WJC: 2017 Canada Roster Talk - Part 1

[Halfy]

If you predict Logan Stanley to be on the team, be prepared to be wrong.

If you predict him to be on the team and you're right, be prepared to be scared.

 

[Halfy]

Seems like a lot of high end offensive players available to hockey Canada this year, hopefully they bring the right guys. Leaving guys like Steel and Girard at home would be a mistake.

 

[Intangiblezz]

I have been going back and forth on this team for a while. Hoping that Crouse and Beauvillier get released and Patrick and Bean are healthy:

Pierre-Luc Dubois - Dylan Strome - Taylor Raddysh
Tyson Jost - Mat Barzal - Anthony Beauvillier
Tyler Benson - Sam Steel - Nolan Patrick
Lawson Crouse - Michael McLeod - Mitchell Stephens
*Nick Roy/Anthony Cirelli

Thomas Chabot - Noah Juulsen
Jeremy Lauzon - Phillip Myers
Sam Girard - Jake Bean
*Kale Clague/Dante Fabbro

Carter Hart
Connor Ingram

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

Any chance Michael McNiven is taken as one of the goalies?

 

[86Habs]

McLeod is my least favourite of the four centres. Never liked what I saw from him internationally and he is having the least impressive year of the four thus far (superficially at least). Sounds more like a utility payer than a centre. It will depend on what Hockey Canada wants. McLeod has speed, Roy has size, Steel/Cirelli bring more offence.

Keep in mind that Alexander Nylander played on McLeod's wing last year so any drop-off in output may have something to do with Nylander moving on from the OHL. Nathan Bastian, a big power forward and McLeod's usual linemate from Mississauga, would also be worth a look. Agreed that McLeod would likely find himself in a depth role on Team Canada - bottom 6 or 13th forward, where he could be useful.

 

[JackSlater]

Keep in mind that Alexander Nylander played on McLeod's wing last year so any drop-off in output may have something to do with Nylander moving on from the OHL. Nathan Bastian, a big power forward and McLeod's usual linemate from Mississauga, would also be worth a look. Agreed that McLeod would likely find himself in a depth role on Team Canada - bottom 6 or 13th forward, where he could be useful.

I like his toolset and see how that could be useful, but I am not impressed enough if he has to be used as a centre. Unimpressive scoring, especially given that he has a quality goal scorer (Tippett) on the team. Roy is putting up points (30 in 18) on a weak team (next best scorer is a defenceman with 17 points) and has played in a defenive role for Canada before. Good size as well. Steel has 41 points in 19 games, so that is obviously impressive. For him it depends on what Canada wants from its dept centres I suppose. Cirelli is having a good year as well, though he's smaller and slower than McLeod obviously. I he can play wing his chances are probably significantly bolstered.

With McLeod I can see that many posters are high on him and I just want to understand why. I basically never watch OHL games so I'm certainly not well versed in his play, but I am not overly impressed with him in the situations (playing for Canada, super series) when I do see him. The numbers aren't great either. He has the highest draft position of McLeod/Steel/Roy/Cirelli at least, and Hockey Canada likely doesn't view that as a negative.

 

[86Habs]

I like his toolset and see how that could be useful, but I am not impressed enough if he has to be used as a centre. Unimpressive scoring, especially given that he has a quality goal scorer (Tippett) on the team. Roy is putting up points (30 in 18) on a weak team (next best scorer is a defenceman with 17 points) and has played in a defenive role for Canada before. Good size as well. Steel has 41 points in 19 games, so that is obviously impressive. For him it depends on what Canada wants from its dept centres I suppose. Cirelli is having a good year as well, though he's smaller and slower than McLeod obviously. I he can play wing his chances are probably significantly bolstered.

With McLeod I can see that many posters are high on him and I just want to understand why. I basically never watch OHL games so I'm certainly not well versed in his play, but I am not overly impressed with him in the situations (playing for Canada, super series) when I do see him. The numbers aren't great either. He has the highest draft position of McLeod/Steel/Roy/Cirelli at least, and Hockey Canada likely doesn't view that as a negative.

