2020 Draft & Undrafted Free Agent Thread: Part IV

[Ghost of jas]

You here about people bleeding Rangers blue.

In my experience, I've met four people who personify this at the highest level:

1. John Davidson
2. Adam Graves
3. Brian Leetch
4. Mike Richter

I think the best thing about JD coming back is that he is such a respected hockey person and he legitimizes whatever stance the Rangers assume. He is also gives such huge cover to Gorton to go about his business.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

Trading for prospects is just that.

Why does he have no future? Where is the excess? What RW are knocking on the door?

They already have one, and hope in another one and a current stop gap.

You did when you said it was a good idea to do next year.

This team is not able to tank anymore. It is too talented.

Making playoffs becomes harder when you just traded away a top 6 winger and replaced him with.......??

No one is talking about a Cup next year.

They have a long term top line center. You seem to be conflating a second line center with a first.

Until they actually do something in the NHL they are still unknowns. You make educated guesses.

Except you are giving up a top-6 player for not a long term center. You are giving him up for the promise of another long term center.

A future draft pick and a current draft pick is still just a draft pick. Trading for picks or prospects that have not stepped a toe onto NHL ice is still just gathering assets.

And I am still missing the excess assets on right wing at the NHL level. Can you tell me what they are?

Whether I am for it or against it, makes no difference. My argument is not whether or not a DeAngelo or a Strome or a Buchnevich should or should not be traded. My stance comes from my belief that management is done trading for pure picks or prospects. And if the move a significant piece, it will be for another piece that will step into the line up and contribute. An NHL ready piece.

If you are a playoff team and you trade a big contributor for a prospect, there is the short sight. I have been on record that I actually believe that when the music stops, it will be Buchnevich that gets moved. But it is for completely different reasons that what you are listing. There is no way that this team has a resigned Buchnevich, Strome and DeAngelo. I think it is Buchnevich that goes, but it will not be for a pick or prospect.

I think if 2 of those 3 are gone, it'll be Buch and Strome. DeAngelo, they will try to keep. An offensively skilled d-man like TDA do not grow on trees.

 

[True Blue]

I think if 2 of those 3 are gone, it'll be Buch and Strome. DeAngelo, they will try to keep. An offensively skilled d-man like TDA do not grow on trees.

Agreed on DeAngelo. I think it depends on just what kind of a number he is going to be demanding. But listen, 24 year old defenseman that tilt the ice like he can are rare.

Strome can be a stop gap. That is how I view him. So if signing him for several years while Chytil continues to develop OR the right deal comes along, that is not the worst thing in the world.

And if my two statements from above are true, that make Buchnevich the odd man out. But what he fetches back may be the pieces that are used to augument the high end skill players that exist (i.e. makes the team harder to play against.). Or he is used, either by himself or as part of package, for Trouba's partner.

 

[Profet]

What about Messier?

Summer of '97 knocks him down a peg from "bleeding blue" status.

 

[Edge]

What about Messier?

Messier loved New York, loves the Rangers, and embraced the challenge of what this franchise was facing.

But he also had a long and successful history in Edmonton, so his heart was somewhat split. That's not to take anything away from him, but how can you come from that environment and not have it be a significant part of your persona?

 

[Lion Hound]

Also a few takeaways from this video:

1. For a guy who the Rangers aren't tipping their hand about, their gushing about Lefreniere. He's going to be the pick.

2. Watch that video, and Lafreniere coming down the right side and getting off a shot. Who do you all see?

3. As a follow-up to number 2, notice how the Messier talk is starting to come up more and more. Again, a lot of similarities.

4. JD talks about contributions from kids who aren't even here yet. Point being, this isn't the final product. Please be patient and keep that in mind.

 

[mas0764]

Trading for prospects is just that.

No it isn't.

Why does he have no future?

You think he's getting a long term contract here? I don't.

Where is the excess? What RW are knocking on the door?

I'm not interested in answering silly rhetorical questions.

They already have one, and hope in another one and a current stop gap.

Great. They need one more for the long term. Parlaying an excess asset in Buch to obtain it would be a good idea.

Not that it's the only solution, but we shouldn't be frothingly opposed to it as you seem to be.

You did when you said it was a good idea to do next year.

I never said that. Tanking means deliberately shedding talent for the purpose of losing and increasing your draft position for a rebuild.

I'm saying trade for a specific prospect that we need for the future for an asset that probably makes no difference in us making the playoffs or not.

Making playoffs becomes harder when you just traded away a top 6 winger and replaced him with.......??

Lafreniere? Kakko? And even if it is "harder," it is not tanking.

They have a long term top line center.

