2019 Off-Season Non-Management Thread - Canucks/Boeser talking 4-5 years, $7m AAV - Kypreos)

[4Twenty]

I would hope we are improving our team by drafting well this year at #10 and doing so in the intervening years as well. I don't think Gardiner prevents us from having cap flexibility over that time - $7M is only about $1-$1.5M too high (i.e. UFA inflation) for what Gardiner brings to the table as a #2-3 D - so I don't think he's a restrictive move. Whereas Edler really kills us in the short term because he's going to be a #4-5 getting paid like a #2-3, meaning Benning is still going to be going out searching for a #2-3 once he realizes Edler is no longer that player. Gardiner at least solves a need for a top 4 D long term whereas Edler really doesn't for more than maybe another year. I can stand spending the money on the top of the line up more than I can on the bottom.

I guess I just have completely different viewpoints of both players.

 

[timw33]

Tons of UFAs especially dmen upcoming next offseason

This is something that is repeated every single year: "Next year's UFA class is insane lets save money for that class".

Then July 1 the year before rolls around and every top player starts signing long term extensions (OEL, Doughty, Couture, McDonough, Gibson, Ellis, Wheeler, Pacioretty, Seguin, Schmidt) then the last 3-4 days before June players start re-upping (Karlsson, Eberle, Nelson, Skinner, probably more) and it gets whittled down bit by bit until an insane class ends up looking like yet another mediocre crop of middling junk.

 

[CanaFan]

I guess I just have completely different viewpoints of both players.

Sounds like. Gardiner (IMO) is going to get overpaid in UFA, but at the end of the day is a quality #2/3 D with good puck skills and vision. I don't have a big problem targeting those types of players vs the crap we've targeted in the past. Edler (IMO) is setting up for an Eriksson-like UFA payday where he completely shuts it down as soon as he has his final contract in his back pocket. His lack of interest in pursuing a Cup with another team vs just being safe and comfortable in Vancouver has never sat well with me. I think he lacks a certain hunger and I don't feel like rewarding that with a 3-4 year deal at this stage of his career.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

D) DO NOTHING AND NOT SACRIFICE LONG TERM OUTLOOK OF THE TEAM TO SELFISHLY SAVE YOUR JOB THAT YOU ARE TERRIBLE AT

You do realize that no GM would do this.

 

[THE Green Man]

Well yes, that would be my favorite option of all. But that isn't going to happen. **** is going to go down, I'm only hoping it doesn't smell *too* bad. My biggest fear is something like the #10 or next year's 1st for someone like Zucker or Gostisbehere, which is what I think will happen if they don't feel they can get a player in UFA.

Insert Kevin Bieksa "going down with the ship" quote here. But in all seriousness, we are screwed.

You do realize that no GM would do this.

Completely, doesn't change the fact that he's going to royally screw the team over long term just to save his job. That being said, it's his fault that he doesn't have an extension already in place due to his inept history as the GM, but it's more on the owners to have a guy at the controls who has no job security. So now he has all this added pressure to make the right moves to make the playoffs, something he's 1/5 in doing and that outlier season had majority of Gillis players left on it.

 

[WonderTwinsUnite]

The idea of trading next year's first makes me sick. Imagine being Ottawa this year, knowing that you suck, and not even being able to look forward to the draft.

We're already going to be bad next year with our awful defense - a Petersson injury (the guy is a bit injury prone thus far) and we're a mortal lock for bottom 5.

 

[NeoCanuck]

God help us.

 

[F A N]

Yes it is.

We dont need to be the nicest place to retire in the NHL, we need to win a Stanley Cup.

It will come back to haunt IMO. The best franchises treat their players well.

 

[JuniorNelson]

The best franchises treat their players well.

If Canucks learn this they will prosper. It's so key! Profound, really.