He's a classic "toolsy" player that will, in all likelihood, take several years to develop before being an impactful player at the NHL level. The higher draft position speaks to his tools (elite skating ability, pro size and frame, good puckhandling skills, plus the desire/drive/work ethic/attitude) that should eventually make him at least a decent NHLer. I've seen him live a few times and he's always been very visible simply due to his skating ability.

As far as Team Canada goes, I wouldn't say he's someone you would want converting to the wing. He's not a good goal scorer, not overly creative offensively, his shot isn't a strength, and honestly he's probably never played the wing in his life. He tries to do too much at times and playing off of others isn't a strength. If we're running three scoring lines plus a dedicated defensive/possession line, then Roy is probably our man for that 4th line and I'd look to Steel for that 3rd line scoring role. I mean, their numbers can speak for the themselves as can Roy's history with TC. Based on the discussion above Cirelli can likely move over to the wing much easier than McLeod (which makes sense given his skillset). I would like McLeod more on the international ice surface where his skating ability would be a more valuable asset. It wouldn't be the end of the world if he doesn't crack the roster, I'm just trying to give some perspective on what he brings to the table. He reminds me a bit of Jason Dickinson, who can do a lot of good things but nothing really outstanding, and never ended up finding a roster spot on TC.

 

[JesseHenry9]

He's a classic "toolsy" player that will, in all likelihood, take several years to develop before being an impactful player at the NHL level. The higher draft position speaks to his tools (elite skating ability, pro size and frame, good puckhandling skills, plus the desire/drive/work ethic/attitude) that should eventually make him at least a decent NHLer. I've seen him live a few times and he's always been very visible simply due to his skating ability.

As far as Team Canada goes, I wouldn't say he's someone you would want converting to the wing. He's not a good goal scorer, not overly creative offensively, his shot isn't a strength, and honestly he's probably never played the wing in his life. He tries to do too much at times and playing off of others isn't a strength. If we're running three scoring lines plus a dedicated defensive/possession line, then Roy is probably our man for that 4th line and I'd look to Steel for that 3rd line scoring role. I mean, their numbers can speak for the themselves as can Roy's history with TC. Based on the discussion above Cirelli can likely move over to the wing much easier than McLeod (which makes sense given his skillset). I would like McLeod more on the international ice surface where his skating ability would be a more valuable asset. It wouldn't be the end of the world if he doesn't crack the roster, I'm just trying to give some perspective on what he brings to the table. He reminds me a bit of Jason Dickinson, who can do a lot of good things but nothing really outstanding, and never ended up finding a roster spot on TC.

Very well said about McLeod, I think if he makes the team its as a Darren Helm type role. All depends in which style the coaching staff wishes you go towards. Alot of cuts are going to be very close calls. Unfortunately I find they usually steer away from players who were not on the radar last year but have picked up steam so far this year. Last year I was very surprised Francis Perron didn't make the team, let alone get invited. He was probably the best forward in junior hockey next to Marner(who did not do anything in the WJC until the third period against Finland). Same goes for Connor Garland for the USA. There is always going to be controversy with cuts but I wish those who have hit the ground running should get a closer look.

 

[JesseHenry9]

You look at Brendan Perlini for example from last years team, probably a safe pick if you had picked the team a year in advance. But he looked so far away from a 19 year old, 12th overall pick in that tournament.

 

[86Habs]

You look at Brendan Perlini for example from last years team, probably a safe pick if you had picked the team a year in advance. But he looked so far away from a 19 year old, 12th overall pick in that tournament.

Yeah, Perlini sucked, but Lowry didn't exactly put him in a position to succeed bouncing him between first line minutes (which were undeserved) and 4th line/13th forward (which can sap confidence if your attitude/focus aren't aligned with that role). Perlini was also struggling in Niagara at the time and largely had a poor season all told for, as you say, a 12th overall pick at 19 yrs old.

