WC: 2017 Team Sweden

[ulvvf]

This tournament shows why defensive forwards/grinders still fills a function. People think it's a simple job because "any player can work hard". Yeah, everyone can, but that doesn't mean they are gonna.

At least Kruger, Nordstrom, Lundqvist, Klingberg and Everberg are putting in the effort. But in general, this team has never done anything more to win games than what was nessecary. It's too bad Slovakia didn't have a better team in place, or that we didn't end the preliminary round against Russia or USA. That would have helped driving the tempo and intensity.

Ultimately, it's the remaining games that matters. But unfortunately it seems we are entering the quarter finals with bad habits. I worry that Switzerland will outskate us, particulary in the first period. The boys will have to play their best game so far in the tournament, or they are getting eliminated.

You havnt think about that that fits well into what type of coach Grönborg is. Harder for more skilled players to flourish when the game play seems to be to play safe. He should be a coach for a smaller team, there his grinder game would fit better.

Btw, those players you have mention have hardly been close to our best players. I would say a slick player like Nylander have been that.

I do not mind grit type of players at all, i like them, but they still have to be in general good enough, there is usually where the misunderstanding happens. Grit players are great, but why should a good team like sweden force in tons of medicore grit players when we have grit players with skills? On a good team like sweden grit players that are not skilled enough should not be on the team. Those kind of players belong on smaller nations that can not beat other good teams on pure skill. But sweden like their grit players and will always try to force in a couple of medicore ones. So lucky that you have grönborg that share that view.

Plus I think slick players like Nylander, J Klingberg etc, puts in more grit then they get credit for.

With that said, I do not mind having most of those players you mention in whc, most of them are skilled enough for whc. I just argue against having grit players for the sake of them being grit players. I would easily trade J Lundqvist for Panarin or similar.

 

[21]

I would easily trade J Lundqvist for Panarin or similar.

Well, I believe almost anyone in the entire world would do that trade, strange example but I get your point. ;-)

 

[Elvs]

But sweden like their grit players and will always try to force in a couple of medicore ones. So lucky that you have grönborg that share that view.

Please let us know which "skill" players from the SHL or the European leagues you would like to replace the William Karlsson's, Marcus Kruger's and Joakim Nordstrom's with.

For some reason, people think ice hockey is completely different sport now compared to seven years ago. Remember when Mattias Weinhandl and Magnus Johansson made the Olympic team in Vancouver, and contributed with nothing? Any coach with a brain would take a 2006 Samuel Pahlsson over a 2010 Mattias Weinhandl, that's not just me and Gronborg...

Even in todays "modern hockey", there's a reason some very productive AHL players aren't a good fit for the NHL. Just as there's a reason some producitve SHL players aren't a good fit for the WC. Just as some Allsvenskan players aren't cut out for the SHL.

There's no point in bringing playmakers and snipers to a tournament if they aren't cut out for that level. They aren't going to be more productive than the grinders, and are just going to be liabilities when you're playing Canada, Russia and team USA.

Anyone who thinks this is "ancient thinking", must have a difficult time to grasp why Pavel Barber isn't an NHL player. Or why they don't just put sumo wrestlers in net.

 

[ulvvf]

Please let us know which "skill" players from the SHL or the European leagues you would like to replace the William Karlsson's, Marcus Kruger's and Joakim Nordstrom's with.

For some reason, people think ice hockey is completely different sport now compared to seven years ago. Remember when Mattias Weinhandl and Magnus Johansson made the Olympic team in Vancouver, and contributed with nothing? Any coach with a brain would take a 2006 Samuel Pahlsson over a 2010 Mattias Weinhandl, that's not just me and Gronborg...

Even in todays "modern hockey", there's a reason some very productive AHL players aren't a good fit for the NHL. Just as there's a reason some producitve SHL players aren't a good fit for the WC. Just as some Allsvenskan players aren't cut out for the SHL.

