GDT: 2022-23 NHL Playoffs

[HTFN]

Yep. That’s some revisionist history.

Another big factor was MAF finally becoming an elite goalie in Vegas.

All pretty agreed. I think the kindest spin you can put on it is that fans have maybe underappreciated what it means to be able to pick and choose your contract bloat and 5 year plan all at once through a draft, but both Seattle and Vegas had rosters that were once openly mocked. Seattle was never going to be able to do what Vegas did because their GM totally bungled it and now they're competitive.

It's a nice start but you have to keep it going and every year they offer their own contracts they become just like everyone else. I'm fine with that system, personally.

 

[kicksavedave]

Someone has to play the crotchety old Caps fan and defend their expansion team, and that someone is me.

Unlike the more recent expansion drafts (the one that constructed the Vegas Golden Knights in 2017 and the one that will see the Seattle Kraken with their first roster) in which each team could protect either seven forwards, three defenders, and a goalie or protect four forwards, four defensemen, and a goalie, the expansion draft of 1974 allowed teams to protect 15 skaters and two goaltenders.

First year pros (those who had started their careers during the 1973-74 season) were exempt from selection. When a player was selected from a team, the team could protect one additional player. Ultimately, each team would lose three players in expansion. Prior to the expansion draft of 1974, there were sixteen teams in the league.

The Capitals’ General Manager Milt Schmidt remarked about the paucity of available talent to the New York Times on June 11, 1974, “It’s not fair. We paid $6 million dollars to join the league and look how little the other teams have left for us.”

Jim McKay, a columnist from the Windsor Star, described the players available for that expansion draft as “little more than a bag of bones” and envisioned: “Washington and Kansas City met last night in hockey for the first time. Hockey lost.” That quote was found in the book, The Legends of Landover, written by Glenn Dreyfuss.

With the player protection rules in place, the Capitals and the Scouts were basically drafting the 16th, 18th, and 20th-best players from each of the other existing clubs. Most of these teams were facing their third expansion draft in five years, which had definitely thinned out their talent depth.

There was an expansion draft in 1970 to build the Buffalo Sabres and the Vancouver Canucks, followed by the expansion draft in 1972 to construct the New York Islanders and Atlanta Flames. These drafts were on top of the initial expansion in 1967 that created six new teams.

The expansion draft to build the Capitals and the Scouts was the fourth expansion draft in just seven years. In addition, the NHL teams were competing for talent with the WHA, which had begun operation in 1972. Thus, each team had an even thinner talent pool left for drafting than the Sabres, Canucks, Islanders, and Flames did at the time of their expansion.

I was there for all of it. Those were bleak times. 8-67-5. ONE road win against the powerhouse California Golden Seals LOL. 5.58 goals against, 5th worst all time. They gave up 10 or more goals in a game... 7 times.

82-83 was a complete rebirth of sorts. June 2018 felt like dying and going to heaven.

 

[kicksavedave]

Really good video on what Paul Maurice changed from last years Panthers to this years, and its all about planning for playoff success.

 

[twabby]

Ryan Suter has been brutal this postseason.

 

[Fred22406Capsfan]

No sweep out west, game 5 incoming.

 

[Corby78]

Yep. That’s some revisionist history.

Another big factor was MAF finally becoming an elite goalie in Vegas.

It’s revisionist history that the rules were changed and each team had to give up quality middle six player? Along with the fact that GMBM had all the cap flexibility to help make trades like the Florida one? Granted guys like MAF playing above his previous years were also a factor, I’m not saying the NHL gave them a finals team. But it’s not a coincidence that both Vegas and Seattle are having early success. The rules were changed to give them the players and flexibility to get out of the gate as a strong franchise.

And I don’t remember people saying they thought they would suck at all. In fact I remember a lot of people complaining that teams had to give up too much. The finals were a suprise, but a playoff team was not.

 

[um]

It’s revisionist history that the rules were changed and each team had to give up quality middle six player? Along with the fact that GMBM had all the cap flexibility to help make trades like the Florida one? Granted guys like MAF playing above his previous years were also a factor, I’m not saying the NHL gave them a finals team. But it’s not a coincidence that both Vegas and Seattle are having early success. The rules were changed to give them the players and flexibility to get out of the gate as a strong franchise.

