KirkAlbuquerque
#WeNeverGetAGoodCoach
I’ll be upset if we take Fields. I’ll be ambivalent if we take Wilson. Gimme Sewell or trade down and get Chase
OT: 2020 Football Thread: We Still Suck
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Hunter Gathers
The Crown
Fields seems like a complete waste and starting over for the sake of starting over. Take Sewell and then grab a WR with the second 1st.
Very meaningful - they can win the division or wind up with the 3rd overall pick.
Different? Isn't that exactly what the Jets did with Gase, Maccagnan and Douglas?
Barnaby
Registered User
I think Gase is gone. I think they've only kept him around all year to be the sacrificial lamb to keep pressure off of ownership and the front office. You don't regularly hear people blaming Douglass or even the Johnson's. Gase strange antics and lousy coaching has made him a lightning rod. How often do you have a team this bad where the majority of the fan base isn't killing the young QB either.
As a cynical Jet fan, I'll never say never, but I really would be rather shocked. If the Jets were 6-10, then Tase might stick around, but a 2-3 win season where they spent the year as a laughing stock - I just don't see it. Supposedly Douglass and Tase were or are buddies, but I don't think that's enough to save Gase. Plus, let's be honest, Gase contract is guaranteed and he gets torched around here. He'd probably be happy to move back to wherever he's from and collect a paycheck.
I know that the shine has worn off Judge, but I personally have more faith in Judge than anyone should have ever had for Gase who already was a failed HC in Miami.
Barnaby
Registered User
Way to set the bar high for Judge.
I think the jury is out on Judge (see what I did there)... he hasn't had much to work with, but I like his demeanor at least. It'd be a mistake to fire him already even though I typically like to have the GM pick his own guy and DG should be gone. DG is like Sather in the dark ages. He just seems to have no idea how to put a cohesive team together with often conflicting ideologies where you just felt like there was no master plan.
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
Yeah, but the Giants method has resulted in two Super Bowls.
:: shrug ::
Issue with the Giants is Mara at this point. The system works fine with an owner who stays the f*** away.
My comment isn't about comparing the coaches but rather the different approaches by the Jets and Giants ownership. The Jets generally don't let the GM pick their coaches but the other way around and now people wanting the Giants to fire DG while keeping Judge are basically saying the Giants should work the same way. This is not the approach the Giants used to win any of their superbowls. I expect both to be back next season for the Giants. I'm hopeful the Jets will fire Gase and allow Douglass to build his own organization despite his relationship with Gase. But I really don't expect the Jets to do anything that makes sense. The real wildcard is Woody Johnson's presumed return who at least in theory had nothing to do with either hiring.
I think the Jets aren't the only organization to do that, I think the Niners might have done it. It's supposed to be a new school approach so it's not surprising that an organization that won their last Super Bowl almost a decade ago didn't do that.
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If other teams have the same approach as the Jets they are certainly doing it better.
It works if the GM is good and doesn't if he's bad. Same as if a GM hires the coach.
P.S. For some reason I said "lost" their last SB a decade ago and not won, weird.
I am open to discussing multiple variations 0n a theme, but not moving Sewell at 2OA.
As I said, he is worth more to us as an asset than an overpayment in trade.
Having Bechton and Sewell is huge, and if somehow we get another couple of solid guys we could put Bechton and Sewell not as bookends, but next to each other.
That is a signif dif am0unt of pass protection upgrade.
The fact we'd be smart enough to deny Miami or any0ne else from grabbing him is icing on the cake.
Barnaby
Registered User
The wildcard here is if A) The Jets are sold on a guy like Wilson as a potential superstar QB. If he’s a top 5 QB - no one will criticize the Jets in the future. B) Someone else is wildly obsessed with one of the QB’s and makes an RG3-esque offer and the Jets aren’t sold on 1 of the QB’s and keep rolling with Sam.
If the Jets stand at 2 and aren’t totally convinced with a QB or get a monster offer, then I’m VERY satisfied with Sewell at #2.
