2019 Off-Season Non-Management Thread - Canucks/Boeser talking 4-5 years, $7m AAV - Kypreos)

[DonnyNucker]

Edler as a player may be getting overrated, but his on-ice importance to the Canucks certainly is not. The guy literally soaks up all types of tough minutes. Even if you succeed in signing a guy like Gardiner you're not even close to replacing the defensive and PK minutes Edler was playing at a high level.

The blue line is pretty much assured to take a step back this year without Edler. It could be even worse if Markstrom regresses. Once Tanev gets his yearly case of the soft tissues this team could be bleeding goals.

The defensive unit was barely holding it together with Markstrom playing out of his mind, and that was mostly due to Green riding Edler like a rented mule.

Sure, maybe we bleed a few more goals. But we are definitely scoring more with a full year of Hughes and Gardiner. We will suck next year anyways so I just want to be f***ing entertained for once. Edler is boring and frustrating as f***. Or would you prefer to see another year of him refusing to pass to Boeser on the PP?

 

[sting101]

So you're blaming Edler for even strength production issues on what has been the worst team with the least goals in the NHL over the past 4 seasons?

Blaming?
He averages 60 games 27pts and 16 ESPts per year (the last 4) and -11. If he was 27/28 i would bear with it and think he could pull through and get healthy but he's breking down and if Hughes runs the PP the 16pts is nothing to replace offensively. The shut down aspect that is gonna hurt but that is only 60games

 

[Hansen]

Sure, maybe we bleed a few more goals. But we are definitely scoring more with a full year of Hughes and Gardiner. We will suck next year anyways so I just want to be ****ing entertained for once. Edler is boring and frustrating as ****. Or would you prefer to see another year of him refusing to pass to Boeser on the PP?

Edler shouldnt be on PP1 regardless with Hughes on the team so its a moot point.

This team’s already horrid defence becomes tremendously worse without him anchoring our top 4

 

[Hit the post]

Exactly, if we don’t get Gardiner we suck another year and the new GM will have a lottery pick in a deep draft. Not sure what all the anxiety is about. Unless of course we trade the 2020 first

Anxiety is if one feels their job is on the line; they're more willing to do something stupid/rash. They've got nothing to lose at that point.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Edler shouldnt be on PP1 regardless with Hughes on the team so its a moot point.

This team’s already horrid defence becomes tremendously worse without him anchoring our top 4

Green would have him on PP1 for sure

 

[Hit the post]

Green would have him on PP1 for sure

He's got 5 NHL games under his belt. Not sure how many NHL coaches would gift him the PP1 spot (in Green's defense).

 

[CanaFan]

I'd much rather have 29 y/o Gardiner for 7 years than 33 y/o Edler for 4+ years. People citing Edler's value in the past few years need to realize we aren't signing 28-31 year old Edler here ... we would be signing a 33-37 year old defenseman who has a lot of wear and tear on his body and is only going to wear down faster if he continues to be leaned on too hard. For a difference of $2-3M annually, it's not all that close for me.

 

[m9]

It's going to be really interesting to hear what happened with these negotiations with Edler. The dramatic overpay on a 2 year deal with a NMC was always the obvious option for both sides, so which side said no to that?

 

[DonnyNucker]

He's got 5 NHL games under his belt. Not sure how many NHL coaches would gift him the PP1 spot (in Green's defense).

Oh I agree. But I think most of us would prefer he was gifted the spot and if Edler is gone its taken out of Greens hands

 

[timw33]

i agree Donny. It's time to shift the prime minutes to the next core group. (16 even strength points the last 3 yrs avg) is nothing much if Hughes can run the PP and we can sign someone who defends well against top lines (no easy task for sure) but its just not worth handcuffing the team over

I don't think anyone is disputing the concept of shifting the prime minutes to a new young core.

The problem is that there....isn't some deep group of young d-men waiting in the wings to take over the minutes, and we acknowledge how difficult it is to find d-men to chew through big minutes effectively. It raises a big question about how the very few good young D will fare if they have to bite off way more than they can chew with no option to scale back their minutes in lieu of a minute muncher like Edler.

Furthermore, the biggest thing is that there is a huge disconnect when we hear Benning say he wants to improve the D-core (and implicitly that they want to compete for the playoffs) and we're all sitting around going "How?" when it involves letting a legit top-4 dman walk without a clear path to effective replacement, let alone improvement.

I think we're in for yet another step back wherein, if Markstrom doesn't play at a Vezina-level, we are not going to break out of this 23rd-31st zone.


PS. You mention he has 16ES points on average per year, that's actually pretty normal and expected. Points by dmen are completely driven by powerplay time.

