2020/21 Roster Thread

[Striiker]

Kind of amazing how Ghost doesn't get credit for making Hagg look better.

Ghost gets credit for absolutely nothing. Just lies and narratives.

To illustrate this, YET AGAIN, because it's important for people to understand how bad Hagg, AV, and Fletcher are, plus how great Ghost is...

 

[Striiker]

Ghost gets credit for absolutely nothing. Just lies and narratives.

To illustrate this, YET AGAIN, because it's important for people to understand how bad Hagg, AV, and Fletcher are, plus how great Ghost is...

A small adjustment

 

[Beef Invictus]

A small adjustment

This is easily noticed by just eyeballing everyone's play, too. It doesn't require all this fanciness.

That the people running the team are too stupid to figure it out while amateurs can is a huge problem, and until that problem with player evaluation is fixed this team cannot win anything.

 

[Gert B Frobe]

Why don't we just add Bobby Ryan? Problem solved. BOOM

 

[Striiker]

This is easily noticed by just eyeballing everyone's play, too. It doesn't require all this fanciness.

That the people running the team are too stupid to figure it out while amateurs can is a huge problem, and until that problem with player evaluation is fixed this team cannot win anything.

Oh 100%. No stats are required to see this. It's clear as day and beyond debate.

Unfortunately it just needs to be said on here because a handful of people will watch games (allegedly... although they regularly lie, so who knows), see something like this, and then flat make up random narratives that contradict everything that happened.

Worst part is this staff is rotten all the way to the top, so there's really no reason to expect anything to ever get fixed while any of them remain.

 

[Curufinwe]

Why don't we just add Bobby Ryan? Problem solved. BOOM

Is that you, Ed?

 

[Adtar02]

A small adjustment

did you just learn charts and graphs in school????

 

[BigToe]

did you just learn charts and graphs in school????

Great post

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Uh, no, I'm about winning. Playing players who are better makes winning easier than playing players who suck shit, and all our prospects are better off playing in the NHL instead of with Gordon.

Hogg isn't depth. Hogg is trash. "Depth" is something you can rely on, and he's unbelievably unreliable. 1.6 million isn't "pretty cheap" it is double his value, because he is a mediocre AHL-quality dman on his best days.

Yeah, you're all about winning until it gets pointed out that the Flyers' record with Hagg in the lineup this season was way better than their record with Ghost in the lineup.

 

[deadhead]

Yeah, you're all about winning until it gets pointed out that the Flyers' record with Hagg in the lineup this season was way better than their record with Ghost in the lineup.

Not sure there's much causality at work there.

On the other hand, the fact they were red hot without Ghost says trading him will have little impact on the team in 2020-21.
That is, the team's success probably isn't predicated on the 3rd defensive pair.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Not sure there's much causality at work there.

On the other hand, the fact they were red hot without Ghost says trading him will have little impact on the team in 2020-21.
That is, the team's success probably isn't predicated on the 3rd defensive pair.

And that’s really the point.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, you're all about winning until it gets pointed out that the Flyers' record with Hagg in the lineup this season was way better than their record with Ghost in the lineup.

Yes, that is because Hogg had nothing to do with them winning, and he actually held them back. They won despite him. Hogg played poorly. It's very simple and logical. They would have stood to win even more if they didn't choose to drag the team down with an AHL dman holding the team back.

The fact that you can't explain why or how Hogg magically caused this winning, as you have long implied, points to this talking point of yours being fit for the trash can.

 

[Chinatown88]

 

[Beef Invictus]

Not sure there's much causality at work there.

On the other hand, the fact they were red hot without Ghost says trading him will have little impact on the team in 2020-21.
That is, the team's success probably isn't predicated on the 3rd defensive pair.

They've won games with Couturier and Giroux injured too. Should they trade them as well?

Winning with a better player sitting shouldn't make you go "gee, let's trade him!" It should make you go "How good could we be if we used this good player instead of this bad player?"


Amazing how Hogg gets all this credit going one way, but receives no blame for the playoff losses going the other. It's a really remarkable double standard at work.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Yes, that is because Hogg had nothing to do with them winning, and he actually held them back. They won despite him. Hogg played poorly. It's very simple and logical. They would have stood to win even more if they didn't choose to drag the team down with an AHL dman holding the team back.

The fact that you can't explain why or how Hogg magically caused this winning, as you have long implied, points to this talking point of yours being fit for the trash can.