And I don’t remember people saying they thought they would suck at all. In fact I remember a lot of people complaining that teams had to give up too much. The finals were a suprise, but a playoff team was not.

2017-18 NHL Preseason Odds | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the Preseason Odds to win the Stanley Cup, and over-unders for the 2017-18 NHL season on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Yea dawg, that’s some revisionist history right there. Maybe you were smart enough to know how good they’d be.

Fun fact, Shipachyov was slotted to be their 1C before camp. I know this because I took him on my fantasy team.

D’oh!

 

[Devil Dancer]

I know a lot of you on this forum hate VGK for various reasons, but I find myself rooting for them out west this year. Maybe it's because I've had Marchassault in fantasy for years, maybe it's because f*** Texas, but for whatever reason when I watch the games I want them to win.

The only thing about them that pisses me off is that they won G1 in 2018 on a terrible non call, but given the outcome of that series I ain't too mad about it.

 

[Corby78]

2017-18 NHL Preseason Odds | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the Preseason Odds to win the Stanley Cup, and over-unders for the 2017-18 NHL season on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Yea dawg, that’s some revisionist history right there. Maybe you were smart enough to know how good they’d be.

Fun fact, Shipachyov was slotted to be their 1C before camp. I know this because I took him on my fantasy team.

D’oh!

I have no idea when those random odds came out, but go look at the hfboards expansion draft thread. Go look at the off-season thread. Nobody was saying it was a finals team, but people knew they had been given a solid roster and would be much more competitive than any other franchise. Besides it doesn’t matter what the common fan thought, the proof is in results.

But if you want to believe that two expansion franchises have had the success they have had with multiple playoff rounds wins simply because their GMs were geniuses, and nobody saw it coming or had any idea the new rules would be a huge factor…… I can’t help you. The NHL knew what they were doing. And for anyone who is a fan of a previous expansion team who trudged through the mud for years, it’s going to leave a bit of a sour taste.

 

[PlushMinus]

Ryan Suter has been brutal this postseason.

I had previously heard some stories about him and Parise when they played for Minny. Apparently he's a real asshole. This is one example and Jason Arnott had some negative stuff to say about him as well:

Bill Guerin Chose Cap Hell Over "Uncoachable" Ryan Suter and Zach Parise

Ryan Suter and Zach Parise changed the path of the Minnesota Wild when they signed 9 years ago... but were they bad for the locker room while here.

www.minnesotasportsfan.com

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

I know a lot of you on this forum hate VGK for various reasons, but I find myself rooting for them out west this year. Maybe it's because I've had Marchassault in fantasy for years, maybe it's because f*** Texas, but for whatever reason when I watch the games I want them to win.

The only thing about them that pisses me off is that they won G1 in 2018 on a terrible non call, but given the outcome of that series I ain't too mad about it.

I kindof want to see GMGM win a cup. Hes been one of the better ones. But Matty Ice is everyones new favorite player.

 

[StrikingDistance]

McNabb shoulders some of the blame of the loss. 2 dumb penalties led to 2 GAs...with one in OT.

Also, I don't care if Vegas wins the cup...as long as it wasn't in their first year against us.

 

[Jags]

I have no idea when those random odds came out, but go look at the hfboards expansion draft thread. Go look at the off-season thread.

That's an odd barometer for the truth, Corby. At that time, hfboards was riddled with passionate fans that felt an expansion team just stole something from them. Using a passionate fan forum to gauge reality is like expecting to get a measured take on race relations from the Third Reich.

Actual, dispassionate, professional, and mostly unbiased hockey prognosticators thought Vegas would be unremarkable in their first year. When the hockey press forecasts a team being "competitive" they're basically describing a .500 team. I don't think anyone believed that a winning record was impossible, but next to no one predicted playoff success at the time of the expansion draft.

And I think the way that team gelled was the difference between them and Seattle. The chemistry they developed early was astounding, and that's something you can't really predict. They elevated one another, and the team took backward strides when that chemistry was tampered with. They've been extremely well-managed since.