There's no point in bringing playmakers and snipers to a tournament if they aren't cut out for that level. They aren't going to be more productive than the grinders, and are just going to be liabilities when you're playing Canada, Russia and team USA.

Anyone who thinks this is "ancient thinking", must have a difficult time to grasp why Pavel Barber isn't an NHL player. Or why they don't just put sumo wrestlers in net.

I would not scratch Omark. The reason why he is bench is because Grönborg think there is to many skilled players when Bäckström join the team. But maybe you should read what I am writing, I said,

"With that said, I do not mind having most of those players you mention in whc, most of them are skilled enough for whc. I just argue against having grit players for the sake of them being grit players. I would easily trade J Lundqvist for Panarin or similar."

So because some skilled players do not make it at the higher level proove that you have to have medicore grinders on the team? Do not really follow that logic at all. Yes some players can look good at lower level but then disapear at higher level, obviously they are missing something in their game then. Then do not bring them then, seems easy? I would still not cut a elite player for a grinder with not enough offensive upside. I would still take Panarin over J Lundqvist, no matter what other players we have on the team. scoring deph is very importent, it is not impossible to win with just 1-2 productive lines, but it most certain help to have 4 productive lines.

Adam Larsson, Hjalmarsson, Kruger etc was all offensive players before they went to NHL. Most of the players in nhl with defensive roles, would have been offensive players at lower level. There are skilled enough to fill a purpose, but in the end they are failed offensive players at higher level, why reward failure?

Lets say you have even better players in the 3 first lines, who would you rather have in your 4th line? McDavid - Crosby - Kane or Lundqvist - Kruger - C Klingberg?

 

[ulvvf]

Well, I believe almost anyone in the entire world would do that trade, strange example but I get your point. ;-)

Not strange I think, sense I have to make it clear. Who is best shall be on the team, what type of player they are, are secondary. Swedish people have a over believe in "balance" out the team, which usually just means in practice putting in worse player on the team. I think grönborg and many would try to force in a couple of medicore grinders even if we would have access to all the players in the world.

 

[21]

Not strange I think, sense I have to make it clear. Who is best shall be on the team, what type of player they are, are secondary. Swedish people have a over believe in "balance" out the team, which usually just means in practice putting in worse player on the team. I think grönborg and many would try to force in a couple of medicore grinders even if we would have access to all the players in the world.

It's an interesting subject and it also depends a bit on how you define "grinders". It is a difference between a physical power forward and a true grinder usually parking himself in front of the net. Not sure if a grinder and a power forward is the same type of player for you?

In WC on big ice with soft officiating (physical play not allowed) I think players of "grinders" type are less needed, you are right. One or two during pp, yes, but you don't neeed more.

When playing on a NHL sized rink in North America (physical play allowed) it's different though.

Then we have different type of grinders, good or bad, some may call Landeskog a grinder but personal I think he is a very allround player. Hörnqvist can probably be called a grinder but he is a very good one.

There is also a clear tendency right now (in the NHL too) where speed is becoming more and more important. I still believe in a balanced team though, mixing skill, speed, size, strength, grinders, power forwards etc, shut down defensemen with offensive defensemen. When Sweden is playing at its best, usually in display when facing Canada it is pure art, the kind of complete hockey I like watching. We may not win always (because Canada is ****ing great) but it's the type of hockey I love watching.

 

[Eye of Ra]

I see people here discuss "grit" players.

Let me tell you this, compare "grit" swedes to other nations "grit" players, the other nations grit players are actually hitting hard every game and playing with great intensity.

Swedes "grit" players are in 9 of 10 cases not physical at all and plays with zero intensity, so whats the point to have "grit" players for us? Look at this years team for exemple, Lundqvist and Landeskog is hitting but why is not C.Klingberg, W.Karlsson, Nordström, Kruger and Everberg playing with any physicality?

And its not like J.Lundqvist is very good or anything.....someone like Ryno is miles better....why not just send the best most skilled players and then make them work hard....

