Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part II

[TheWayToRefJose]

Would he definitely walk in UFA? After winning another Rocket with EK65 feeding him all year long and bringing the Sharks back to the playoffs? Guy would be hero even if we don't make it past the first round (which we prob wouldn't). And with Jumbo/Patty and their families around?

I know it'd be a big risk, but from the team perspective, this could be the Jumbo trade 2.0, instantly bringing us back to the days of 05/06 where we have a nice long window just opening up.

I think it's far more likely Toronto laughs Grier off the phone if he offers this, but to me, that's an inditement of the lack of imagination in hockey GMs these days. In addition to the culture reset (which I think is the main win), can you imagine what they could do with all that extra cap space? Go get Meier (who, despite the lack of results, I thought looked good for NJ), Dumba, etc. in FA to beef up your team and give it another go with Mr. "that's 1!" finishing all Marner's feeds. I think it could be a win-win, even if it's a big risk for both. But I also think it will never happen lol


Oh haha. I wish we had a big 2 right now.

I guess back in the day, I would have thought about Jumbo/Patty as our big 2 until guys like Pavs/Couture came up and Boyle/Heatley came in.

But ya, I was thinking of Matthews & Marner when I said "big 2"

Why would he want to be on a lottery team during his prime? It makes zero sense. This team with Matthews is still not making the playoffs.

And from SJ management perspective, Matthews isn’t going to make this a playoff team and by the time the rebuild is over and the team is competitive, he won’t be what he is now. It makes zero sense for the player or the team.

 

[Juxtaposer]

For me, if I'm Grier, I'm calling whoever is left in charge in Toronto and telling them that if they're ready to make a big move, I'm ready to send them 4OA + Couture @50% + Thrun for Matthews. You can laugh, but I doubt Boston regrets trading Jumbo... (and IMO this is a way better deal than Boston got)

1) F*** no.
2) So you’re advocating for trading for Jumbo 2.0 whilst also saying that Boston had no regrets? Insane logic.

 

[WTFetus]

I’m curious what other Sharks fans think about this...
Put it another way, with hindsight, do you wish we traded one of Jumbo/Patty after, say, the loss to Anaheim in 09?

I love both those guys (check my avatar!), but I wonder if making a hard sacrifice like that could have changed the culture of the team to where we avoid the whole "coworkers" thing a few years later.

For me, if I'm Grier, I'm calling whoever is left in charge in Toronto and telling them that if they're ready to make a big move, I'm ready to send them 4OA + Couture @50% + Thrun for Matthews. You can laugh, but I doubt Boston regrets trading Jumbo... (and IMO this is a way better deal than Boston got)

That's an awful trade for the Sharks. You're saying that Boston doesn't regret trading Thornton, but Toronto is Boston in your scenario. And not only so, but the package that they are getting is significantly better than what Boston got. Makes no sense all around.

 

[Sharksfan66]

1) F*** no.
2) So you’re advocating for trading for Jumbo 2.0 whilst also saying that Boston had no regrets? Insane logic.

Fair on 1 (I kind of imagine Toronto saying the same btw), but here's the difference on 2... We have old Jumbo who I think finally learned the importance of going to the next gear come playoffs b/c you only get so many chances. I think he could coach Matthews through it in a way that Jumbo didn't have anyone do for him. So while Boston had no regrets, I think it *could* be different this time.

Why would he want to be on a lottery team during his prime? It makes zero sense. This team with Matthews is still not making the playoffs.

And from SJ management perspective, Matthews isn’t going to make this a playoff team and by the time the rebuild is over and the team is competitive, he won’t be what he is now. It makes zero sense for the player or the team.

I was shocked at the turnaround in 2005, but it can happen.

Jumbo singlehandedly turned SJ into a perennial playoff team for 10-15 years. He was the window. I think it could be the same for Matthews here.

 

[Sharksfan66]

That's an awful trade for the Sharks. You're saying that Boston doesn't regret trading Thornton, but Toronto is Boston in your scenario. And not only so, but the package that they are getting is significantly better than what Boston got. Makes no sense all around.

Well, I was thinking you have to give to get. Maybe I gave too much? Sometimes I think we on this board value picks too much. What are the odds 4OA ever becomes the player Matthews is today? And it's not like he's super old. He's what...25? Isn't that how old Thornton was when we got him?

Anyway, to the logic of the deal...In principle, I don't think Boston regretted trading Thornton and I think Toronto wouldn't either because I don't think they're going anywhere with their current core. BUT I do think that a trade could wake Matthews up, paired with the right mentorship from Jumbo, I think it could lead to a win-win for both teams, similar to how the Jumbo trade in the end was a win-win (though hopefully with a Cup this time for the Sharks).