 

[geebaan]

Edler went from underrated to overrated
Yes he’s a good player who just had a good season.
He’s also 33 with multiple injuries recently and likely won’t repeat the “success” he had the last few years.
I’m willing bet that in 2020-2021 Edler won’t be any better than guys like Hutton or Juolevi

Well you will be massively wrong.

Quoted for posterity.

 

[xtra]

Totally agree
Assume we get Gardiner, it’s sort of the equivalent of the Raptors losing DeRozen for Kwahi. People were too attached to the former and didn’t realize who’s the clearly better player.

IF we fail to get Gardiner, oh well, majority want JB gone after next season anyway.

That’s a brutal comparison.

Kawhi is a top3 if not the best player in the league and gardiner is not even that on the leafs.

A better analogy is like trading DeRozan for Danny green alone.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

I'd much rather have 29 y/o Gardiner for 7 years than 33 y/o Edler for 4+ years. People citing Edler's value in the past few years need to realize we aren't signing 28-31 year old Edler here ... we would be signing a 33-37 year old defenseman who has a lot of wear and tear on his body and is only going to wear down faster if he continues to be leaned on too hard. For a difference of $2-3M annually, it's not all that close for me.

So you're comfortable with having 33-year-old Gardiner for 3 years at $7M when Pettersson/Horvat/Boeser will be in their prime?

 

[The Drop]

Can’t seem to find the draft thread:

 

[CanaFan]

So you're comfortable with having 33-year-old Gardiner for 3 years at $7M when Pettersson/Horvat/Boeser will be in their prime?

Yes, because the Cap will have had 4 years to potentially inflate before that time. As far as I can tell, all of those 3 (4 including Hughes) will need to be signed in the next 3 years, so the critical timeframe IMO is over that time (i.e. within Edler's expected contract). Beyond 3-4 years, I'm less concerned about the Edler/Gardiner contract. I'm also fine with signing neither, but I'd easily prefer Gardiner to Edler if we *have* to sign one.

 

[4Twenty]

Yes, because the Cap will have had 4 years to potentially inflate before that time. As far as I can tell, all of those 3 (4 including Hughes) will need to be signed in the next 3 years, so the critical timeframe IMO is over that time (i.e. within Edler's expected contract). Beyond 3-4 years, I'm less concerned about the Edler/Gardiner contract. I'm also fine with signing neither, but I'd easily prefer Gardiner to Edler if we *have* to sign one.

But how are you improving the team with 33 year old Gardiner eating up $6-7m on your 3rd pair?

The end game here isn't to be able to afford your own RFA's, it's to have a deep team that could contend for the Stanley Cup. I would prefer flexibility in 4 years than being tied to a guy like Gardiner or Myers.

 

[Cancuks]

Tons of UFAs especially dmen upcoming next offseason. All these teams are capping themselves out-something's gotta give. Canucks play their cards right and don't overspend this offseason they could add players like Hall, Toffoli & Josi next July 1st for nothing but money. Not to mention teams like TB, SJ, and TO desperate to unload contracts to get under the cap. Plenty of players will be available for cheap. Just have to be patient.

 

[TruGr1t]

I'd much rather have 29 y/o Gardiner for 7 years than 33 y/o Edler for 4+ years. People citing Edler's value in the past few years need to realize we aren't signing 28-31 year old Edler here ... we would be signing a 33-37 year old defenseman who has a lot of wear and tear on his body and is only going to wear down faster if he continues to be leaned on too hard. For a difference of $2-3M annually, it's not all that close for me.

So you're good with Gardiner at basically 7x7?

I'm not, and it isn't even because I don't like Gardiner. I think he's a fine #3 type guy with a good offensive game. He's just not going to move the needle enough for me to pay him $42-$49M in total salary until he's 36.

There's no point in doing that because a defense anchored by Hughes, Gardiner, Stecher and Hutton is going to get massacred regularly. I guess we could include Tanev for the ~40 games he'll actually play.

The point is you cannot improve the defense in a single offseason from the current starting point. You just can't. So why waste a bunch of money and term on guys like Gardiner? What we should be doing is value bin shopping and trying to ice a moderately average top four that can insulate Hughes if need be. Look for shorter terms contracts on some of the 30+ guys that might take 1-2 years.

Don't sign a complimentary defenseman to a top-pair salary on a retirement contract. The blue line is already messed up beyond all belief so take your shots this coming season and hope you get some defensive depth out of the draft. Or maybe closer to expansion.

 

[Hit the post]

The point is you cannot improve the defense in a single offseason from the current starting point. You just can't.

