Speculation: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster building / proposal thread Part III

[AHB*]

Not so sure MSL wants top line minutes, he's almost 40. I think he'd prefer 3rd line duty, where he can also be a leader and mentor for the new guys. My top six...

Kreider - Stepan - Nash
Stempniak - Brassard - Zuccarello

I'm fairly certain the time will be distributed fairly even throughout the top 3 lines, with the 4th getting around 10 mins a night.

Line 1 (Steps) - 17-20 a night
Line 2 (Brass) - 15-17
Line 3 (Miller/MSL) - 15-17
Line 4 (Moore) - 10-12

To call any line 1-2-3 is really not appropriate with this squad.

 

[bernmeister]

Yea and not to mention that Kevin Klein isn't in the same stratosphere as Dan Girardi, never was, never will be, and would be a disaster playing his minutes against his competition.

The problem with this is it does not factor in what Girardi ultimately returns.
Immediately, something like Girardi + Kristo + Ranger 4th for Kadri + 2nd (or two 3rds) does not yield immediate D help.

But you are getting ample assets in return.
May have to add further and flip coupla times, but a significant enough RD add can eventually be had.

But Girardi by his lonesome will not return a better RD/better RD prospect, esp. with his NMC limiting options to Toronto. Grab while the grabbing is good.

 

[bernmeister]

Sometimes people disagree with you and it's not because they "don't see the big picture" or don't "speak the truth" or don't understand the basic concept of trades following trades.

I get all that. I just don't like that deal, and I think that D is a huge step down, a way larger step down than the boost the offense would get from Kadri.

They get Kadri, then what? Now they can trade a center. Miller is the most obvious choice since Kadri would likely take the spot he's going to try to earn. Miller for ____, a player who defrays/neutralizes/surpasses the weak D problem? That's a real long shot. The team can't afford to add more future assets IMO.

It's not like the names in question here are unknown. If Kadri comes, we know who's here now, we know who he'd likely make expendable. How do any of those guys turn into a D that knocks Boyle and/or Klein back to their rightful spots?

And I just disagree about how bad that D would be. Both Klein and Boyle are playing above their heads in that setup IMO, and very likely one of the rookies as well. We just saw what McD can do when he's got a partner that he's at the least comfortable with. Not sure I'd task him to babysit Klein or Boyle next year. I think Girardi is suffering from the HFNYR ethos where the last thing you did is the thing that defines your career until you do something else. Girardi wasn't good in the SCF, and now he's dead-weight to many posts. Not unlike Dubi after his bad playoffs. Not unlike Gaborik after his bad playoffs. Sometimes good players have bad stretches.

Thanks again for your indulgence on my not providing more timely reply, was swamped this wk.
Losing power. Get around to this this w/e.

 

[silverfish]

Alright, there's a lot here so be patient with me as I respond. Would like to say once again this is not necessarily a position I'm advocating, but just a thought I had. I'll defend it though as I see need be. It is August, after all...

Miller looked ten times better at center last year then when he was on the wing. He is much better suited to play there full time. It seems he is able to focus much more. Put defensively responsible wings with him, possibly MSL/Hags that can help him when he has his understandable errors.

Not saying this to be a dick, I just generally don't remember. I'd like to know how many games Miller played a full 60 at center last season. If you could remember, please point me in that direction. I will look at his stats and see if you are right. I find it hard to believe JT Miller, as braindead as he is in his own zone, played a better game at center last season than wing. He looks bad at wing because he's not really ready.

MSL with Miller is a waste, which brings me to your next point.

Also, trade Hagelin? Is that a joke? We have depth on one wing, not two. Our LW depth is **** without him. We cannot afford to trade him. That is probably our WEAKEST position on the team. I can't believe you're even of the idea that it's a strength.

Kreider
Stempniak
Glass??

Nash, MSL and Zucc are all much better on the RW and will likely play there.

I agree vehemently. Nash, MSL, and Zucc are all better at RW and should play there. Unfortunately, that puts one of these three players on the third line with JT Miller as their center. MSL should be recording 70 points for us in the regular season, not grinding a way trying to get a rookie center going. MSL won't come near 60 points with Hags and Miller as his linemates for a full season. He'd not to put up some supreme PP points for that to happen.

Now, that brings me to trading Hagelin because unfortunately I do believe one of those three will be playing on the LW this season. I think it will be Nash. If we can go ahead and get a guy like Eakin, Wingels, Berglund (not specifically these guys, but guys in this mold) it gives us a long term option for our top 3 guys down the middle in Stepan, Brassard, ______, until a prospect can come along and push one of them out.

Miller should get a chance at 3C this year. If he can't cut it, you maybe ship him out for someone. But this is his year. We need him to become a productive player.