Maybe I'm too stuck in the past, but this has worked well for the Sharks before and with Jumbo still in SJ, it seems they would be poised to make the 2.0 version even better. Would certainly make for a cool story!

 

[tiburon12]

We should instead look at a three way trade with Arizona and Toronto.

Karlsson to Toronto, Matthews to Arizona, #6OA +++ to us. Full in the other pieces to make it work

 

[WTFetus]

We have old Jumbo who I think finally learned the importance of going to the next gear come playoffs b/c you only get so many chances. I think he could coach Matthews through it in a way that Jumbo didn't have anyone do for him. So while Boston had no regrets, I think it *could* be different this time.

So after 25 seasons of playing in the NHL and not having that next gear, Thornton finally learned about that next gear during retirement? You're basing this off of what exactly?
Not every star player makes a good coach. I don't think Thornton would be a good one as his skillset wasn't something that was taught either. It was predominantly his natural skill/instinct and size.

Well, I was thinking you have to give to get. Maybe I gave too much? Sometimes I think we on this board value picks too much. What are the odds 4OA ever becomes the player Matthews is today? And it's not like he's super old. He's what...25? Isn't that how old Thornton was when we got him?

Anyway, to the logic of the deal...In principle, I don't think Boston regretted trading Thornton and I think Toronto wouldn't either because I don't think they're going anywhere with their current core. BUT I do think that a trade could wake Matthews up, paired with the right mentorship from Jumbo, I think it could lead to a win-win for both teams, similar to how the Jumbo trade in the end was a win-win (though hopefully with a Cup this time for the Sharks).

Maybe I'm too stuck in the past, but this has worked well for the Sharks before and with Jumbo still in SJ, it seems they would be poised to make the 2.0 version even better. Would certainly make for a cool story!

What does Matthews do for this team? He doesn't make them a contender or even a playoff team and you're giving up a significant piece in this long needed rebuild for him. The current Sharks team is not even close to the 05-06 Sharks team where they're a Thornton away from turning things around. He's also a UFA at the end of next season with no reason to re-sign here aside from the weak San Ramon connection, so you're trading the 4th overall pick for a one year rental on a non-playoff team.

 

[Jargon]

Man, the Leafs truly are the Sharks of the last decade.

 

[Pavelski2112]

Man, the Leafs truly are the Sharks of the last decade.

Nah, the Sharks at least won rounds often

 

[Juxtaposer]

Man, the Leafs truly are the Sharks of the last decade.

The Sharks won 11 playoff series between 2010 and 2019. The Leafs have won 1 playoff series from 2017 to 2023. Big difference.

 

[Jargon]

The Sharks won 11 playoff series between 2010 and 2019. The Leafs have won 1 playoff series from 2017 to 2023. Big difference.

Well, give them 3 more years to catch up.

 

[Barrie22]

Well, give them 3 more years to catch up.

3 more seasons of cup final appearances and they don't even pass it. They would need to win 3 straight cups to pass the 11 round wins.

 

[mogambomoroo]

Well, I was thinking you have to give to get. Maybe I gave too much? Sometimes I think we on this board value picks too much. What are the odds 4OA ever becomes the player Matthews is today? And it's not like he's super old. He's what...25? Isn't that how old Thornton was when we got him?

Anyway, to the logic of the deal...In principle, I don't think Boston regretted trading Thornton and I think Toronto wouldn't either because I don't think they're going anywhere with their current core. BUT I do think that a trade could wake Matthews up, paired with the right mentorship from Jumbo, I think it could lead to a win-win for both teams, similar to how the Jumbo trade in the end was a win-win (though hopefully with a Cup this time for the Sharks).

Maybe I'm too stuck in the past, but this has worked well for the Sharks before and with Jumbo still in SJ, it seems they would be poised to make the 2.0 version even better. Would certainly make for a cool story!

I see what you are trying to say, but I feel like Thornton being an elite playmaking center and playing with all around better team and helping them become so much better (Rocket Richard Cheechoo) made Sharks a playoff/contending team for that window. Matthews would be a star if he came to the Sharks but I can't see him making Thornton kind of a impact if he came. If he was making a Thornton like impact, I think Toronto would be going to conference finals without even blinking.

 

[Sharksfan66]

So after 25 seasons of playing in the NHL and not having that next gear, Thornton finally learned about that next gear during retirement? You're basing this off of what exactly?
Not every star player makes a good coach. I don't think Thornton would be a good one as his skillset wasn't something that was taught either. It was predominantly his natural skill/instinct and size.


