005? Eklund, arguably Ferraro and maybe Thrun, Mukhamadullin and Bystedt someday? Completely different situation.

I think hindsight has skewed your view of Goc, Ehrhoff, Clowe, Pavelski, Gorges, & Murray here. I don't recall anyone talking about them as core pieces at the time.

But I'm probably splitting hairs here, as the more I think about it, I do think the situation is different (the situation with the league and how teams are built today, as @mogambomoroo pointed out), so it probably doesn't matter. Sigh.

 

[LadyStanley]

2005 wasn't nearly as crazy capwise as now.

With 3 seasons of essentially a flat cap , and one more to go, teams do not have th space they did back then. Totally different angle.

I don't see any pne player being a savior and carrying the team to winning the cup.

It takes a team of about two dozen players.

 

[WTFetus]

2005 wasn't nearly as crazy capwise as now.

With 3 seasons of essentially a flat cap , and one more to go, teams do not have th space they did back then. Totally different angle.

I don't see any pne player being a savior and carrying the team to winning the cup.

It takes a team of about two dozen players.

I don't think that argument holds much weight considering 2005 was the first season with an actual hard cap. So it was just as crazy in it's own right.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Toronto just shows you how hard it is to build a winner. Not only do you need high draft picks, and not only do you need difference-makers to be available...but they also have to be players that show up when it matters most. It's not an easy thing to test for.

 

[mogambomoroo]

I feel like Mike Grier has started a pretty under the radar way of building a solid foundation for the future by betting on players like Thrun, Peterson, Kaut that didn't have space on their respective teams that drafted them but have potential. I feel like there will be a lot of these kind of moves ahead, and he will go to teams that are loaded with prospects and pay lower price rather than trading for picks. I mean i already feel like Thrun and Peterson could become important players that only needed a good chance to showcase their talent.