 

[xtra]

Like I’m completely stunned that edler is being considered as a 4/5 dman here and gardiner as a 2/3

Like gardiner is bad defensively so I hav won idea how you consider him a 2

 

[racerjoe]

I agree you can't fix all our problems at once, but assuming Benning is going to try to make progress, what do you prefer to do:

A) Sign a 33 y/o declining player for 3-4 years (Edler);

B) Sign a 29 y/o low-skill bottom pair D for 6-7 years (Myers);

C) Sign a 29 y/0 high-skill #2-3 D for 6-7 years (Gardiner);


I'm not advocating for C in a vacuum, but given that I think Benning is going to do ONE of A, B, or C, I absolutely prefer C.

Shouldn't A be the obvious choice? I disagree on your assessment of Edler, but lets set that aside for the moment and say those are how each option will play out. Wouldn't you rather have the paind of the 33 year old high paid dman now, when we suck anyway then in 3-4 years when we can hopefully be competing?

 

[krutovsdonut]

Like I’m completely stunned that edler is being considered as a 4/5 dman here and gardiner as a 2/3

i hope nobody is making that assessment. gardner will wilt under the usage edler sees. if we add gardner we will also have to sign someone physical because hutton, juolevi and hughes will not get it done.

 

[CanaFan]

Shouldn't A be the obvious choice? I disagree on your assessment of Edler, but lets set that aside for the moment and say those are how each option will play out. Wouldn't you rather have the paind of the 33 year old high paid dman now, when we suck anyway then in 3-4 years when we can hopefully be competing?

No, because defensemen decline rapidly in their mid-30’s. I expect Edler’s slide to be pretty fast.

 

[polarbearcub]

I see the Canucks adding two prominent d. Gardiner or Myers ( or both) or one of those and trading for another

 

[CanaFan]

Like I’m completely stunned that edler is being considered as a 4/5 dman here and gardiner as a 2/3

Like gardiner is bad defensively so I hav won idea how you consider him a 2

Gardiner relieves pressure much better than Edler, so while he may not be as good under pressure, I think he’s more effective overall. I think his GF metrics bear this out.

 

[RandV]

I agree you can't fix all our problems at once, but assuming Benning is going to try to make progress, what do you prefer to do:

A) Sign a 33 y/o declining player for 3-4 years (Edler);

B) Sign a 29 y/o low-skill bottom pair D for 6-7 years (Myers);

C) Sign a 29 y/0 high-skill #2-3 D for 6-7 years (Gardiner);


I'm not advocating for C in a vacuum, but given that I think Benning is going to do ONE of A, B, or C, I absolutely prefer C.

The thing is we have an in with Edler already, but with Gardiner there is no existing attachment to the city. We're simply a bad team that especially without Edler have a big whole left to fill on LD and Gardiner really the only UFA we can do it, which means if we sign him (personally I don't think we will) it's because we offered to pay more than everyone else did. When you get into that category I think we're better off signing Edler to the 3 year NMC he wanted.

Saying you're concerned about the expansion slot is kind of hollow if you're simply going to replace that protection spot with another UFA like Gardiner.

 

[TruGr1t]

I agree you can't fix all our problems at once, but assuming Benning is going to try to make progress, what do you prefer to do:

A) Sign a 33 y/o declining player for 3-4 years (Edler);

B) Sign a 29 y/o low-skill bottom pair D for 6-7 years (Myers);

C) Sign a 29 y/0 high-skill #2-3 D for 6-7 years (Gardiner);

I'm not advocating for C in a vacuum, but given that I think Benning is going to do ONE of A, B, or C, I absolutely prefer C.

Well yeah, I guess Gardiner's not the worst of some bad choices there. I just don't see the need to sign a defensemen (outside of a top-pairing guy in his mid-20s, which none of these are at all) for a 6-7 year term at likely close to $7M AAV.

I understand why they're going to do it, but none of the guys mentioned are going to make this team better on their own. Even if you brought back Edler you'd need one of Gardiner/Myers anyway to make any sort of dent in our decrepit blue line.