Maximus
Registered User
I'd love to think Gase is gone as you do. If it were any other team it would be 100000% definite he'd be history. This is the Jets tho and they don't do normal...never have and likely never will.
The only saving grace and why I'm not totally in panic mode that the Jets might actually keep this stiff of a coach is ironically due to Gase's bosom buddy and who he got the Jet GM gig for which is obviously Joe Douglass and his influence with Gase.
I have no doubt in my mind with no Douglass here, Gase would be able to manipulate Chris Johnson for sure and maybe even Woody when he comes back from Great Britain in a month or two and talk his way into another season. But Gase won't try and do that with Douglass and he'll likely tell Joe D to do what's best for the team and the fan base and let him go and get a new head coach which is the right thing to do.
Yes I'm hoping and praying that Gase will do that and make it easy on Douglass but that's the way I'm thinking it's going to go down. Bottom line...it needs to happen one way or another.
Maximus
Registered User
I don't think we are taking a QB at the 2 spot so don't fret. I said it last week and I'll say it again. The only way we stay at #2 is if we are taking Sewell...period end of story.
Now if Douglass loves one of the WR's...Chase or Smith, he's trading down as no way in hell you take one of them at 2. I also said this as well last week a few times, if Douglass can get the Bengals(#6 currently), Dolphins(incredibly #3 due to that amazing Tunsil theft they pulled off with Houston) and the Chargers(#12) chomping at the bit for Sewell and he can get a sweetheart of a deal, I think you have to seriously consider doing it seeing Jets need so much help all over the place and so more if you move down a couple of spots and you get some more #1 thru #3 picks this year that's very appealing to do.
Now if Douglass can also get a few other teams who are chomping at the bit for one of the QB's they might love like say an Atlanta(#4 currently), Detroit(/#7) or a Carolina(#9) all of whom for different reasons could be in the market, well than Douglass will have some more options to mull over to trade down and get a ton back in return.
Gun to my head, I think Douglass the ex O-lineman that he was in college and fully knowing that whoever is the Jet QB whether it's Darnold or someone else that is currently on an NFL roster, needs to continue to build the line anchored by Becton, I think he will take Sewell and that will be that.
No matter what tho, Douglass needs to use all those techniques he learned from Ozzie Newsome and even Howie Roseman to thread the needle and sell it convincingly that he's taking Sewell or he's taking one of the QB's.
He needs to sell it so much so that those other teams that I mentioned maybe just maybe would start a bidding war with one another and give Joe D the motherload like and RGIII type haul, in order to move out of the 2 slot. Going to be a fascinating off season that's for dang sure!.
First things first on the agenda so as to alleviate the angst and get me from taking all these Tums....FIRE GASE!!!
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Barnaby
Registered User
For the Jets, I think it's less the GM or coaches picking each other and more ownership getting too involved and choosing each, then forcing them into a relationship. I think Gase helping to choose Douglass was more unorthodox for the Jets. I don't believe Bowles or Ryan had any previous involvement in choosing GM's. The problem is the ownership not making a wise GM choice in the past and letting that GM run the ship and pick his own guy. Sure, the owner has to be 'comfortable' with a HC, but I think the Johnson's have surpassed that. Too much ownership involvement is typically bad. Too much Johnson's is even worse.
As for the Giants, they should've let DG go last year and started from scratch with a new GM, then that GM could have chosen a coach. However, the Giants muffed it. I just can't see the Giants firing Judge after one season when he's had garbage to work with so I think this might be the rare scenario where you might do your GM search and just do your best to ensure that GM/coach will be comfortable working together. I think scrapping Judge would just set the Giants further back at this point.
Barnaby
Registered User
I'm actually going to go the other way on that. The Johnson's are laughably bad owners, yes. However, I do think they take the criticism to heart and don't want to be on the wrong end of the media hoard. I think that's why you don't hear anything from them these days. They are content to let Gase be the whipping boy. If they kept Gase around, then the issue goes from 'Gase is a bad coach' to 'ownership has no clue.'
NYSPORTS
back afta dis. . .
- Jun 17, 2019
- 7,993
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if the Jets beat the Pats to win their last three and they should have beat Vegas, does Gase stay?