They have Zibanejad, a 27 year old with concussion and injury histories.

I'm more looking for someone to grow with our 19 and 20 year olds. You can have both, you know.

Until they actually do something in the NHL they are still unknowns. You make educated guesses.

You are making educated guesses about Kakko's development and whether and how long Zibanejad can remain productive.

Except you are giving up a top-6 player for not a long term center. You are giving him up for the promise of another long term center.

That's what you do every time you make a draft selection or sign a player to a contract extension. The promise of what they can do.

In this particular instance, that promise is more certain because I'm talking about a targeted prospect being traded for on draft day rather a future draft pick which slot or player is completely unknown. There's a difference.

In fact targeting a player like Lundell is way more similar to, for example, if they trade for Clayton Keller. You don't know that he's any better than a 40 point player moving forward either, but you'd be counting on it. Same with a guy like Lundell.

And I am still missing the excess assets on right wing at the NHL level. Can you tell me what they are?

I'm not interested in answering silly rhetorical questions.

My stance comes from my belief that management is done trading for pure picks or prospects. And if the move a significant piece, it will be for another piece that will step into the line up and contribute. An NHL ready piece.

If you are a playoff team and you trade a big contributor for a prospect, there is the short sight. I have been on record that I actually believe that when the music stops, it will be Buchnevich that gets moved. But it is for completely different reasons that what you are listing. There is no way that this team has a resigned Buchnevich, Strome and DeAngelo. I think it is Buchnevich that goes, but it will not be for a pick or prospect.

That may be what management chooses to do, but it doesn't mean your stance is right or that my approach is wrong, which is what you seem to be implying. If they choose to acquire an under-23 center prospect who is in the league, that could be fine too, but it seems to me the easiest way is trading the Carolina pick (which is gonna be -- GASP -- a prospect! if they choose to simply use the pick) and an excess asset - Buch - for another, better prospect. You want a young future top 6 center otherwise you probably need to move ADA.

The problem here is that Buch is not really a big contributor. Not now and not moving forward. I'm not moving Panarin or Zibanejad. As early as this season he's probably in some sort of combo role that amounts to third line minutes by season's end or by next year (if he's even resigned on a cheap deal for next year). The wingers ahead of him on the pecking order will be Panarin, Kakko, Lafreniere, and Kreider at the least.

Buch, as I said, is probably pretty irrelevant to whether we make the playoffs next year or not. If Lafreniere pans out and Kakko steps up, this is a playoff team next year period. If they both bust, then we have a lot bigger problems than missing Buch.

And I said and as you apparently agree, he is not gonna be here long term. He's gonna be moved. So his loss is for like.... maybe 60 games?

I'm ok moving him for a young center who is already in the league, but that logic extends to a safe draft prospect as well. Since you never know how a veteran that you trade for will mesh or play either.

That's a short sight? Trading 60 games of importance for a solid chance at an entire career of a second liner or better is not short sighted, it's the actual definition of trying to have LONG sight.

 

[Profet]

In this particular instance, that promise is more certain because I'm talking about a targeted prospect being traded for on draft day rather a future draft pick which slot or player is completely unknown. There's a difference.

Yeah... the Rangers have never had a top 10 draft pick center not pan out. They are almost always a certainty. These players are all targeted so there is almost no way they would fizzle out.

Lias Andersson
Jamie Lundmark
Manny Malhotra

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Jesus Christ, we sell off half the team have a million first-rounders, get the #2 and #1 pick in back to back drafts, have a Hart trophy Finalist, a guy that could have won the Rocket, and we STILL need to tank. This used to be a legit debate but right now we've reached levels of absurdity I haven't seen.

 

[True Blue]

I'm not interested in answering silly rhetorical questions.

Clearly we are done here when I ask you for facts that will illuminate your response and you cannot come up with them.

I highly doubt that management has your view, but ok.

 

[Edge]

I've said it before, and I will say it again for those in the back of the auditorium:

The Rangers first preference is not to trade roster players for picks and prospects right now.

They would prefer trading for other roster players, or as a secondary option, guys right on the cusp.

Now, if they have to, for a variety of reasons, they will take picks and prospects if that's the deal available to them. They may also move bubble guys for picks and prospects.

But trading established players for picks and prospects will not be the Rangers initial approach with other teams.

 

[mas0764]

Yeah... the Rangers have never had a top 10 draft pick center not pan out. They are almost always a certainty. These players are all targeted so there is almost no way they would fizzle out.

Lias Andersson
Jamie Lundmark
Manny Malhotra

I didn't say that. Everything is unknown, though. They could go sign a free agent and he could be a bust, because the Rangers have quite the history of that as well. Or they could trade for a veteran who busts.