I've come to realize that coaching is such an important factor in these tournaments. What do you think guys like Konecny and Stephens (who ran roughshod over their opponents when Lowry gave them the courtesy of playing a shift) were thinking while stapled to the bench last year while Virtanen and Perlini barely left the ice against Finland despite taking stupid penalty after stupid penalty? It must have been infuriating. I take solace in the fact that Konecny has been vindicated a year later by keeping his eye on the ball and is now playing top-6 in Philly, while Virtanen has basically become the poster boy for prospect mismanagement.

 

[JackSlater]

He's a classic "toolsy" player that will, in all likelihood, take several years to develop before being an impactful player at the NHL level. The higher draft position speaks to his tools (elite skating ability, pro size and frame, good puckhandling skills, plus the desire/drive/work ethic/attitude) that should eventually make him at least a decent NHLer. I've seen him live a few times and he's always been very visible simply due to his skating ability.

As far as Team Canada goes, I wouldn't say he's someone you would want converting to the wing. He's not a good goal scorer, not overly creative offensively, his shot isn't a strength, and honestly he's probably never played the wing in his life. He tries to do too much at times and playing off of others isn't a strength. If we're running three scoring lines plus a dedicated defensive/possession line, then Roy is probably our man for that 4th line and I'd look to Steel for that 3rd line scoring role. I mean, their numbers can speak for the themselves as can Roy's history with TC. Based on the discussion above Cirelli can likely move over to the wing much easier than McLeod (which makes sense given his skillset). I would like McLeod more on the international ice surface where his skating ability would be a more valuable asset. It wouldn't be the end of the world if he doesn't crack the roster, I'm just trying to give some perspective on what he brings to the table. He reminds me a bit of Jason Dickinson, who can do a lot of good things but nothing really outstanding, and never ended up finding a roster spot on TC.

This all sounds good, but the concern for me is if he cannot move to the wing. We can assume that Strome and Barzal are gong to get the top two centre spots. That leaves two spots. Stephens played a role similar to a traditional third line centre last year and was quite good when given the chance. I don't see why he wouldn't take that role back. If there is only one centre spot left... I don't see a strong case for McLeod. It depends on what the coaching staff wants, but it looks like Steel/Cirelli/Roy are all having better years. If they want a third scoring line, which is likely, then Steel/Cirelli/Roy all seem like better bets. If they want a more defensive line, Roy can handle that role (good defensively and on faceoffs) and his size (6'4, 200+) is an asset on the junior level on North American ice. I suppose the camp is going to be what really decides things.

 

[JesseHenry9]

Yeah, Perlini sucked, but Lowry didn't exactly put him in a position to succeed bouncing him between first line minutes (which were undeserved) and 4th line/13th forward (which can sap confidence if your attitude/focus aren't aligned with that role). Perlini was also struggling in Niagara at the time and largely had a poor season all told for, as you say, a 12th overall pick at 19 yrs old.

I've come to realize that coaching is such an important factor in these tournaments. What do you think guys like Konecny and Stephens (who ran roughshod over their opponents when Lowry gave them the courtesy of playing a shift) were thinking while stapled to the bench last year while Virtanen and Perlini barely left the ice against Finland despite taking stupid penalty after stupid penalty? It must have been infuriating. I take solace in the fact that Konecny has been vindicated a year later by keeping his eye on the ball and is now playing top-6 in Philly, while Virtanen has basically become the poster boy for prospect mismanagement.

Exactly, I had a hard time figuring out if Virtanen was playing for Finland or Canada. Brayden Point was also just average..... Without the Chabot - Hicketts paring and the energy line of Crouse - Konecny - Stephens and scoring help from Strome/Barzal, that tournament could have went way worse. If that's even possible. Back to your point, Marner, Strome, Point, Perlini, Virtanen never missed a PP or last minute shift all tournament... As bad as they were, the coaching was equally responsible for an embarrassing display. I loved the way Guy Boucher coached the team, focused so much on the personal aspects of the game, oh and you dont wanna play? Perfect ill throw someone over the boards that would do anything to win.(Regardless of who you are) Pat Quinn was another great coach for a junior team.