They didn’t win “even more” with Ghost in the lineup. Hey, I’ve never argued that Hagg is more than a 6/7, but maybe you and some others need to realize Ghost over Hagg isn’t a magic formula for more wins.

 

[Curufinwe]

It's pretty weird that Hagg is more controversial now that when he was used as a top 4 dman as a 22 year old by Hakstol.

Perhaps that is because a lot of people incorrectly assumed that Hagg was only in the NHL because of Hextall and Hakstol, and can't deal with the fact that a new GM and new coaches have kept him on the team, even though his usage has gone way down.

 

[wankstifier]

It's pretty weird that Hagg is more controversial now that when he was used as a top 4 dman as a 22 year old by Hakstol.

Perhaps that is because a lot of people incorrectly assumed that Hagg was only in the NHL because of Hextall and Hakstol, and can't deal with the fact that a new GM and new coaches have kept him on the team, even though his usage has gone way down.

I thought it was a temporary thing. We've now got ample evidence that Hagg is historically awful for a NHL regular. The Flyers have depth options on D and, still, Hagg is going to get playing time. It's a shit sandwich that I refuse to keep eating.

 

[Curufinwe]

That's fine. No one is coming to your house to force you to watch Flyer games at gunpoint, whenever it is that they resume.

 

[wankstifier]

That's fine. No one is coming to your house to force you to watch Flyer games at gunpoint, whenever it is that they resume.

All the same, no one is forcing you to read these complaints about the bull shit and act like a righteous fan.

 

[deadhead]

What's always weird is the energy expended over marginal players, VdV, Stewart, Hagg, Amac, etc.
The team doesn't win or lose over these players, they're more a signal of deeper issues.

When Amac is in your top four (as he was on the Islanders and Flyers) it simply means you're a bad team.
If Lindblom stays healthy, Twarynski or Bunnaman win the job, or NAK plays better in TC, Stewart never sees the ice.
If Morin doesn't blow his knee out, Ghost remained a top defenseman or Friedman is actually as good as people fantasize, Hagg would never have been resigned.
VdV played because the alternatives were worse (Luby, Leier) and were out of the league the same time he was.

Veterans don't block prospects, prospects block themselves by not playing well.
Provorov led this team in minutes as a 19 year old rookie.
Farabee played 14:29 a night as a 20 year old rookie in the playoffs.

The problem is some people "know" a prospect is ready even when said prospect has yet to prove themselves, faith belongs in religion, not reality.

In the real world, all prospects are crapshoots, or top ten picks would never miss. HCs have to weigh a number of factors in assigning PT, is the player ready and in what role, will the player help the team win, and can the team afford to let that prospect work his way through mistakes (October v playoffs). So they often bring them along slowly, sheltering them for a while, and gradually increasing their responsibilities. The result is "less talented" veterans play more than fans would like, so a rookie can be protected until he's ready to fly.

 

[Beef Invictus]

They didn’t win “even more” with Ghost in the lineup. Hey, I’ve never argued that Hagg is more than a 6/7, but maybe you and some others need to realize Ghost over Hagg isn’t a magic formula for more wins.

Do you think that winning more with an unsustainable bad process is going to continue long term?

Did you miss the playoffs, where crippling the roster with players like Hogg was a major reason they lost? How come if Hogg gets credit for these wins, you don't blame him for those losses?

Why the hypocrisy? Is it because there is no reasonable or logical way to back up your assertions?


Edit: How about you explain in detail how playing someone who drags down everyone on the ice with him creates more winning. Explain, in detail, how a defensive and offensive train wreck improves either. Explain how they win because of him rather than despite him.

Do those things and then maybe we can entertain your implication that Hogg is responsible for a hot streak rather than a lucky passenger.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's pretty weird that Hagg is more controversial now that when he was used as a top 4 dman as a 22 year old by Hakstol.

Perhaps that is because a lot of people incorrectly assumed that Hagg was only in the NHL because of Hextall and Hakstol, and can't deal with the fact that a new GM and new coaches have kept him on the team, even though his usage has gone way down.

It's because people mistakenly believed that all the talent in the pipeline would inevitable replace him. People underestimated the crippling stupidity of the Flyers. His continued presence on the roster reveals incredibly deep, destructive mindsets towards player evaluation and roster building that transcends GMs and coaches.

 

[Striiker]

It's pretty weird that Hagg is more controversial now that when he was used as a top 4 dman as a 22 year old by Hakstol.