Gettleman isn't going anywhere unless he wants to retire. Judge and Gettleman were on exactly the same page at the draft. The players they drafted had strong worth ethics, high character and had high football IQ's that were coachable. It's one of the reasons the defense could play such complicated schemes. What they need now is for the coaching staff and Gettleman to realize they need to move on from Engram. Laughable he made the pro-bowl. He like all the WR's get no separation. Moron Boomer constantly bashes Jones which is hilarious because if you watch the entire game, I would say 90 t0 95% of the time there is never anybody open for him. The clowns in the media find the one or two plays where there is somebody open that he misses as he is running for his life like always.
They might be able to get a second for Engram from a team that thinks he will flourish in their system. If not, I'd gladly take a 3rd and a 4th. Either way with their first 3 picks they Giants absolutely need to draft 2 WR's who don't suck and either a new TE or a CB. It would be nice if Gettleman were drafting in the top 10 if he learned the concept of TRADING DOWN and picking up a couple or more good picks. Two or three second rounders with their first rounder would be ideal this year. They could go 2 WR's, TE and CB. A pass rusher is badly needed but the offense sucks so bad that needs to be fixed first. The WR's and TE simply aren't any good. How Engram made the pro-bowl is one of the biggest jokes in NFL award history.
They might be able to get a second for Engram from a team that thinks he will flourish in their system. If not, I'd gladly take a 3rd and a 4th. Either way with their first 3 picks they Giants absolutely need to draft 2 WR's who don't suck and either a new TE or a CB. It would be nice if Gettleman were drafting in the top 10 if he learned the concept of TRADING DOWN and picking up a couple or more good picks. Two or three second rounders with their first rounder would be ideal this year. They could go 2 WR's, TE and CB. A pass rusher is badly needed but the offense sucks so bad that needs to be fixed first. The WR's and TE simply aren't any good. How Engram made the pro-bowl is one of the biggest jokes in NFL award history.
NYSPORTS
back afta dis. . .
- Jun 17, 2019
- 7,993
- 4,459
Doubt dumb Dave Gettleman , who spends and wastes cap space like a drunken sailor, is back and i can’t see how anybody would trade a #2 for Engram. The DL has three players and two are free agents while he has so/so cap space b/c he still has:
- Nate Solder making $16.5 million which is yet another $10 million in dead money if cut
- Golden Tate making $10.8 million which is yet another $4.7 million in dead money if cut
- Zeitler is making $14.5 million so he can’t cut him being Hernandez isn’t playing well.
- Awesome Shepherd is a making $9 million
- Barkley is north of $10 million for a HB and it’s already time to flex that 5th year option to skyrocket his cap hit
- yet both DL Tomlinson and Williams are free agents and going to cost a fortune
It’s the NFL and the team has 5 wins. Playing hard and losing is NOT enough to keep Dumb Dave Gettleman around b/c he gutted the team of talent and wrecked their cap with his directionless management.
Maximus
Registered User
NO should be the easy and clear answer!
As I clearly noted last day or so in a few of my posts since the Browns win, you'll know that that's exactly what I'm concerned about. As unlikely as it would seem in most normal organizations that a Gase would stay, that is the operative word..."normal".
The Jets don't do things normal however and so there is enough of a chance that the knucklehead Johnson's could be considering bringing Gase back that there are many many longtime Jet fans like myself very concerned that this winning streak could influence them.
The only saving grace and I said this as well is that there is an adult in the room and I have faith that Joe Douglass will let his friend Gase go easy with some "dignity" and he'll have the Johnson's ear and won't let them get snowed.
We shalt see come January 4th if these fears of mine and many many longtime loyals like me are unfounded...cross fingers!
While I'd prefer a powerhouse team w/excellence across the board [who wouldn't?], what is needed is sufficiently high competent production.
On offense, QB gets all the buzz and a bad QB clearly can work vs, even to the pt of taking down an otherwise solid team. However, the most excellent QB still cannot singlehandedly force of will his team to the Lombardi trophy. This is not basketball with LeBron/Jordan types pulling the cast w/them.