Miller will certainly get his look this season. Again, this was just a thought I had in August, on a Saturday morning as I sat next to my computer with my cup of coffee. I don't think he'll cut it. But tell me, how much value will Miller have around the league if he can't cut it at 3C for the Rangers this coming season? Selling low is not necessarily the best idea.

Hagelin is criminally undervalued on this board.

I think Hagelin is pretty rated around here. He's a fantastic 3LW and he can even play over his head as a 2LW. His speed is second-to-none. His ability to get into a corner and terrorize the opposition D is a beauty to watch. He's like a Winetka brother from Mystery, Alaska.

That's why we can get a long-term center option for him. Because he has value, because he is good. His skillset is useful to NHL teams. Centers are more important than wings in today's game; and if the Rangers move Nash/Zucc/MSL to the left, we have some of the best wing depth in the league.

Hope that clears some things up.

 

[aufheben]

I'm fairly certain the time will be distributed fairly even throughout the top 3 lines, with the 4th getting around 10 mins a night.

Line 1 (Steps) - 17-20 a night
Line 2 (Brass) - 15-17
Line 3 (Miller/MSL) - 15-17
Line 4 (Moore) - 10-12

To call any line 1-2-3 is really not appropriate with this squad.

Yeah, but it's more important who the lines go up against. Maybe Miller's line only plays 1-2 minutes less than Stepan's a night, but get's the luxury of going up against 3rd defensive pairs, rather than 1st.

 

[Savant]

The problem with this is it does not factor in what Girardi ultimately returns.
Immediately, something like Girardi + Kristo + Ranger 4th for Kadri + 2nd (or two 3rds) does not yield immediate D help.

But you are getting ample assets in return.
May have to add further and flip coupla times, but a significant enough RD add can eventually be had.

But Girardi by his lonesome will not return a better RD/better RD prospect, esp. with his NMC limiting options to Toronto. Grab while the grabbing is good.

I think I do something along the lines of Staal for Kadri. Girardi not so much.

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

I'm fairly certain the time will be distributed fairly even throughout the top 3 lines, with the 4th getting around 10 mins a night.

Line 1 (Steps) - 17-20 a night
Line 2 (Brass) - 15-17
Line 3 (Miller/MSL) - 15-17
Line 4 (Moore) - 10-12

To call any line 1-2-3 is really not appropriate with this squad.

MSL is our best finisher.

He's not playing with Miller (at least certainly not to start the season)

He's not playing 3rd line minutes.

It wouldn't matter even if he preferred 3rd line minutes. It's AV's choice on what he feels is best for the team, and since MSL is still our best finisher and arguably our best overall offensive player, he's not going to be anywhere but in the top-6 with our other top offensive players.

This delusion that MSL is here to hold the hands of rookies is out of touch with reality. He doesn't need to play on the same line as a third-line rookie trying to discover how he fits in at the NHL level in order to be a mentor / lead by example.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Not so sure MSL wants top line minutes, he's almost 40. I think he'd prefer 3rd line duty, where he can also be a leader and mentor for the new guys. My top six...

Kreider - Stepan - Nash
Stempniak - Brassard - Zuccarello

MSL doesn't want top line minutes? MSL who is ultra competitive and has a chip on his shoulder the size of mount Kilimanjaro, doesn't want top line minutes?

Okay.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

MSL is our best finisher.

He's not playing with Miller (at least certainly not to start the season)

He's not playing 3rd line minutes.

It wouldn't matter even if he preferred 3rd line minutes. It's AV's choice on what he feels is best for the team, and since MSL is still our best finisher and arguably our best overall offensive player, he's not going to be anywhere but in the top-6 with our other top offensive players.

This delusion that MSL is here to hold the hands of rookies is out of touch with reality. He doesn't need to play on the same line as a third-line rookie trying to discover how he fits in at the NHL level in order to be a mentor / lead by example.

Having a mentor like MSL will help miller a lot. Just like jagr with dubi. He will be on that line with Miller and I'll bring this post back come puck drop to prove it right.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

Where is msl going to play? Kreider steps and nash have been together since all have been healthy.

Brass and zucc aren't going to be split up and we know what happens when MSL plays with zucc.

All you have to do is connect the dots and you'll see, it's very simple.

 

[kovazub94]

I think Nash is a MUCH better RW (mostly due to the ability to take the puck to the inside and create a strong shooting lane) which is why I take option 2.

In vacuum or as a RW with Stepan I'd agree. However, I'd take Nash on the line with Brassard and Zuke vs. JTM and Hagelin every time. You might be right though if the want to shelter ES minutes for MSL as well as competition exposure for Miller.

 

[Fitzy]

I don't think playing MSL with Miller and Hagelin is a good idea, and not just because it means he'd be on the third unit.