 

[86Habs]

This all sounds good, but the concern for me is if he cannot move to the wing. We can assume that Strome and Barzal are gong to get the top two centre spots. That leaves two spots. Stephens played a role similar to a traditional third line centre last year and was quite good when given the chance. I don't see why he wouldn't take that role back. If there is only one centre spot left... I don't see a strong case for McLeod. It depends on what the coaching staff wants, but it looks like Steel/Cirelli/Roy are all having better years. If they want a third scoring line, which is likely, then Steel/Cirelli/Roy all seem like better bets. If they want a more defensive line, Roy can handle that role (good defensively and on faceoffs) and his size (6'4, 200+) is an asset on the junior level on North American ice. I suppose the camp is going to be what really decides things.

It's safe to assume at this point that he won't / can't be moved to the wing. Looking at the depth chart we're a bit deeper at center now that Strome and Barzal are in the picture than on the wing. Moving Stephens (who is also having a good offensive year) over to RW wouldn't be out of the question if performance at camp dictates that two of Roy/Steel/McLeod/Cirelli belong on the team. I mean, honestly I think Stephens offers a little more on Barzal's right side than, say, Gauthier. If that's the case, I'd still go with Steel (3rd scoring line) and Roy (defensive/possession) to round out my centers, move Cirelli to the wing if camp performance justifies it, and coach's decision on whether McLeod would be a good fit as the 13th forward.

Say:

Dubois - Strome - Raddysh
Jost - Barzal - Stephens
Cirelli - Steel - Gauthier
xxx - Roy - xxx
xxx

Italicized are the locks, with Dubois, Raddysh, Roy, Steel, and Cirelli (in that order) being good to very good bets.

 

[86Habs]

Exactly, I had a hard time figuring out if Virtanen was playing for Finland or Canada. Brayden Point was also just average..... Without the Chabot - Hicketts paring and the energy line of Crouse - Konecny - Stephens and scoring help from Strome/Barzal, that tournament could have went way worse. If that's even possible. Back to your point, Marner, Strome, Point, Perlini, Virtanen never missed a PP or last minute shift all tournament... As bad as they were, the coaching was equally responsible for an embarrassing display. I loved the way Guy Boucher coached the team, focused so much on the personal aspects of the game, oh and you dont wanna play? Perfect ill throw someone over the boards that would do anything to win.(Regardless of who you are) Pat Quinn was another great coach for a junior team.

In all fairness to Point, I believe he was playing injured last year. Which of course raises the question as to why he was receiving so much ice time when there were healthy bodies on the bench. The more I reflect on it, the more I believe Lowry's coaching was the most inept I have ever seen on display at the WJHCs for Canada. Worse even than the Spott debacle of 2013.

 

[hersky77]

In all fairness to Point, I believe he was playing injured last year. Which of course raises the question as to why he was receiving so much ice time when there were healthy bodies on the bench. The more I reflect on it, the more I believe Lowry's coaching was the most inept I have ever seen on display at the WJHCs for Canada. Worse even than the Spott debacle of 2013.

Spott was awful, the fact that he leaned on Ryan bloody Murphy in every situation. The worst coaching job ive ever seen, and ive been watching this tournament religiously since 2005.

 

[JackSlater]

Exactly, I had a hard time figuring out if Virtanen was playing for Finland or Canada. Brayden Point was also just average..... Without the Chabot - Hicketts paring and the energy line of Crouse - Konecny - Stephens and scoring help from Strome/Barzal, that tournament could have went way worse. If that's even possible. Back to your point, Marner, Strome, Point, Perlini, Virtanen never missed a PP or last minute shift all tournament... As bad as they were, the coaching was equally responsible for an embarrassing display. I loved the way Guy Boucher coached the team, focused so much on the personal aspects of the game, oh and you dont wanna play? Perfect ill throw someone over the boards that would do anything to win.(Regardless of who you are) Pat Quinn was another great coach for a junior team.

This is the first time I've seen someone speak positively about Hicketts' performance last year. Also not sure what team you mean that Boucher coached. He did well with the U18 team I suppose.