Translation 1: if the rest of the O squad can cut it +, a decent signal caller is an option until a better one turns up.
Translation 2: We have Bechton. Take Sewell.
Translation 3: If a team will overpay for Darnold now -- and again I like Darnold, not as much as Allen who we could actually have had instead, nor as much as the generational TL who we let slip away, but I do like him --- then take a sufficiently high offer now.
The alternative is to hold Darnold w/better team and deal after his stock rises.
What is sufficient for me?
Darnold
for
SF's 14OA, Niners' 6'8 starting OT + damaged goods $ Garafolo [sp?].
That:
- spares us huge $ for QB at present, which can go into rest of the roster.
- gives 3 young, real studs for OL
- adds a good pick
I like the job Flacco did w/virtually no help and no weapons [at least 1 of our WRs injured almost always].
Gar. + Flac, w/better cast and again, better resources long term,
That's the ticket.
On offense, QB gets all the buzz and a bad QB clearly can work vs, even to the pt of taking down an otherwise solid team. However, the most excellent QB still cannot singlehandedly force of will his team to the Lombardi trophy. This is not basketball with LeBron/Jordan types pulling the cast w/them.
Translation 1: if the rest of the O squad can cut it +, a decent signal caller is an option until a better one turns up.
Translation 2: We have Bechton. Take Sewell.
Translation 3: If a team will overpay for Darnold now -- and again I like Darnold, not as much as Allen who we could actually have had instead, nor as much as the generational TL who we let slip away, but I do like him --- then take a sufficiently high offer now.
The alternative is to hold Darnold w/better team and deal after his stock rises.
What is sufficient for me?
Darnold
for
SF's 14OA, Niners' 6'8 starting OT + damaged goods $ Garafolo [sp?].
That:
- spares us huge $ for QB at present, which can go into rest of the roster.
- gives 3 young, real studs for OL
- adds a good pick
I like the job Flacco did w/virtually no help and no weapons [at least 1 of our WRs injured almost always].
Gar. + Flac, w/better cast and again, better resources long term,
That's the ticket.
Maximus
Registered User
You my friend can think what you want but there is no doubt over the years the Johnson's have thrown logic to the wind and have shown they can easily and I do mean easily be manipulated by football people they perceive as genius's. The Johnson's may be nice guys but they have not a clue how they are perceived by the football world otherwise they wouldn't have made so many of their bonehead decisions they have made over the past 10 years mostly which mostly have flown directly into the fact of logical thought process.
Bottom line is Adam friggen Gase is the cat's meow to Christopher Johnson and it's going to take Joe Douglass to talk him into it and he will be the one to do the deed and let his goomba Gase go as I said in my other post..."gently".
I'm not 100% convinced obviously, this is all going to happen despite what I think will likely occur and so fingers are firmly crossed and will remain crossed till next Monday when we hopefully hear the news that the deed has been done and Gase is gonzo!
JimmyG89
Registered User
- May 1, 2010
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The 49ers can just cut Garapolo during the offseason and it'll cost them 2.8M on the cap. That number is exactly the same if he is included in a trade, so I don't think there is anything there for adding him to a deal for purposes of saving against the cap.
This is a brutal trade for them on all ends. The 49ers would not be adding to this deal, the Jets would be to get back up to 14. If they want Darnold that bad, I could see Darnold + Jets 2nd (34th overall) for 15 (which is where they are now after NE lost last night). I'd say Darnold has the value of a 2nd rounder at this point, especially if the team really wants him. They might even need to add in something else, possibly something around a 4th or 5th rounder to even the deal as well.
That said, that trade is probably to expansive to be something that happens. If Darnold is moved, I would think it is just a straight swap for pick(s). Just looking at teams that could be in the market for him, SF (46), Dallas (47, if Dak is let go), Indy (50), Washington (51) and Pittsburgh (60) are the 2nd rounders that could be out there. With Pittsburgh, if they are not a 1 and done team and make it to the divisional round and lose, I could see where that 1st rounder would be open for discussion, if the Jets add in a 3rd rounder.
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