That's not a puck possession unit, and it doesn't pair MSL with either a playmaker who can put him in prime scoring positions or a pure finisher who can be counted on to capitalize on his passes.

I will go with the units I proposed in the earlier PP thread.

Kreider-Stepan-St. Louis
Nash-Brassard-Zuccarello
Hagelin-Miller-Stempniak
Lombardi-Moore-Glass

If it doesn't work you can shuffle things but Each of those lines has a combination of size, speed, and playmaking ability. The third unit is a bit of a work in progress, how it turns out depends a lot on JT Miller. If he fails, moving moore or Lombardi up isn't the end of the world.

 

[Zil]

Where is msl going to play? Kreider steps and nash have been together since all have been healthy.

Brass and zucc aren't going to be split up and we know what happens when MSL plays with zucc.

All you have to do is connect the dots and you'll see, it's very simple.

They're allowed to mix up the lines. Of all the top wings, Nash is the one that makes the most sense to pair with Miller. He doesn't depend on his center to create offense at all. St. Louis makes a lot more sense playing with Stepan and Kreider.

 

[Wolfy*]

MSL doesn't want top line minutes? MSL who is ultra competitive and has a chip on his shoulder the size of mount Kilimanjaro, doesn't want top line minutes?

Okay.

I'm pretty sure he wont play all season on the top line, considering his age. In fact it could hurt the team in the long run.

I remember how Marty had to catch his breath several times in the playoffs, had some very short shifts. When you're 20 you don't think about this..

It's not the minutes as they are the same in AV's system, but as others said, the pressure and workload of facing opponents top lines all the time.

It makes sense to have a rookie or two on MSL's line.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

They're allowed to mix up the lines. Of all the top wings, Nash is the one that makes the most sense to pair with Miller. He doesn't depend on his center to create offense at all. St. Louis makes a lot more sense playing with Stepan and Kreider.

But now you can also say why put a super star like nash with a rookie? Goes both ways. I just want a vet with Miller

 

[kovazub94]

Yeah, and I've yet to see a NYR season where the lines established even after 15-20 games stick 50-60 games.

I think Miller could be a good fit with Brass and Zucc and he will get the first shot. That's my bet at least. Then Lombs with Hags and MSL.

The problem is this. Kreider-Step-Nash played together a ton last year. From day 1 they did get dramatically better. I don't think many recognize this, because they look at output, but that line was not good at all 5 on 5 early on. Then they steadily progressed during the year, and easily played their best hockey in the POs. But, when they faced the same team day in and day out, and a team on top of that that was real good, they could win the momentum battle but not score. How much can the line of Kreider-Step-Nash keep on growing? You need them to be able to score too no doubt. How do you get Nash going? Because that line was not working well offensively at all, and it was not -- only -- Nash.

One option could be to move Zucc to the left and play Nash at RW on that line. Zucc plays kind of in a free role anyway, on the cirlce I don't think it would bother him at all to play LW. Nash would open up alot of ice for him. That could give us:

Kreider-Step-MSL
Zucc-Brass-Nash
Hags-Miller-Fast/Stemp
Glass-Moore-Lombardi/Fast/Stempniak

First where's Stepniak? I don't think he signs with the Rangers for such discount if he didn't get assurances that he'll get first chance to be a top nine forward and play with a talented scoring linemates.

Second, especially compared to Torts and probably many other coaches, AV is very stubborn in a sense that if he sees something and believes certain line combinations should work then he will stick with it even through a long drought of production or pretty long stretches of subpar performance. That's been a case last year with both Step / Nash and Brass / Zuke combos.

Edit dont bother with point below I misread your proposed line up. And I wouldn't mind if Zuke or Nash switches to LW.

Third, I wouldn't risk losing Brass / Zuke chemistry and synergy to fix what I think is not broken. Nash will com back this season if he has been completely free of concussion symptoms. If MSL can still handle first line minutes and duties then Nash should get a chance with Brass and Zuke to further improve this line compared to last season with Poo. If MSL should be sheltered then it's back to last year's first line, Stepniak, playing as LW with Brass and MSL and Hags centering Miller or Lombardi based on the current roster.

 

[Zil]

But now you can also say why put a super star like nash with a rookie? Goes both ways. I just want a vet with Miller

Who cares about labels? Nash doesn't use his teammates much, whereas St. Louis does. Vigneault likes to roll his lines and a top three of Kreider/Stepan/St. Louis, Zuccarello/Brassard/Stempniak, and Hagelin/Miller/Nash is the most balanced.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

Who cares about labels? Nash doesn't use his teammates much, whereas St. Louis does. Vigneault likes to roll his lines and a top three of Kreider/Stepan/St. Louis, Zuccarello/Brassard/Stempniak, and Hagelin/Miller/Nash is the most balanced.