It's safe to assume at this point that he won't / can't be moved to the wing. Looking at the depth chart we're a bit deeper at center now that Strome and Barzal are in the picture than on the wing. Moving Stephens (who is also having a good offensive year) over to RW wouldn't be out of the question if performance at camp dictates that two of Roy/Steel/McLeod/Cirelli belong on the team. I mean, honestly I think Stephens offers a little more on Barzal's right side than, say, Gauthier. If that's the case, I'd still go with Steel (3rd scoring line) and Roy (defensive/possession) to round out my centers, move Cirelli to the wing if camp performance justifies it, and coach's decision on whether McLeod would be a good fit as the 13th forward.

Say:

Dubois - Strome - Raddysh
Jost - Barzal - Stephens
Cirelli - Steel - Gauthier
xxx - Roy - xxx
xxx

Italicized are the locks, with Dubois, Raddysh, Roy, Steel, and Cirelli (in that order) being good to very good bets.

That looks pretty reasonable. I've said it several times, but I can't remember a more wide open team Canada. It will be interesting to even see who is invited to camp in a week or so.

 

[86Habs]

That looks pretty reasonable. I've said it several times, but I can't remember a more wide open team Canada. It will be interesting to even see who is invited to camp in a week or so.

It is indeed, especially if you assume that Beauvillier, Crouse and Chycrun aren't loaned out. All three would help Team Canada tremendously of course.

 

[JackSlater]

It is indeed, especially if you assume that Beauvillier, Crouse and Chycrun aren't loaned out. All three would help Team Canada tremendously of course.

I expect none, and honestly I would only be happy about one being sent. Beauvillier is great and would be a very welcome addition as the top line LW. Chychrun is a very good young player who could help the team, but I don't want a player born and raised in the United States on team Canada. Not looking to get into that issue though. Crouse is a nice addition in theory, but honestly I would be concerned about how Canada would use him. If Canada thrust him, as an NHL loaned player, into a prominent scoring role I could see a near Virtanen situation. Crouse never displayed elite scoring in junior, and he is currently being developed by Arizona to be a career third/fourth liner. He is absolutely the best possible option for Canada's defensive line or even a big time possession line, but at this point he's not a guy to depend on for scoring and I fear that Canada would use him in that role as a third year returnee coming from the NHL.

 

[86Habs]

I expect none, and honestly I would only be happy about one being sent. Beauvillier is great and would be a very welcome addition as the top line LW. Chychrun is a very good young player who could help the team, but I don't want a player born and raised in the United States on team Canada. Not looking to get into that issue though. Crouse is a nice addition in theory, but honestly I would be concerned about how Canada would use him. If Canada thrust him, as an NHL loaned player, into a prominent scoring role I could see a near Virtanen situation. Crouse never displayed elite scoring in junior, and he is currently being developed by Arizona to be a career third/fourth liner. He is absolutely the best possible option for Canada's defensive line or even a big time possession line, but at this point he's not a guy to depend on for scoring and I fear that Canada would use him in that role as a third year returnee coming from the NHL.

Yeah, that's certainly a good point and at both the 2015 and 2016 tournaments the players who were loaned out - Lazar and Virtanen - were certainly shoe-horned into top-6 roles which they probably weren't really cut out for. I have heard rumblings that the GMs of both NHL teams asked for "guarantees" from the TC coaches that their players would play top-6 minutes, which was borne out at the tournaments. If this is the case, a dangerous precedent has certainly been set and future TC coaches should either tread very carefully or frankly have the balls to stand up to the NHL GMs. Honestly, as a TC I've never been as frustrated as I was at last year's tournament seeing Virtanen out there, every second shift, accomplishing nothing.

 

[PecnoTrunk]

I expect none, and honestly I would only be happy about one being sent. Beauvillier is great and would be a very welcome addition as the top line LW. Chychrun is a very good young player who could help the team, but I don't want a player born and raised in the United States on team Canada. Not looking to get into that issue though. Crouse is a nice addition in theory, but honestly I would be concerned about how Canada would use him. If Canada thrust him, as an NHL loaned player, into a prominent scoring role I could see a near Virtanen situation. Crouse never displayed elite scoring in junior, and he is currently being developed by Arizona to be a career third/fourth liner. He is absolutely the best possible option for Canada's defensive line or even a big time possession line, but at this point he's not a guy to depend on for scoring and I fear that Canada would use him in that role as a third year returnee coming from the NHL.