What does Matthews do for this team? He doesn't make them a contender or even a playoff team and you're giving up a significant piece in this long needed rebuild for him. The current Sharks team is not even close to the 05-06 Sharks team where they're a Thornton away from turning things around. He's also a UFA at the end of next season with no reason to re-sign here aside from the weak San Ramon connection, so you're trading the 4th overall pick for a one year rental on a non-playoff team.

For me, I heard it in the interviews he gave late in his SJ years/post-SJ years, especially when he was talking about his long beard and the reason for that. I think it finally clicked on him that you only get so many chances at this and need to give it your all. And I think you could see that attitude at work in him in the 19 run, where he asked to stay on the bench during that crazy PP sequence. Too bad he didn't figure this out when he still had "it" you know? I could be wrong (maybe I'm reading too much into all of this), but I don't think the idea is as crazy as you think.

As for the 05/06 team, I'm wondering what you have in mind when you say we're not even close now. Here's how I see it:

• In terms of star power, EK65 >> Marleau, even with the age difference.​

• In terms of scoring threats, I think Hertl, Barabonov, Eklund & Bordeleau are roughly a wash with Cheech, Ekman, Michalek & Bernier (hot take perhaps, but I think Ek could have a similarly incredible breakout complimenting the new star as Cheech).​

• In terms of depth, I wonder if the current Sharks don't have an advantage (would you really take McCauley, Smith, Scott Thornton, Rissmiller, etc. over Sturm, Kunin, Svech, Gregor, etc.)?​

• In terms of D, I'll take the current Sharks who lack the 1 thing the Thornton Sharks lacked for so many years (a true #1 D). In terms of D-depth, I'd say it's probably a wash.​

• Goaltending clearly goes to the 05/06 Sharks, but that's the only category I see them clearly ahead in.​

• In terms of prospects, I know we all thought Carle was going to be something at the time, but at this point, I wonder if Thrun will end up having the better career. That is to say nothing of Muk, Knyzhov, etc. And Clowe ended up pretty great, but do you really think the Sharks wont have 1 of our forward prospects click at least that level? Am I forgetting anyone? It has been a while. ​

​

I'd be trading 4OA believing if Jumbo could turn that into the team we all remember & love, Matthews could do the same (and if he did, he'd have no desire to go play in the desert).

 

[Sharksfan66]

The Sharks won 11 playoff series between 2010 and 2019. The Leafs have won 1 playoff series from 2017 to 2023. Big difference.

Back that 2010-2019 window back to the beginning (05/06) and the comparison doesn't look so crazy.

Sure maybe the Sharks teams were better at winning in the 1st round, but it took the Sharks 5 years to get beyond the 2nd round and our biggest choke happened after that. Took us 11 seasons to make the cup final & I don't even need to say what we never won. Leafs are only on 7 years into their runs...

I see what you are trying to say, but I feel like Thornton being an elite playmaking center and playing with all around better team and helping them become so much better (Rocket Richard Cheechoo) made Sharks a playoff/contending team for that window. Matthews would be a star if he came to the Sharks but I can't see him making Thornton kind of a impact if he came. If he was making a Thornton like impact, I think Toronto would be going to conference finals without even blinking.

This is a good point about playmakers driving play more than scorers.

But I wonder if Eklund + Matthews wouldn't have a similar impact as Jumbo + Cheecho. I wouldn't expect them to win all the awards like those guys did, but maybe they have similar enough skills together to make a similar impact?

Remember, Boston lost in the first round multiple times in the years leading up to them trading us Jumbo...

 

[Gecklund]

For me, I heard it in the interviews he gave late in his SJ years/post-SJ years, especially when he was talking about his long beard and the reason for that. I think it finally clicked on him that you only get so many chances at this and need to give it your all. And I think you could see that attitude at work in him in the 19 run, where he asked to stay on the bench during that crazy PP sequence. Too bad he didn't figure this out when he still had "it" you know? I could be wrong (maybe I'm reading too much into all of this), but I don't think the idea is as crazy as you think.