Anyways its strange how soft we are in hockey generelly, we are NOT soft in any other sports and in women hockey we are not soft either....

 

[Bloomfield*]

I see people here discuss "grit" players.

Let me tell you this, compare "grit" swedes to other nations "grit" players, the other nations grit players are actually hitting hard every game and playing with great intensity.

Swedes "grit" players are in 9 of 10 cases not physical at all and plays with zero intensity, so whats the point to have "grit" players for us? Look at this years team for exemple, Lundqvist and Landeskog is hitting but why is not C.Klingberg, Nordström, Kruger and Everberg playing with any physicality? They are just working hard and thats it.

And its not like J.Lundqvist is very good or anything.....someone like Ryno is miles better....why not just send the best most skilled players and then make them work hard....

I agree with this.

Skill + hard work >>> hard work

 

[21]

I see people here discuss "grit" players.

Let me tell you this, compare "grit" swedes to other nations "grit" players, the other nations grit players are actually hitting hard every game and playing with great intensity.

Swedes "grit" players are in 9 of 10 cases not physical at all and plays with zero intensity, so whats the point to have "grit" players for us? Look at this years team for exemple, Lundqvist and Landeskog is hitting but why is not C.Klingberg, W.Karlsson, Nordström, Kruger and Everberg playing with any physicality?

And its not like J.Lundqvist is very good or anything.....someone like Ryno is miles better....why not just send the best most skilled players and then make them work hard....

Anyways its strange how soft we are in hockey generelly, we are NOT soft in any other sports and in women hockey we are not soft either....

You are right, unfortunately it's a bit rare with skilled and gritty/physical players in Sweden, having both in one player.

We have Landeskog and Hedman both being gritty, physical and skilled. Edler used to have both but is perhaps on a decline. Unfortunately I am still waiting for Landeskogs real breakthrough for Sweden though.

Adam Larsson is turning out to be a very physical defenseman, delivering lots of good clean hits, I would have loved him this WC, would have been a perfect complement. If he also gets his offensive play going he will become a true stud.

Peter Forsberg, I miss him dearly, gritty/physical and tons of skill in one player, world class. He is my all time favorit for a reason, I am very weak for complete players. Renberg also get some honorable mentions from me when at his peak, being part of the legendary Legion of Doom for the Flyers. Sundin could also be both physical and obviously with world class skill but for me he was more a strong player vs a physical player, it is a clear difference.

We have players right now very strong, gritty and skilled but not necessarily physical (hitting). Guys like Silfverberg, Rakell, F Forsberg.

F Forsberg is still increadibly underrated and could probably be called physical though (combining with tons of skill).

This is such a beautiful reverse hit from Filip Forsberg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2GCj_eBvfM

another reverse hit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrCHflpt4nw

this is nice...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsBRB3wpMMw

Talking about WC I do believe we have some players being able to step up now in quarters, semifinals and finals though. The games will become more intense now of natural reasons because they are so important.

 

[Elvs]

I would not scratch Omark. The reason why he is bench is because Grönborg think there is to many skilled players when Bäckström join the team. But maybe you should read what I am writing, I said,

"With that said, I do not mind having most of those players you mention in whc, most of them are skilled enough for whc. I just argue against having grit players for the sake of them being grit players. I would easily trade J Lundqvist for Panarin or similar."

So because some skilled players do not make it at the higher level proove that you have to have medicore grinders on the team? Do not really follow that logic at all. Yes some players can look good at lower level but then disapear at higher level, obviously they are missing something in their game then. Then do not bring them then, seems easy? I would still not cut a elite player for a grinder with not enough offensive upside. I would still take Panarin over J Lundqvist, no matter what other players we have on the team. scoring deph is very importent, it is not impossible to win with just 1-2 productive lines, but it most certain help to have 4 productive lines.