This administration and frankly even the Sather administration has a pretty good track record with first round picks.... when they've kept them. I would have a good deal of confidence in them targeting a guy like Lundell to move up.

 

[mas0764]

Jesus Christ, we sell off half the team have a million first-rounders, get the #2 and #1 pick in back to back drafts, have a Hart trophy Finalist, a guy that could have won the Rocket, and we STILL need to tank.

I have not seen anyone say to tank anymore.

 

[mas0764]

Clearly we are done here when I ask you for facts that will illuminate your response and you cannot come up with them.

Oh I have them.

The question was beyond absurd, though.

 

[mas0764]

And if my two statements from above are true, that make Buchnevich the odd man out. But what he fetches back may be the pieces that are used to augument the high end skill players that exist (i.e. makes the team harder to play against.). Or he is used, either by himself or as part of package, for Trouba's partner.

... but somehow a defensively responsible center prospect like Lundell doesn't fit that bill and is tanking.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I have not seen anyone say to tank anymore.

I can't find the post but I thought you did. Well apologies and thank God.

 

[mas0764]

I've said it before, and I will say it again for those in the back of the auditorium:

The Rangers first preference is not to trade roster players for picks and prospects right now.

They would prefer trading for other roster players, or as a secondary option, guys right on the cusp.

Now, if they have to, for a variety of reasons, they will take picks and prospects if that's the deal available to them. They may also move bubble guys for picks and prospects.

But trading established players for picks and prospects will not be the Rangers initial approach with other teams.

And that's fair enough as long as they address the issue.

But from a fan perspective it's way harder to figure out what value a bubble guy might have to other teams than it is to figure out what Buch might bring when you know they shopped him last draft, you know what he was close to being traded for, and you know where you need to be in this draft to fill that hole.

Like I said, if they move Buch for, say, Clayton Keller, that is also intriguing, but I hardly think as far as long term it's that much more "certain," than drafting Lundell, it's just that he's farther away. Of course they also apparently love Lundell so I'd be shocked if they wouldn't consider trying to get him if he's within striking distance.

At the end of the day, though, if they do not trade Buch (say they trade the Carolina pick and, I dunno, Zac Jones and a future second, and they can move up and get Lundell)..... Buch is still not long for here. Where is he playing? You think he's ok slotting in for third line money, which the Rangers are gonna have to go cheap on, when another team like Edmonton might offer him second line money?

I understand that's their preference to keep a guy like him this year but they are ultimately probably not keeping him or getting equivalent trade value then. In return they get use of him for another season or two.

Eh.

 

[mas0764]

I can't find the post but I thought you did. Well apologies and thank God.

No, like I said, I think given Lafreniere and Kakko's improvement, this team is making the playoffs next year. Full year Shesterkin, probably a 40-50 point Kakko at worst, Chytil should be better, Lafreniere, let's be conservative and say 40 points from him (right there that replaces Buch's production).

I mean, bam, right there, with the full year from Shesterkin, this is a playoff team.

This is not counting on anything from a guy like Kravtsov or Miller either.

Buchnevich just isn't that important to us. And he simply doesn't have a role here long term.

But suggesting we trade him for a prospect is apparently taboo.

Well, tell me how else we can get a long term young 1/2 center?

Because even if it's not the team's preference, I would suspect that some combination of Carolina pick/Buch/Strome/Andersson/D prospect might get us to where we could draft Jarvis, Mercer, or Lundell.

 

[aufheben]

Yeah, we’re drafting Lafreniere.

Holy shit lol. I still can’t believe it.

 

[Edge]

And that's fair enough as long as they address the issue.

But from a fan perspective it's way harder to figure out what value a bubble guy might have to other teams than it is to figure out what Buch might bring when you know they shopped him last draft, you know what he was close to being traded for, and you know where you need to be in this draft to fill that hole.

Like I said, if they move Buch for, say, Clayton Keller, that is also intriguing, but I hardly think as far as long term it's that much more "certain," than drafting Lundell, it's just that he's farther away. Of course they also apparently love Lundell so I'd be shocked if they wouldn't consider trying to get him if he's within striking distance.

At the end of the day, though, if they do not trade Buch (say they trade the Carolina pick and, I dunno, Zac Jones and a future second, and they can move up and get Lundell)..... Buch is still not long for here. Where is he playing? You think he's ok slotting in for third line money, which the Rangers are gonna have to go cheap on, when another team like Edmonton might offer him second line money?

I understand that's their preference to keep a guy like him this year but they are ultimately probably not keeping him or getting equivalent trade value then. In return they get use of him for another season or two.