You are aware that Jacob has already played for Canada at the iihf u18 and therefore locked

So I do hope that Arizona releases Jacob for u20

 

[JesseHenry9]

This is the first time I've seen someone speak positively about Hicketts' performance last year. Also not sure what team you mean that Boucher coached. He did well with the U18 team I suppose.


I guess you did not watch 2008-2009 team when they won gold. Quinn(HC) with Boucher who took care of the defense side of the bench. Not a chance anyone was getting through the 1-3-1 and LSL. Last year Hicketts and Chabot were all we had going on the back end, I had to watch every game 2 or 3 times and I thought Hicketts was our rock on the back end. Is he ideally someone you want on your top pair? No, unfortunately we didn't have the D depth like previous years.

 

[JackSlater]

You are aware that Jacob has already played for Canada at the iihf u18 and therefore locked

So I do hope that Arizona releases Jacob for u20

That has nothing to do with what I said. I am well aware that Chychrun's only international option is Canada. I simply don't want Chychrun on team Canada, just like I said in that post.

I guess you did not watch 2008-2009 team when they won gold. Quinn(HC) with Boucher who took care of the defense side of the bench. Not a chance anyone was getting through the 1-3-1 and LSL. Last year Hicketts and Chabot were all we had going on the back end, I had to watch every game 2 or 3 times and I thought Hicketts was our rock on the back end. Is he ideally someone you want on your top pair? No, unfortunately we didn't have the D depth like previous years.

We have very different perspectives. I wasn't particularly impressed with the defence in 2009, but I do like Boucher as a coach. I wanted Hockey Canada to use him at the World Championships in the past. Hicketts was just plain bad last year. I'm really surprised to see anyone say something positive about him. He was ripped by basically everyone last year, and rightfully so.

 

[SNMU]

Dubois - Strome - Gauthier
Fontin - McCleod - Steel
Jost - Barzal - Raddysh
Benson - Stephens - Merkley
Cirelli

Chabot - Juulsen
Girard - Bean
Lauzon - Myers
Clague

Hart
Ingram

 

[JesseHenry9]

That has nothing to do with what I said. I am well aware that Chychrun's only international option is Canada. I simply don't want Chychrun on team Canada, just like I said in that post.


Well as you see every year with the WJC, no matter how good of a team you might have, there are tons of momentum swings and you cant always shut down every game. Tokarski wasn't exactly a brick wall either. And well like I said Hicketts played ALOT of minutes. Chabot was better, but Hicketts was pretty very poised, physical, really tenacious with stick on pucks and blocked alot of shots. Plus all tournament long the team and coaches preached what a good leader he was, which is something that goes unnoticed to people viewing the game. Im sure every analyst who covered the tournament would tell you he did a great job. I have no idea what anyone would complain about his performance.

Im sure everyone can agree we need to be better in general, regardless of who is loaned and who isn't... No reason we shouldn't be a top 4 lock every year.

 

[1Gold Standard]

That has nothing to do with what I said. I am well aware that Chychrun's only international option is Canada. I simply don't want Chychrun on team Canada, just like I said in that post.



We have very different perspectives. I wasn't particularly impressed with the defence in 2009, but I do like Boucher as a coach. I wanted Hockey Canada to use him at the World Championships in the past. Hicketts was just plain bad last year. I'm really surprised to see anyone say something positive about him. He was ripped by basically everyone last year, and rightfully so.

well, he was another healthy scratch last night, so the odds increase daily he'll be released for the tourney.

a more pressing concern is Strome. In the way he played in his 1st.game back in Erie, if that's the type of game he gives to us as 1st line center at the tourney, then we may as well kiss any medal aspirations good-bye. I'd bounce him down to 3rd line center or off the team if that's his level of compete. but Hockey Canada doesn't have the stones for that.