As for the 05/06 team, I'm wondering what you have in mind when you say we're not even close now. Here's how I see it:

• In terms of star power, EK65 >> Marleau, even with the age difference.​

• In terms of scoring threats, I think Hertl, Barabonov, Eklund & Bordeleau are roughly a wash with Cheech, Ekman, Michalek & Bernier (hot take perhaps, but I think Ek could have a similarly incredible breakout complimenting the new star as Cheech).​

• In terms of depth, I wonder if the current Sharks don't have an advantage (would you really take McCauley, Smith, Scott Thornton, Rissmiller, etc. over Sturm, Kunin, Svech, Gregor, etc.)?​

• In terms of D, I'll take the current Sharks who lack the 1 thing the Thornton Sharks lacked for so many years (a true #1 D). In terms of D-depth, I'd say it's probably a wash.​

• Goaltending clearly goes to the 05/06 Sharks, but that's the only category I see them clearly ahead in.​

• In terms of prospects, I know we all thought Carle was going to be something at the time, but at this point, I wonder if Thrun will end up having the better career. That is to say nothing of Muk, Knyzhov, etc. And Clowe ended up pretty great, but do you really think the Sharks wont have 1 of our forward prospects click at least that level? Am I forgetting anyone? It has been a while. ​

​

I'd be trading 4OA believing if Jumbo could turn that into the team we all remember & love, Matthews could do the same (and if he did, he'd have no desire to go play in the desert).

1. Sure with Karlsson over Marleau but Jumbo was better (by a lot) than Matthews right now.
2. There is no way Bordeleau belongs in that group. Bordeleau isn’t an NHL player now and probably never will be. You claim Eklund might break out. What does that look like? He’d have to be at least a 60 point scorer to make your claim true and even as one of Eklund’s biggest fans thats a whole lot to ask of a rookie.
3. Our bottom 6 might have a lot of players but they are all pretty bad.
4. Our D is absolute garbage right now. It’s Karlsson and a bunch of at best bottom pairing guys if not guys who shouldn’t even be regulars in the lineup.
5. Doesn’t matter about the rest if we are still playing Kahkonen in net who is not an NHL goalie.
6. Our prospects might be okay (ish) now but only Eklund and Thrun might have an impact in the NHL this season. The rest are not ready to be more than replacement level players

I understand wanting to be optimistic but even 3 Matthews level players wouldn’t make this team a playoff team. Their defense is so bad and their goaltending is somehow worse.

 

[mogambomoroo]

I think it's fair to say that 05-06 was probably very different time with how the game was played all around, I didn't watch back then but someone with more information from that time could tell me if I'm totally wrong. The league is much more harder and faster nowadays, that one player isn't probably enough to take a team to a playoff run or even a cup run.

Not gonna take anything away from Matthews though. I liked your idea in a way that it brings conversation about if one player could change the route of this SJ team, I would like to think that it's possible but we saw a 100-point defencemen just bring us to the 4th last place.

I think it's so much more about depth now and having couple of blue chip prospects on their elc in the mix.

Don't get me wrong, I love the story of Joe Thornton and it was beautiful time for this team.

 

[Jargon]

I would say the Sharks had a significantly better roster in 05-06 when Joe joined. The defense didn’t have a true #1 and ultimately it’s why they couldn’t get very far, but it was a fairly solid group defensively. The offense had fairly high end players for their positions - as far as I remember, we had a pretty great 3rd line.

And finally, like was mentioned, the goalies aren’t even comparable. Nabby was a Calder-winner, Tanko is the reason we’re picking 4th.

Also, I’d say the insane chemistry between Joe and Cheechoo fueled that season. I mean, they’d single-handedly win games together.

To be perfectly honest, if this Sharks team could rebuild the D-corp and get a goalie that’s even just average, we could be close to a bubble team. They can score goals, there’s some skill up front, but the defense/goalie situation is just atrocious. You could see the team just emotionally breakdown whenever Tanko let’s in a dumb goal.

 

[PacificOceanPotion]

So, I have a question, and I’m sure someone here will be able to help me. I think the unanimous concern most of us have with Michkov is his desire to come over to NA and play in the NHL. Now, that may be a completely unfounded fear as I have not heard any quotes or articles that suggest this as an outcome, but I think worst case scenario is he extends in Sochi after the 25/26 season. If that hypothetically happens, why hasn’t there ever been talk about the NHL possibly drafting a new draft stipulation that sais if one of your draft picks refuses to report to an NHL affiliated assignment, you qualify for a compensatory selection? I’m just curious why the NHL doesn’t have a clause like this so teams don‘t get screwed.

 

[landshark]

To be perfectly honest, if this Sharks team could rebuild the D-corp and get a goalie that’s even just average, we could be close to a bubble team. They can score goals, there’s some skill up front, but the defense/goalie situation is just atrocious. You could see the team just emotionally breakdown whenever Tanko let’s in a dumb goal.

Eleven years (from 05-06) later the same could be said of the team emotionally breaking down when Jones let in a stinker too.