Eh.

I think last year was somewhat of an exception because they really targeted Zegras and did a ton of homework on him. Thus far, it looks like they were right to target him.

There was also the feeling that this year's team was probably going to be outside the playoffs again, and Zegras was likely going to be ready to make the jump for the 20/21 season. So far, both of those look correct/likely.

I don't know if there's that same feeling this year. While there's belief Lundell could make an NHL squad next season, I also think the team plans to push for the playoffs even more than this year.

I also think that Buch is probably here until they have a better idea of the timetables for Kakko and Kravstov, or until the Rangers are presented with a deal that they feel gives them more balance.

I don't know if moving Buch for a pick or prospect meets either criteria for them.

With regards to the RW position I think there's a gap between what the Rangers might/should/could have some day, versus what they actually have right now --- which is Buch and then a whole lot of mystery boxes.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Wanted to get a temp check on Tyson Forrester here. Yay or Nay with a late 1st?

I personally would be all over him with a 2nd round pick but I think he can sneak into the top round. Skating is ohhhh so horrible but he does so many things well and the wheels can always improve.

Yeah, we’re drafting Lafreniere.

Holy shit lol. I still can’t believe it.

Yeah if anyone had any doubts, that video should clear them up.

JD looked like he was about to cry tears of joy lol.

 

[Calad]

I mean, if Lundell is there, 14 for Buch and the Carolina pick is a no brainer for me.

Even if he's not, I probably do that deal for Jarvis or Mercer too as both can be centers. I think it is that important to get a long term center into this system NOW.

We will not have this chance again, where we can just trade up in the draft. Our picks are gonna be low, and I do not foresee us pawning off too many more assets at the deadline to pick up extra firsts anymore.

I agree if a player we like is available at 14 and edmonton is still interested I'm sure Gorton can figure out a deal there.

As far as the bolded, i couldn't disagree more. I don't see the team being much better next year than where they were this year for reasons i've previously stated, as they will be difficult to address with the cap situation we are in. I think in all likelyhood the Rangers will land a pick in the teens next year, if not better. Not only that, the amount of assets we've collected in the past few drafts/offseasons will give us options at future drafts for trading up as well.

But a lot of that depth is going to simply develop organically or make the roster because it's already in our system.

Fox will get better. DeAngelo will get better. Trouba should be better not tied to an anchor. Lindgren is only going to get better. Lundkvist, Miller, Jones, Robertson, Hajek, et al, are on the way, from that group you are gonna get some good players. The D's two biggest problem, all the analytics show, was Smith and Staal. They will be addition by subtraction. Plugging in the kids will immediately improve the D dramatically.

Same goes for our problems at forward, frankly. There was simply too much dead weight - McKegg was awful, Kakko was awful, Howden was awful.

Getting the terrible players out of the lineup will immediately make the Rangers more competitive, and that happens simply as you insert Lafreniere and Kravtsov, it squeezes out two very bad players. Now, maybe Kravtsov in a rookie year is just as bad as Kakko is, but the point is, he will organically improve. That is not something that needs a personnel acquisition to fix, just time.

Center is where there is no long term solution. Even assuming Zibanejad is a mid-term fixture (4-5 years), he has concussion and injury issues and I do not see him playing at a high level into his mid or late 30s.

Getting a future 1b/2 center is of the utmost importance to this organization. We can pay 140 cents on the dollar, as I've seen posited elsewhere, and we have the assets to do it. Do not clutch a Buchnevich or Strome to your chest worrying about the outcome of 2020-21. They will make the playoffs with or without him and probably cannot win a cup with or without him.

If he can be parlayed to a team who needs him more in exchange for the answer to a long term problem for us, it's a no-brainer.

It is unwise to assume that development and progression will be linear. You would think that with another year of experience comes development and progression, but how many times have we seen players take steps back after looking great one year? Hajek looked awesome in his time last year before getting hurt, he never sniffed that same level this season. MDZ also comes to mind. Kravtsov was touted as one of the best prospects in the league after last season, this year? Not quite as bright.

Yes, losing Staal and Smith will be addition by subtraction, and hopefully the pieces that come in to replace them, as well as players like Barron, Kravtsov, Gautier, Richards et all are able to fill in admirably. The roster is going to be young, and there will be lots more growing pains

Center is certainly a need, and with some good fortune we will be able to find one in the draft (if not a surprise in our system already). But I think you need to temper your expectations just a tad.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

 

[Rangers394]

Be back in a few....

 

[Rangers394]

*walks out of bathroom after "relaxing" and then walks back in after seeing this*