I agree with any notion that we must get harder to play against and that we need to find more gritty options. With that said, finding the kids that does become that type of player in the NHL is darn darn hard. For every 'attitude' player that makes it to the NHL, there seems like there is 50 that don't or at least don't become anything else than bleak low impact players. If we can get the next Kirk Maltby, we should jump on it. But I am definitely not sold on that its a good idea to spend 5-6 picks every draft on types like that and hope to find someone that way. These guys generally need an opportunity to play and its not uncommon that they are traded before they make an impact. We had Prust. Wayne Simmond. We just got Lemieux. Their price tag isn't horrendous. I do think that Gorton are more likely to find these guys through trade by tossing a 2nd rounder at teams holding guys that look promising a few times instead of going after them on draft day.
Draft 2020 Draft & Undrafted Free Agent Thread: Part V
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Holloway had 0 goals and 1 assist below the hashes last season IIRC. He did play the boards well and actually knows how to us his frame well here, which makes his aversion to go into the traffic areas all the more baffling(His rate of high danger shot attempts was also absurdly low). Even if he was being coached to use his speed, more often than not he would opt for a low percentage shot attempt from just inside of the blue line on a rush attempt rather than trying to power his way to the net or waiting for other options to develop. I saw way too much of this and there were more than a few times where he did this during a 1v1 situation, for me thats a pretty big red flag in the hockey sense department.
I guess in terms of the tools themselves, I'm not really seeing it outside of the size and the feet. He flashes good hands at times, but they're not consistent enough. You can make the case for him to be taken in the low to mid 20's, but I personally would not.
I guess in terms of the tools themselves, I'm not really seeing it outside of the size and the feet. He flashes good hands at times, but they're not consistent enough. You can make the case for him to be taken in the low to mid 20's, but I personally would not.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
His selection could also owe a lot to who is on the board.
There's not getting around there are going to be options with more offensive potential. That's almost a given.
But are they passing Lapierre to take him, or are they passing on Amirov? Are they selecting him over Greig and Neighbors, or are they selecting him over Gunler or Perrault?
The Rangers really like him, but they could have someone who is too tempting to pass up.
And that's assuming he's on the board when the Rangers pick, which also isn't a given.
If Holloway could get 30 points and be a modern day version of a Grind line member, I would take it. Greig and Cuylle as well. But of those 3, I think that Holloway has the greater chance of becoming a second line player. And given the high level talent that the Rangers have, i would have no problem passing on another home run swing and taking the player that can solidify the roster.
I know that this is not the discussion, but I actually think that the steadiness that Lindgren will bring to the defense (or at least my belief) will be more than what Holloway can contribute. But no need to digress, I completely understand your point.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
The problem is, as you said, they don't come around very often. So while the price might be a second rounder, it's not like you can fish for one with the pick and get a nibble.
Lemieux was taken with what would today be a first round pick. Simmonds was taken with a second, but his value when he was traded was significantly higher.
Wilson was taken with a first, while someone like Clifford was taken 35th.
So I don't know if a pick in the mid 20s is too far off, depending on the guy. It's just that sometimes you get someone closer to Wilson or Simmonds, and sometimes the end product is more in line with Lemieux and Clifford.
They don't come around too often. But when they pan out closer to the Wilson and Simmonds variety, the cost is even higher.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
And @GoAwayStaal does have a point that Holloway isn't without his share of risks as well.
The question is whether you think it's enviroment and learning, or whether you think it's a design flaw.
If you think it's the latter, it's that much harder to take him over the other options.
Holloway clearly has his risks. Both you and GAS are right on that. But i like his potential more than a Greig's and certainly more than Cuyelle. He is one of those, and here comes that dreaded word, is a safe, floor level player if it all goes to hell. In other words, I think that Holloway can settle into that 3rd line role that we have just been talking about. Not sure about the other two.
Now comes the question of is he a 20 or 30 point producer. And does he have a shot at 40. To me, the answer is yes to 30 and maybe to 40. But I like his chances of hitting the higher ceiling better than the other two. But would cry of them after the first round.