Adam Larsson, Hjalmarsson, Kruger etc was all offensive players before they went to NHL. Most of the players in nhl with defensive roles, would have been offensive players at lower level. There are skilled enough to fill a purpose, but in the end they are failed offensive players at higher level, why reward failure?

Lets say you have even better players in the 3 first lines, who would you rather have in your 4th line? McDavid - Crosby - Kane or Lundqvist - Kruger - C Klingberg?

Sweden doesn't have the same luxury as Canada. I'd rather have a 4th line with grinders/defensively sound forwards from the NHL, such as Kruger and Nordstrom, who are used to facing these Canadians and Ameticans on a daily basis, if the alternative is to throw together a 4th consisting of Omark, R. Rosen and Gynge...

If you don't want to reward failure, why would you reward Omark? He's a failed offensive forward at the NHL level, and wasn't versatile enough to contribute with anything else.

I'm not against Omark playing in the quarter finals, but him being scratched isn't nearly as big of a deal as some make it to be. If they play Omark, it should be at the expense of Soderberg, and not someone like Kruger.

 

[21]

Adam Larsson, Hjalmarsson, Kruger etc was all offensive players before they went to NHL. Most of the players in nhl with defensive roles, would have been offensive players at lower level. There are skilled enough to fill a purpose, but in the end they are failed offensive players at higher level, why reward failure?

A controversial unrespectful post from you and I don't like it. Kruger is an average NHL player as it's best, probably even lower. (He would probably do very well in SEL though.) Larsson and Hjalmarsson though are probably among the best shutdown defensemen in the world. Larsson still young but starting to look like an elite physical shutdown defenseman already. Both being able to do more than only being used in PK killing though,both being dynamic.

Leaving Kruger out of this discussion for a while (he is a fourth liner). Yes, Hjalmarsson and Larsson they have slightly different roles than they used to have in Sweden, true, but they are still world class elite players. Every team need a couple of strong defensive defensemen, what's the problem?

It's a huge difference between North American hockey and the hockey being played in Sweden, this is one of reason why Swedish players sometimes gets new roles in the NHL.

Yes, great teams are usually balanced.

 

[Lays]

Can anyone tell me how Lindberg and Lundqvist have played? Thank you in advance

 

[mjlee]

Too bad Klefbom couldn't make it, it would have been interesting to see him and Brodin reunited. Didn't they use to play on the same line in Sweden?

 

[Leafed]

Was wondering what a fully loaded Swedish team would look like..Accurate?

Steen - Backstrom - Forsberg
Landeskog - Zetterberg - W. Nylander
Sedin- Sedin - Nyqvist
Arvidsson - Zibanejad - Silfverberg
Johansson

Hedman - Karlsson
OEL - Stralman
Klefbom - Lindholm
Brodin - Klingberg

Lundqvist
Lehner

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Was wondering what a fully loaded Swedish team would look like..Accurate?

Steen - Backstrom - Forsberg
Landeskog - Zetterberg - W. Nylander
Sedin- Sedin - Nyqvist
Arvidsson - Zibanejad - Silfverberg
Johansson

Hedman - Karlsson
OEL - Stralman
Klefbom - Lindholm
Brodin - Klingberg

Lundqvist
Lehner

switch the sedin line with the zibs line for sure.

 

[EK47]

switch the sedin line with the zibs line for sure.

And he forgot Rakell I'd probably go
Rakell - Bäckström - Nylander
Landeskog - Zetterberg - Forsberg
Arvidsson - Wennberg - Silfverberg
Hagelin - Backlund - Lindholm
Zibanejad, Johansson

Hedman - Karlsson
OEL - Larsson
Hjalmarsson - Klingberg
Ekholm

Lundqvist
Lehner
Markström

Goalies are pretty much interchangeable the sedins decline was to significant although it's still controversial to leave them off. Decided to go with quite a lot of speed.