I like the new expansion rules. They could certainly tinker a bit now that we know it's a formula that can yield a stable franchise -- Vegas being exempt from the next expansion draft was a little much -- but overall I'd stand pat.

 

[Rayquaza64]

The expansion draft is fine. Both teams were projected to be ass immediately out of the draft, had good moves made to improve the teams, and took off form there. I hate Vegas because their players are unlikable their fanbase is annoying as hell and f*** em in general

 

[Hivemind]

Seattle isn't a playoff team because of their expansion draft. Just one year removed from that expansion draft, they only have 12 pieces from the expansion draft left on their NHL roster (and thats including the one on LTIR). Their best pieces from the expansion draft are Jared McCann, Vince Dunn, Jordan Eberle, and Yanni Gourde. And everyone knows that, while increased ice time and opportunity are certainly factors, McCann and Dunn massively overachieved this year and aren't likely to be able to maintain anywhere near that going forwards. Almost all of their other key players were acquired thru other means. Beniers was a regular draft pick, and was able to find success in the NHL quicker than most (including other 2OA picks). Caps fans are familiar with Burakovsky (UFA), Sprong (trade), Schultz (UFA lol), and Grubauer (UFA). Bjorkstrand was brought in via trade. Tolvanen was acquired off waivers. Schwartz (who wears an "A") and Wennberg were both free agents. Kartye was an undrafted free agent.


(To be clear - I don't think Schultz is big part of their success, but it felt weird to omit him when listing off all the former Caps)

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Bar down Bing….

 

[PlushMinus]

Pfft why are they acting like Robertson's goal was skill? He just took another chip at it and got lucky, ffs

 

[Fred22406Capsfan]

Nice win by Dallas. Gritty. Game six, on deck!

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Pfft why are they acting like Robertson's goal was skill? He just took another chip at it and got lucky, ffs

Would be some real skill if they could shoot that slow flip puck shot on command….got lucky in that nobody saw it….

 

[Corby78]

Seattle isn't a playoff team because of their expansion draft. Just one year removed from that expansion draft, they only have 12 pieces from the expansion draft left on their NHL roster (and thats including the one on LTIR). Their best pieces from the expansion draft are Jared McCann, Vince Dunn, Jordan Eberle, and Yanni Gourde. And everyone knows that, while increased ice time and opportunity are certainly factors, McCann and Dunn massively overachieved this year and aren't likely to be able to maintain anywhere near that going forwards. Almost all of their other key players were acquired thru other means. Beniers was a regular draft pick, and was able to find success in the NHL quicker than most (including other 2OA picks). Caps fans are familiar with Burakovsky (UFA), Sprong (trade), Schultz (UFA lol), and Grubauer (UFA). Bjorkstrand was brought in via trade. Tolvanen was acquired off waivers. Schwartz (who wears an "A") and Wennberg were both free agents. Kartye was an undrafted free agent.


(To be clear - I don't think Schultz is big part of their success, but it felt weird to omit him when listing off all the former Caps)

I have to disagree, the expansion draft the way it’s set up now, it allows you to build a workable roster. Being able to pick your middle 6 tier guys knowing their current contract, along with knowing who the UFA/RFA guys are that year sets you years ahead. You have cap flexibility and are a prime trade partner for everyone else. You are also a viable spot for FAs since your not filled with scrubs and can overpay a bit. That allows you to build the rest of your team through trade/FA.

I seriously don’t know how you can look at the first years of Vegas and Seattle and think those are flukes. I get why they did it, they didn’t want door mats filled with cast offs, AHL guys, and a couple of FAs. IMO though they made it too easy. But it’s JMO it’s not like I can do anything about it.

 

[HTFN]

I have to disagree, the expansion draft the way it’s set up now, it allows you to build a workable roster. Being able to pick your middle 6 tier guys knowing their current contract, along with knowing who the UFA/RFA guys are that year sets you years ahead. You have cap flexibility and are a prime trade partner for everyone else. You are also a viable spot for FAs since your not filled with scrubs and can overpay a bit. That allows you to build the rest of your team through trade/FA.