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I think I'd be disappointed by only 30 points. I'd be hoping for a grindy 45 pointer.
Then he is a second line player, within a few points of being considered lower tier top liner
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
For me, whether it's Holloway, Greig, Cuylle, or someone else in that mold, I'm probably not as concerned about points as I am role. Because depending on the team's system and structure, the points might not be there in a support role. But the value certainly could be.
We used Kirk Maltby as an example. The guy never scored more than 14 goals or posted more than 37 points. But he was a valuable part of Detroit's success for 14 years.
That's the kind of player I am interested in finding for the Rangers.
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
That range starts putting you on the outskirts of Kevin Hayes/Anthony Cirelli levels of production.
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
UnSandvich
Registered User
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Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Mysak and Pytlik was were both good on the PK.
Mysak is interesting in the sense that he switched to the OHL and essentially had the kind of season his supporters thought he was capable of.
Over a full OHL season, his numbers project to 45 goals and 75 points.
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Yeah, looking for a plus second line center out of this draft or offseason, perhaps someone with the potential to step into a top line role if something happens to Mika.
But really the end of the first line caliber guys is more like 55 points, not 45, and if you are only getting 55 you are a low end first liner, which is not optimal.
On a presumed high powered NY Rangers lineup of the future I'd think my second liner should probably be 55 point capable.
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- Jul 16, 2005
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Right, Hayes has scored 42, 49, 44 and 55 at different times.
That's kinda exactly what I'd say is ideal. 30 seems underwhelming.
But yeah a Kevin Hayes is what I'd be aiming for.
Hayes was more of a 3C to start, a 2C now, but maybe surrounded by Lafreniere and Kakko he could suffice as a 1C. He's a good 2C with 1C insurance capabilities.
Yeah, OK, but here we are focusing on maybe the best physical players the last decade. There is also a huge sub-group of gritty hard working players that are sufficiently hard to play against.
Ultimately, I think you must have a general strategy and I don’t mind that our strategy to get more physical doesn’t entail actively looking for physical players with draft picks.
If we list like a group of X number of solid gritty forwards, I think we would see that only a fraction was higher picks and that many of the others has been available from time to time for a cost that isn’t obscene or picked with lower picks. Really taken a long road.
I just think that if we start to look for gritty players in like the 2nd-3rd rounds, instead of solely looking for ability — there is a great risk that we will end up with guys that like aren’t better players than Ryan Gropp.
Ghost of jas
Unsatisfied
I think I would rather not spend a first on the type of support player when you could grab that type of player in the third in the form of Cuylle or Dylan Peterson. I'd rather go for the higher upside player with flaws for the chance the pick goes boom.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I think it depends on the player though and context.
Holloway and Grieg for example are considered first round talents, or at least close. So while grit is a big part of the package, there’s also skill there. But we don’t really hear much about Cuylle being there.
Likewise, if we go that route in the first, it probably reduces the odds we go a similar route in the second and third.
It depends a lot on how you project guys. If you want to swing for the guys with the highest grit/skill combo, it’s going to require a higher pick.
If you don’t see those guys, and you’re thinking a guy who leans heavier on the grit side of things, you probably look for that in more of the mid rounds.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Peterson definitely isn’t on they level right now, I don’t think Cuylle quite has the upside of Greig or Holloway. Especially if you view the latter two as being capable of playing center.
While they are players who could have some overlap, the difference in upside could be 40-45 points vs. someone more in the 25-30 range.
So there is a gap there to consider.
Ghost of jas
Unsatisfied
Agreed, but, I’m more intrigued by the possibility of adding someone like Gunler or Perrault, especially after getting Lafreniere.
50 points gets you to top line production. We have showed that multiple times. So that's your lower end top line production. Buchnevich had legit top line production this year.
45 points has you as a solid second liner, knocking on the door to get to top line.
If Holloway developed that way, providing he is around when the Rangers draft, great. And I would be quite happy with Kirk Maltby production from the 3rd line.
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