 

[21]

And he forgot Rakell I'd probably go
Rakell - Bäckström - Nylander
Landeskog - Zetterberg - Forsberg
Arvidsson - Wennberg - Silfverberg
Hagelin - Backlund - Lindholm
Zibanejad, Johansson

Hedman - Karlsson
OEL - Larsson
Hjalmarsson - Klingberg
Ekholm

Lundqvist
Lehner
Markström

Goalies are pretty much interchangeable the sedins decline was to significant although it's still controversial to leave them off. Decided to go with quite a lot of speed.

Fantastic team :-D we will also have to keep track of Klefbom, following his development. His slapshot is incredibly powerful which is nice.
https://youtu.be/7nKfthKLSNo

 

[Willy Stylez]

Can anyone tell me how Lindberg and Lundqvist have played? Thank you in advance

Lindberg has been good, fits well in his role with Backstrom and Nylander. Lundqvist? He's been okey.

 

[EK47]

Fantastic team :-D we will also have to keep track of Klefbom, following his development. His slapshot is incredibly powerful which is nice.
https://youtu.be/7nKfthKLSNo

Yeah Klefbom is good so is Lindholm who I also left off because I thought they were more of the same, I wanted a mix of physicality, offense, defense and skating which I think that lineup covers. Granted I may not have seen enough of Klefbom. Will have to watch a couple of extra Edmonton games next season.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Was wondering what a fully loaded Swedish team would look like..Accurate?

Steen - Backstrom - Forsberg
Landeskog - Zetterberg - W. Nylander
Sedin- Sedin - Nyqvist
Arvidsson - Zibanejad - Silfverberg
Johansson

Hedman - Karlsson
OEL - Stralman
Klefbom - Lindholm
Brodin - Klingberg

Lundqvist
Lehner

Steen - Bäckström - Nylander
Arvidsson - Zetterberg - Forsberg
Rakell - Wennberg - Silfverberg
Johansson - Zibanejad - Nyqvist

Hedman - Lindholm
Ekholm - Karlsson
Klefbom - Larsson

Lundqvist
Lehner

 

[21]

Hmmm, yes, Steen has to be included, of course.

 

[Nebster]

Steen - Bäckström - Nylander
Arvidsson - Zetterberg - Forsberg
Rakell - Wennberg - Silfverberg
Johansson - Zibanejad - Nyqvist

Hedman - Lindholm
Ekholm - Karlsson
Klefbom - Larsson

Lundqvist
Lehner

Lindholm, Landeskog, Rask, Backlund, Burakovsky and Hörnqvist are strong candidates as well, the forward side is very even. I might prefer Landeskog or Lindholm over Nyqvist or Johansson.

On the defence I would rather have Hjalmarsson over Klefbom, Strålman over Larsson and OEL over Ekholm. Not sure about Lindholm but both him and Klefbom could make the cut. Klingberg could be a potential player as well.

These are just my opinions though.

 

[ulvvf]

It's an interesting subject and it also depends a bit on how you define "grinders". It is a difference between a physical power forward and a true grinder usually parking himself in front of the net. Not sure if a grinder and a power forward is the same type of player for you?

In WC on big ice with soft officiating (physical play not allowed) I think players of "grinders" type are less needed, you are right. One or two during pp, yes, but you don't neeed more.

When playing on a NHL sized rink in North America (physical play allowed) it's different though.

Then we have different type of grinders, good or bad, some may call Landeskog a grinder but personal I think he is a very allround player. Hörnqvist can probably be called a grinder but he is a very good one.

There is also a clear tendency right now (in the NHL too) where speed is becoming more and more important. I still believe in a balanced team though, mixing skill, speed, size, strength, grinders, power forwards etc, shut down defensemen with offensive defensemen. When Sweden is playing at its best, usually in display when facing Canada it is pure art, the kind of complete hockey I like watching. We may not win always (because Canada is ****ing great) but it's the type of hockey I love watching.

Washington have had the best PP in NHL for years and it is Johansson that is the closest thing they have to have a player infront of the net.