I guess it's a bit of a moot point but that's the reason why this should've been dealt with PRIOR to this off-season. Better late than never I guess (but Gillis). Has nothing to do with hindsight seeing the ****-show on the blueline the past few years.

 

[CanaFan]

But how are you improving the team with 33 year old Gardiner eating up $6-7m on your 3rd pair?

The end game here isn't to be able to afford your own RFA's, it's to have a deep team that could contend for the Stanley Cup. I would prefer flexibility in 4 years than being tied to a guy like Gardiner or Myers.

I would hope we are improving our team by drafting well this year at #10 and doing so in the intervening years as well. I don't think Gardiner prevents us from having cap flexibility over that time - $7M is only about $1-$1.5M too high (i.e. UFA inflation) for what Gardiner brings to the table as a #2-3 D - so I don't think he's a restrictive move. Whereas Edler really kills us in the short term because he's going to be a #4-5 getting paid like a #2-3, meaning Benning is still going to be going out searching for a #2-3 once he realizes Edler is no longer that player. Gardiner at least solves a need for a top 4 D long term whereas Edler really doesn't for more than maybe another year. I can stand spending the money on the top of the line up more than I can on the bottom.

 

[TruGr1t]

I guess it's a bit of a moot point but that's the reason why this should've been dealt with PRIOR to this off-season. Better late than never I guess (but Gillis). Has nothing to do with hindsight seeing the ****-show on the blueline the past few years.

Well yeah, if you want to go back that's the reason we're in this position. Management has been trying to prepare for this moment since they arrived, but they've acquired the wrong players. We're all familiar with the long line of ineffective acquisitions the were supposed to be "top four defensemen."

They've tried via the draft, trade and free agency. It's just that all the acquisitions have sucked outside of Stecher.

 

[CanaFan]

So you're good with Gardiner at basically 7x7?

I'm not, and it isn't even because I don't like Gardiner. I think he's a fine #3 type guy with a good offensive game. He's just not going to move the needle enough for me to pay him $42-$49M in total salary until he's 36.

There's no point in doing that because a defense anchored by Hughes, Gardiner, Stecher and Hutton is going to get massacred regularly. I guess we could include Tanev for the ~40 games he'll actually play.

The point is you cannot improve the defense in a single offseason from the current starting point. You just can't. So why waste a bunch of money and term on guys like Gardiner? What we should be doing is value bin shopping and trying to ice a moderately average top four that can insulate Hughes if need be. Look for shorter terms contracts on some of the 30+ guys that might take 1-2 years.

Don't sign a complimentary defenseman to a top-pair salary on a retirement contract. The blue line is already messed up beyond all belief so take your shots this coming season and hope you get some defensive depth out of the draft. Or maybe closer to expansion.

I agree you can't fix all our problems at once, but assuming Benning is going to try to make progress, what do you prefer to do:

A) Sign a 33 y/o declining player for 3-4 years (Edler);

B) Sign a 29 y/o low-skill bottom pair D for 6-7 years (Myers);

C) Sign a 29 y/0 high-skill #2-3 D for 6-7 years (Gardiner);


I'm not advocating for C in a vacuum, but given that I think Benning is going to do ONE of A, B, or C, I absolutely prefer C.

 

[THE Green Man]

I agree you can't fix all our problems at once, but assuming Benning is going to try to make progress, what do you prefer to do:

A) Sign a 33 y/o declining player for 3-4 years (Edler);

B) Sign a 29 y/o low-skill bottom pair D for 6-7 years (Myers);

C) Sign a 29 y/0 high-skill #2-3 D for 6-7 years (Gardiner);


I'm not advocating for C in a vacuum, but given that I think Benning is going to do ONE of A, B, or C, I absolutely prefer C.

D) DO NOTHING AND NOT SACRIFICE LONG TERM OUTLOOK OF THE TEAM TO SELFISHLY SAVE YOUR JOB THAT YOU ARE TERRIBLE AT

 

[BROCK HUGHES]

Anxiety is if one feels their job is on the line; they're more willing to do something stupid/rash. They've got nothing to lose at that point.

they started the stupidity from day 1,and the trend will continue until they are gone...

 

[CanaFan]

D) DO NOTHING AND NOT SACRIFICE LONG TERM OUTLOOK OF THE TEAM TO SELFISHLY SAVE YOUR JOB THAT YOU ARE TERRIBLE AT

Well yes, that would be my favorite option of all. But that isn't going to happen. Shit is going to go down, I'm only hoping it doesn't smell *too* bad. My biggest fear is something like the #10 or next year's 1st for someone like Zucker or Gostisbehere, which is what I think will happen if they don't feel they can get a player in UFA.