But that comes back to the central point ... that we really blew our opportunity to remake the defensive group by spending legit assets on plugs like Sbisa, Gubdranson, and Clendening. You aren't going to be able to fix it by signing a guy in FA and trading Virtanen. So I don't see any way the defensive group doesn't take a step back next year.

I still think you're looking at an outside chance of getting Gardiner/Myers anyway. The real fireworks I'm interested in is what happens after Benning misses out on both of them and loses Edler.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Gardiner relieves pressure much better than Edler, so while he may not be as good under pressure, I think he’s more effective overall. I think his GF metrics bear this out.

People gets too caught off on his G7 performance and ignore his regular performance.
Every advanced stats will tell you that Gardiner is a very good player

 

[CanaFan]

The thing is we have an in with Edler already, but with Gardiner there is no existing attachment to the city. We're simply a bad team that especially without Edler have a big whole left to fill on LD and Gardiner really the only UFA we can do it, which means if we sign him (personally I don't think we will) it's because we offered to pay more than everyone else did. When you get into that category I think we're better off signing Edler to the 3 year NMC he wanted.

Saying you're concerned about the expansion slot is kind of hollow if you're simply going to replace that protection spot with another UFA like Gardiner.

Well ya but replacing Edler - a player not worth protecting - with a player *worth* protecting makes better sense to me. I mean at the very least, I’d rather watch the Canucks in the next 7 years with Gardiner feeding pucks up to the forwards instead of a declining Edler or (worse) an overpaid Myers.

 

[racerjoe]

No, because defensemen decline rapidly in their mid-30’s. I expect Edler’s slide to be pretty fast.

And in 3-4 years when Gardiner is 33-34 you don't expect a similar decline? Only then we will actually be hopefully trying to compete.

 

[timw33]

Trouba goes for peanuts, and now WPG down a RS d-man I hope they re-sign Myers to save us from ourselves.

Related: Take note of what NYR are doing with their deep pool of young talent, prospects, and picks less than two years into a full-commit rebuild. This is the kind of move you can easily afford to make. Pionk is a spare part that was surpassed by D'Angelo by the end of the year (not to mention after the acquisition of Adam Fox), and the 20th pick they acquired as part of the deal for trading Hayes to the Jets at the deadline.

They still own the #2 pick, and a pair of 2nd round picks (they traded one for Fox), and their own third all in the Top 100.

They are leveraging depth created by properly extracting value out of every non-long term asset on your team, and have finished the same place in the standings as the Canucks have been after actively *trying* to win and not extracting any value out of any ****ing asset.

 

[TruGr1t]

There'd be no point in us trading for Trouba, but that's still a tough one to swallow. Not to mention the Niskanen trade that just went down (he'd have cushioned the blow of losing Edler). I also think that Trouba trade makes it pretty certain Myers is going back to Winnipeg:

Now we just need Toronto to trade Gardiner's rights, or figure out a way to retain him, and we'll have dodged the major bullets.

 

[CanaFan]

And in 3-4 years when Gardiner is 33-34 you don't expect a similar decline? Only then we will actually be hopefully trying to compete.

Who knows, Gardiner has had an easier career to-date and is a better skater and puck mover so there’s a chance he holds up better. And even if he doesn’t, it’s a problem for a later day when we have the depth and higher cap ceiling to have him lower down in the line up. And while I expect he’ll have a full NTC/NMC, he may be more amenable to a move in the intervening years. At least he can’t be more stubborn than Edler.

 

[I am toxic]

I really feel like Edler is getting overrated here after playing one of his best years in a contract year with prime PP minutes. Since the cup run, he has averaged 60 games a year and 26pts per season. He also makes the same brain dead mistakes that Gardiner is accused of. The guy is 33 and he wont repeat last seasons success (except 56 games played).

Time to rip the bandaid off and let the new core lead this team. I don’t want Green having the option of giving Hughes PP time to Edler either

You're the one that thinks BB6 is bad, right?

 

[DonnyNucker]

You're the one that thinks BB6 is bad, right?

Lol no