I would say Arvidsson is a grinder, but he is a skilled grinder, Rakell is another one and Marchand is another one, while C Klingberg or Hörnqvist is not a skilled grinder at this level.

I feel like many swedish people are stuck in a football way of thinking where all the players are on the field at the same time and and there is more specific roles between offense and defense. Hockey is not like football at all, d-men shall not be as defensive as they are in football and forwards shall not be as offensive as they are in football, and all player do not play at the same time. So when a shift happens in hockey, the players that comes in instead shall fill the same role as the one they replace, so if you have 4 Bäckström, why would you cut one for Kruger?

Take world cup and olympics as example, sweden have plenty of good two-way players that produce decent offense as well, why force in a player like kruger that have basically no offensive upside at this level?

Btw defense is mostly organisation, ottawa is a good example of that, with basically the same team, they go from being one of the worset team defensivly to being maybe the best over just 1 summer. People should stop overrating defense when it comes to comparing players and stop forcing in failed offensive players that have manage to survive in NHL in a less demanding defensive role, that is just rewarding failure, and the ones that actually succed in the more demanding role get punish for it.

I think the OEL and Klingberg pair worked just fine in the practice games and Josi and Ellis works just fine in the sc playoff.

 

[ulvvf]

A controversial unrespectful post from you and I don't like it. Kruger is an average NHL player as it's best, probably even lower. (He would probably do very well in SEL though.) Larsson and Hjalmarsson though are probably among the best shutdown defensemen in the world. Larsson still young but starting to look like an elite physical shutdown defenseman already. Both being able to do more than only being used in PK killing though,both being dynamic.

Leaving Kruger out of this discussion for a while (he is a fourth liner). Yes, Hjalmarsson and Larsson they have slightly different roles than they used to have in Sweden, true, but they are still world class elite players. Every team need a couple of strong defensive defensemen, what's the problem?

It's a huge difference between North American hockey and the hockey being played in Sweden, this is one of reason why Swedish players sometimes gets new roles in the NHL.

Yes, great teams are usually balanced.

But it is true, they are failed offensive players that have manage to survive in a less demanding role. It is much easier to be destructive than constructive.

What is the problem? The problem is that the players you see as offensive players can do that defensive job just as good if not better, so no need for failed offensive players in general. Just look at Karlsson, he has acted more or less like a shutdown d this year and have done that better than most of the best regular shutdown d in the league.

That is why most of the shutdown players at lower level never reach the highest level, and there is usually the socalled failed offensive players that take that role at the highest level. Because the failed offensive player are still better in that role then the shutwdon players from lower level. So the concslussion is that the failed offensive players are proof of that offensive players do the defense job better. So there is absolutly no reason to believe that the ones that actually succed in the more demanding constructive role wouldnt also succed in the less demanding defensive role.

 

[jfc64]

Was wondering what a FULLY LOADED Swedish team would look like..

Steen - Backstrom - Forsberg
Landeskog - Zetterberg - W. Nylander
Sedin- Sedin - Nyqvist
Arvidsson - Zibanejad - Silfverberg
Johansson

Hedman - Karlsson
OEL - Stralman
Klefbom - Lindholm
Brodin - Klingberg

Lundqvist
Lehner

Alexander Steen - Nicklas Bäckström - William Nylander
Rickard Rakell - Alexander Wennberg - Filip Forsberg
Marcus Johansson - Mikael Backlund - Jakob Silfverberg
Gabriel Landeskog - Mika Zibanejad - Henrik Zetterberg
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin

Hampus Lindholm - Erik Karlsson
Victor Hedman - Adam Larsson
Mattias Ekholm - Niklas Hjalmarsson
Oliver Ekman Larsson - John Klingberg

Henrik Lundqvist
Jacob Markström
Robin Lehner


Taxi Squad:

Patrik Berglund - Victor Rask - Elias Lindholm
Jonas Brodin - Anton Strålman
Viktor Fasth