I seriously don’t know how you can look at the first years of Vegas and Seattle and think those are flukes. I get why they did it, they didn’t want door mats filled with cast offs, AHL guys, and a couple of FAs. IMO though they made it too easy. But it’s JMO it’s not like I can do anything about it.

But there's no benefit to burying them. Staying true to mistakes of the past just to be fair is no way to do things and creating franchises destined to limp for 10-15 years at best is no way to do things either. They have to compete and move forward to stay afloat in their market and then all that does is create mediocre bubble teams ala Minnesota, Columbus, Nashville, etc.

It's way better to give that process a nudge forward and make half-legitimate competitors that still need to manage themselves well to get over the hump (like Vegas, and Seattle may be) than yank the rug and make 15 win bottom feeders in markets you'd actually like to succeed because "them's the breaks".

 

[Corby78]

But there's no benefit to burying them. Staying true to mistakes of the past just to be fair is no way to do things and creating franchises destined to limp for 10-15 years at best is no way to do things. They have to compete and move forward to stay afloat in their market and then all that does is create mediocre bubble teams ala Minnesota, Columbus, Nashville, etc.

It's way better to give that process a nudge forward and make half-legitimate competitors that still need to manage themselves well to get over the hump (like Vegas, and Seattle may be) than yank the rug and make 15 win bottom feeders in markets you'd actually like to succeed because "them's the breaks".

I agree with you here, and if you look at what I said to start I understood the need for the change. I also know it’s hard to get just right as there are sooo many variables and unknowns in how it will work out. I just would dial it back a bit if there is a next time. Some franchises have worked and struggled for years to get to where Seattle/Vegas are year one.

Of course I also don’t think we are adding teams anytime soon, would rather see zona move somewhere that cares.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

I have to disagree, the expansion draft the way it’s set up now, it allows you to build a workable roster. Being able to pick your middle 6 tier guys knowing their current contract, along with knowing who the UFA/RFA guys are that year sets you years ahead. You have cap flexibility and are a prime trade partner for everyone else. You are also a viable spot for FAs since your not filled with scrubs and can overpay a bit. That allows you to build the rest of your team through trade/FA.

I seriously don’t know how you can look at the first years of Vegas and Seattle and think those are flukes. I get why they did it, they didn’t want door mats filled with cast offs, AHL guys, and a couple of FAs. IMO though they made it too easy. But it’s JMO it’s not like I can do anything about it.

And then you look at the Yotes who need a new home and can never get a strong roster.

Vegas and Seattle got gifted 30 top 6 forwards and top 4 defenders. That much depth and trade chips sets you up well. NHL roster is what 20 (12F 6D 2G) So you got 10 top 6 players you gotta trade for picks.

 

[HTFN]

I agree with you here, and if you look at what I said to start I understood the need for the change. I also know it’s hard to get just right as there are sooo many variables and unknowns in how it will work out. I just would dial it back a bit if there is a next time. Some franchises have worked and struggled for years to get to where Seattle/Vegas are year one.

Of course I also don’t think we are adding teams anytime soon, would rather see zona move somewhere that cares.

I can't deny it would be a very lowercase "woohoo" if Vegas wins this year, just since they're still new enough that it's a novelty but at the same time they've also already had missteps, management changes, roster overhaul, etc. and made some really big swings in their lifespan. If they keep this up they're realistically on the manufactured end of a franchise's ebb and flow life cycle (or they just manage everything so super well that they keep up but if that's the case good for them because at a certain point that's just talent).

Whatever happens they and Seattle are already kind of pushing from their origins and they will eventually make mistakes. They entered farther into the life cycle than others but it catches up quick, I'd bet.

 

[PlushMinus]

Would be some real skill if they could shoot that slow flip puck shot on command….got lucky in that nobody saw it….

I mean, a goal's a goal and Robertson has had an incredible season, but it's just the slobbering crap from the commentary team that spoils things

Chandler's goal was a beauty! Good to see him having success with another team (insofar as he wasn't in the Caps post Cup plans, so I'm glad he landed somewhere and has worked hard to earn that top 6 role and succeed at it).