Perhaps that is because a lot of people incorrectly assumed that Hagg was only in the NHL because of Hextall and Hakstol, and can't deal with the fact that a new GM and new coaches have kept him on the team, even though his usage has gone way down.

Yeah, it’s really weird that people are more mad at seeing a player get a brand new contract and a raise, after watching him consistently be among the leagues worst for three years, than they were in his first few years where he was just starting out, when we weren’t even trying to compete and had fewer alternatives.



The only reason he’s controversial now is because people are shilling for the current staff. This should be a thread of 100% agreement, with everyone saying this is horrible and inexcusable.

And for the record, here’s what I said back when Hextall re-signed him after 2017-2018:

Severe over-payment. Worst contract Hextall's done by far.

All kidding aside though, this is a bad signing. The guy played like a middle of the lineup AHLer and got more than league minimum. It won’t make a difference to the cap, but you can’t say this isn’t an overpayment.

Even if someone still thinks he can improve, despite all logic being against that, the fact is he B O M B E D hard last year and didn’t get paid what he’s actually worth.

The biggest issue is it opens the door for Hakstol to continue being a huge detriment by giving him another brick to throw into the washing machine.

When people say "3rd pairing" or "6/7" do they realize that he was used as a top 4 defensemen last year?

And ability-wise he was AHL level.

So he's neither of those things, in either usage or ability.

But Hagg doesn't even have the skill/smarts to play on the third pairing. I don't have high expectations for a 5/6 D, but he doesn't even meet those.

He does nothing at a high level and, even if he did, his complete inability to move the puck is unacceptable for an NHL defensemen. There's a baseline that should be required and he's below that.

I'm 100% on board with the mentality of being patient with players in their first few NHL seasons, but Hagg isn't someone that just needs to adjust and get experience... he has the exact same flaws as he showed at lower levels and there's not much chance he can magically fix that against the hardest competition. Best case scenario for him would be to get carried by an elite player so his damage is minimized, but we don't want our stars to have to carry an anchor around on their back.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, it’s really weird that people are more mad at seeing a player get a brand new contract and a raise, after watching him consistently be among the leagues worst for three years, than they were in his first few years where he was just starting out, when we weren’t even trying to compete and had fewer alternatives.



The only reason he’s controversial now is because people are shilling for the current staff. This should be a thread of 100% agreement, with everyone saying this is horrible and inexcusable.

And for the record, here’s what I said back when Hextall re-signed him after 2017-2018:

Funny how nothing has changed since then.


Hogg is at his ceiling and he is only ever going to get worse from here on out. He should have been traded to any other dinosaur fool.

 

[Bigkarl]

What's always weird is the energy expended over marginal players, VdV, Stewart, Hagg, Amac, etc.
The team doesn't win or lose over these players, they're more a signal of deeper issues.

When Amac is in your top four (as he was on the Islanders and Flyers) it simply means you're a bad team.
If Lindblom stays healthy, Twarynski or Bunnaman win the job, or NAK plays better in TC, Stewart never sees the ice.
If Morin doesn't blow his knee out, Ghost remained a top defenseman or Friedman is actually as good as people fantasize, Hagg would never have been resigned.
VdV played because the alternatives were worse (Luby, Leier) and were out of the league the same time he was.

Veterans don't block prospects, prospects block themselves by not playing well.
Provorov led this team in minutes as a 19 year old rookie.
Farabee played 14:29 a night as a 20 year old rookie in the playoffs.

The problem is some people "know" a prospect is ready even when said prospect has yet to prove themselves, faith belongs in religion, not reality.

In the real world, all prospects are crapshoots, or top ten picks would never miss. HCs have to weigh a number of factors in assigning PT, is the player ready and in what role, will the player help the team win, and can the team afford to let that prospect work his way through mistakes (October v playoffs). So they often bring them along slowly, sheltering them for a while, and gradually increasing their responsibilities. The result is "less talented" veterans play more than fans would like, so a rookie can be protected until he's ready to fly.

Playing the best possible roster, more often than not, gives you a better chance of winning games. It’s really not more complicated than that. Whether it’s a top line player or a fourth line player.

The problem is that we “know” players like Grant, Thompson, Hagg are trash. We think young players are better now, and more importantly, will be better in the long term. I’ll take my chances with players with upside over the players we know suck. This should be especially true if those roster spots don’t make an impact on winning or losing, as you assert.