Oh don't get me wrong I don't label the lines. But the fact that some people go bananas when people speculate a guy like MSL with Miller is messed up. (I actually don't care who's with Miller as long as it's a responsible finisher)

 

[eco's bones]

Pretty much the way I see it now is Stepan and Kreider on one line and Brassard and Zucc on another line and Moore will probably be the 4th line center and Glass will be one of his wings. After that it could be just about anything. Miller with Nash is probably worth a try. I could see St. Louis and Hagelin potentially with Miller as well.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Pretty much the way I see it now is Stepan and Kreider on one line and Brassard and Zucc on another line and Moore will probably be the 4th line center and Glass will be one of his wings. After that it could be just about anything. Miller with Nash is probably worth a try. I could see St. Louis and Hagelin potentially with Miller as well.

Kreider-Stepan-Nash/MSL
Hagelin-Miller-MSL/Nash
XX-Brassard-Zucc
Glass-Moore-XX

XX possibilities (choose two) - Stempniak, Lindberg, Lombardi, Mueller, *darkhorse* Duclair.

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

Where is msl going to play? Kreider steps and nash have been together since all have been healthy.

Brass and zucc aren't going to be split up and we know what happens when MSL plays with zucc.

All you have to do is connect the dots and you'll see, it's very simple.

Connecting dots that you've fabricated in an effort to paint a baseless claim into fact...

Kreider and Stepan had success with both Zuccarello and St. Louis as well as Nash.

Nash also happened to be with Kreider and Stepan during the career-worst slump/funk he was in for the last 2 months of the year (May and June). I find it interesting that you neglected to mention that part of it.

The bottom line is that Kreider&Stepan are a unit, Brassard&Zuccarello are a unit, and Hagelin&Stempniak have a good chance at flanking whomever wins the 3C spot, because of the remaining wingers, they are the two most ideal 3rd-liners, as they have proved that they are capable of smart two-way hockey while contributing scoring depth in that role, and with the minutes associated with it.

That leaves Nash and St. Louis as the remaining top-6 wingers to slot in. Since St. Louis and Zuccarello are both tiny (despite neither one playing a small game), the obvious move is to keep them on separate lines. Thus, we have:

Kreider Stepan St. Louis
Nash Brassard Zuccarello
Hagelin Miller Stempniak
and The Dominic Moore Show

Easing the transition even more is the fact that Nash is taking Pouliot's spot: Nash has the same body-type and somewhat similar skating stride while being a lot better at every offensive aspect of the game.

Fitzy helps further echo these sentiments as he eloquently articulates below:

I don't think playing MSL with Miller and Hagelin is a good idea, and not just because it means he'd be on the third unit.

That's not a puck possession unit, and it doesn't pair MSL with either a playmaker who can put him in prime scoring positions or a pure finisher who can be counted on to capitalize on his passes.

I will go with the units I proposed in the earlier PP thread.

Kreider-Stepan-St. Louis
Nash-Brassard-Zuccarello
Hagelin-Miller-Stempniak
Lombardi-Moore-Glass

If it doesn't work you can shuffle things but Each of those lines has a combination of size, speed, and playmaking ability. The third unit is a bit of a work in progress, how it turns out depends a lot on JT Miller. If he fails, moving moore or Lombardi up isn't the end of the world.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

Hagelin Miller Stempniak

Is a disaster waiting to happen. Thank goodness they won't be on a line together

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

Hagelin Miller Stempniak

Is a disaster waiting to happen. Thank goodness they won't be on a line together

Two smart and responsible defensive players who can skate and provide secondary scoring insulating a rookie with some swagger is a disaster waiting to happen?

Please elaborate.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

Kreider-Stepan-Nash/MSL
Hagelin-Miller-MSL/Nash
XX-Brassard-Zucc
Glass-Moore-XX

XX possibilities (choose two) - Stempniak, Lindberg, Lombardi, Mueller, *darkhorse* Duclair.

This all this. I'd guess stemp on the third and Lombardi on the fourth and that's our opening night lineup

 

[eco's bones]

Kreider-Stepan-Nash/MSL
Hagelin-Miller-MSL/Nash
XX-Brassard-Zucc
Glass-Moore-XX

XX possibilities (choose two) - Stempniak, Lindberg, Lombardi, Mueller, *darkhorse* Duclair.

If Nash wasn't so much a do it yourself guy it would be a lot better for Stepan and Kreider. Defenses are leery of Nash as it is--good speed, great puck skills and excellent one on one. Kreider on the other side just keeping defenses on their heels. Stepan a guy who can make plays. Both Kreider and Nash are very dangerous wingers--the problem is a lot of the time there's not enough chemistry between Nash and whoever he's playing with.

As for Duclair I think he has a shot at making the Rangers next year but he's a longshot.