So, I have a question, and I’m sure someone here will be able to help me. I think the unanimous concern most of us have with Michkov is his desire to come over to NA and play in the NHL. Now, that may be a completely unfounded fear as I have not heard any quotes or articles that suggest this as an outcome, but I think worst case scenario is he extends in Sochi after the 25/26 season. If that hypothetically happens, why hasn’t there ever been talk about the NHL possibly drafting a new draft stipulation that sais if one of your draft picks refuses to report to an NHL affiliated assignment, you qualify for a compensatory selection? I’m just curious why the NHL doesn’t have a clause like this so teams don‘t get screwed.

No one forcing the team to pick risky folks tho. This is why I think a lot of folks think Michkov will fall a bit to a mid-first round pick. There's too much talent available w/o the risk of wasting a high 1st round pick on someone that might want to come to the NHL but due to circumstances beyond their control are forced to remain in the KHL.

 

[Jargon]

So, I have a question, and I’m sure someone here will be able to help me. I think the unanimous concern most of us have with Michkov is his desire to come over to NA and play in the NHL. Now, that may be a completely unfounded fear as I have not heard any quotes or articles that suggest this as an outcome, but I think worst case scenario is he extends in Sochi after the 25/26 season. If that hypothetically happens, why hasn’t there ever been talk about the NHL possibly drafting a new draft stipulation that sais if one of your draft picks refuses to report to an NHL affiliated assignment, you qualify for a compensatory selection? I’m just curious why the NHL doesn’t have a clause like this so teams don‘t get screwed.

I think it’s a good idea though maybe part of the game is that there’s risk and you have to decide whether to take it or not. It’s part of the drama.

That said, I don’t actually think there’s any question that he WANTS to come over. Kid is potentially the best Russian player in the last many years, you don’t get there by being insanely driven. My fear isn’t his willingness, my fear is that he lives in essentially a dictatorship, during a war, and is probably a fairly high profile player there. There are risks in his ability to come over, not his willingness, I’d say. We have no idea what state that country is going to be in in 3 years.

 

[Cas]

I think it’s a good idea though maybe part of the game is that there’s risk and you have to decide whether to take it or not. It’s part of the drama.

That said, I don’t actually think there’s any question that he WANTS to come over. Kid is potentially the best Russian player in the last many years, you don’t get there by being insanely driven. My fear isn’t his willingness, my fear is that he lives in essentially a dictatorship, during a war, and is probably a fairly high profile player there. There are risks in his ability to come over, not his willingness, I’d say. We have no idea what state that country is going to be in in 3 years.

I agree with all of this. I see no reason whatsoever to be concerned that Michkov will not want to come to the NHL, only that he may not be allowed to do so (and I'm gradually becoming less concerned about that).

I'm also not sure it's going to take three years. Between buyouts and "just gtfo of Russia," Michkov's timeline could be a lot quicker.

 

[Hodge]

So, I have a question, and I’m sure someone here will be able to help me. I think the unanimous concern most of us have with Michkov is his desire to come over to NA and play in the NHL. Now, that may be a completely unfounded fear as I have not heard any quotes or articles that suggest this as an outcome, but I think worst case scenario is he extends in Sochi after the 25/26 season. If that hypothetically happens, why hasn’t there ever been talk about the NHL possibly drafting a new draft stipulation that sais if one of your draft picks refuses to report to an NHL affiliated assignment, you qualify for a compensatory selection? I’m just curious why the NHL doesn’t have a clause like this so teams don‘t get screwed.

You already do get a compensatory 2nd round pick for failing to sign a 1st rounder before he becomes eligible to re-enter the draft or an unrestricted free agent. But because there is no transfer agreement between the NHL and the Russian Federation the team that drafts Michkov will technically hold his rights indefinitely so they will never get a compensatory pick. If Michkov ever wants to play in the NHL before he retires he will be forced to sign with the team that drafted him.

 

[PacificOceanPotion]

You already do get a compensatory 2nd round pick for failing to sign a 1st rounder before he becomes eligible to re-enter the draft or an unrestricted free agent. But because there is no transfer agreement between the NHL and the Russian Federation the team that drafts Michkov will technically hold his rights indefinitely so they will never get a compensatory pick. If Michkov ever wants to play in the NHL before he retires he will be forced to sign with the team that drafted him.

Got it, thanks Hodge.

 

[Shark in Hockeytown]

Jumbo singlehandedly turned SJ into a perennial playoff team for 10-15 years. He was the window. I think it could be the same for Matthews here.

This is revisionist history. In the years before the lockout, the Sharks made the playoffs six out of seven seasons, albeit as a marginal playoff team, won four playoff series, and advanced to the WCF in 2004. Yes, the team hit a rough patch in the first months of the 05-06 season, but Thornton was added to a solid playoff team. The current version is not.

Remember Doug Wilson inherited a solid team; Mike Grier got a dumpster fire.