Speculation: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster building / proposal thread Part III

[Tawnos]

Sorry but the reason Leetch flourished is he was one of the once in a life time talents. Moose said this himself while talking about Leetch. If you think it was because of Buek playing with him was the reason he flourished, then my friend, you never saw Leetch play. With your reasoning with Mac and Giraldi, that the reason where Mac is right now is because of Giraldi, that's like saying the reason Crosby is good is because of Duprius. The talented players ALWAYS make the less talented players better. The one thing Mac and Giraldi have is good chemistry but so did Staal and Giraldi

To use your own phrasing, if you don't think Leetch looked like a better player playing next to Beukeboom, then my friend, you never saw them play together.

Look, no one denies Leetch's talent as the primary reason why he became such a great player. No one is denying McDonagh's talent is the primary reason why he's becoming such a great player. There's a lot of room in there for acknowledgement of the players that helped them.. READ: helped them... become better.

 

[Ola]

Hated the signing initially, but I am waiting now before further judgement. He does kill penalties, he isn't a bad skater, blocks shots, and was a league leader in hits.

If he can fit that defensive role here and provide energy...

Yeah, I mean, who is our best fighter if Glass don't play? Eh, I like have to go through the roster. Nash? Klein? Lol we got nobody that can throw them.

Not to state that its formalized or even spoken about, but goons kind of hang together and they are not stupid. They create their own work. Ie, they notice if teams starts to play without goons because that threatens -- their -- job too, why should their team dress a goon if the other team don't? You know. So they try to do something about it, make the team without a goon pay.

Glass might not be a premium heavy weight without the gloves either, but he can fight.

Glass the player is worse than some goons in some areas, and better in others. His big upside is that he is smart and reliable and that he got a good stick and a good reach. His downside is that he is stationary and not a threat on the rush at all or really in any sense when it comes to driving the puck to the net, playing with the puck. But he is kind of like a Ruslan Fedetenko, as a coach you know what you get. And I don't at all think it has to be a bad idea to play Glass with Moore -- and -- a skilled winger. Moore is very skilled with the puck and smart for a 4th line center. Put a speedster like Lombardi or a Stempniak or a Fast on that line, and you have a lot of smart and speed hidden on a 4th line. To in the 3rd spot have a smart player with good reach who will focus 100% on the aspects of the game the coach tells him to focus on -- is not a bad idea at all.

From a coach point of view, you need to make a helluva good play to make up for one missed coverege that ends up costing you. Glass will assume the role as a roadblock on his line that focus 100% on making sure that his line don't make that misstake.

The big question from my point of view is Glass vs other goons and in particular Dorsett and Carcillo. Its easy to note that Dorsett is on the small side. He did not impress me, while he picked it up during the POs. Maybe its good since we are on the small side to give some in some areas to get size here, while giving up in terms of speed and ability. I thought Carcillo came a long fine. OTOH, AV and co got a good look at Carcillo. Maybe something rubbed them the wrong way you know.

Hockey is not an easy trade to learn. Maybe they think Glass can keep growing and become a precense in NY like Thornton was in Boston. Some continuity on the depth lines always helps too.

We will see.

 

[Ola]

To use your own phrasing, if you don't think Leetch looked like a better player playing next to Beukeboom, then my friend, you never saw them play together.

Look, no one denies Leetch's talent as the primary reason why he became such a great player. No one is denying McDonagh's talent is the primary reason why he's becoming such a great player. There's a lot of room in there for acknowledgement of the players that helped them.. READ: helped them... become better.

Leetch was amazing. Erik Karlsson isn't seen much due to playing for a so-so Ottawa team, maybe he could be a compareable if he played for a better team. But the offensive impact Leetch had on any game should be compared to like Kovalchuk's offensive game for NJ during that Cup run. A dominating game by game precense.

Next to Leetch you had Beuke who was a huge factor too. Beuke wasn't far from being a Chara without offense if people get what I mean. Lowe was extremely solid, think say Marc Staal, and Zubov like was on par with Erik Karlsson.

That blueline and top 4 was amazing, all 4 as individuals and the pairings as just that, units on the ice. How they fitted together.

If anything you can make an argument that our forwards was overrated. The top line was good but also helped a lot by playing infront of amazing Ds that really could open things up, and line 2-4 was not spectacular while of course being very solid.

 

[Vitto79]

Dz a flyer . Weird

 

[Fletch]

To use your own phrasing, if you don't think Leetch looked like a better player playing next to Beukeboom, then my friend, you never saw them play together.

Look, no one denies Leetch's talent as the primary reason why he became such a great player. No one is denying McDonagh's talent is the primary reason why he's becoming such a great player. There's a lot of room in there for acknowledgement of the players that helped them.. READ: helped them... become better.

Missing the Beuk/Leetch pairing. Buek stayed back, Leetch went up. It was simple. With Leetch, you didn't need another defenseman up there. You had four forwards on the ice, essentially, and he'd bring up the puck like nobody. Times were simpler then. You can have a Beuk take out guys, take down guys, clear the front of the net, etc., then have Leetch (or Lowe and Zubov). Ah, the good 'ol days.

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

Sorry but the reason Leetch flourished is he was one of the once in a life time talents. Moose said this himself while talking about Leetch. If you think it was because of Buek playing with him was the reason he flourished, then my friend, you never saw Leetch play. With your reasoning with Mac and Giraldi, that the reason where Mac is right now is because of Giraldi, that's like saying the reason Crosby is good is because of Duprius. The talented players ALWAYS make the less talented players better. The one thing Mac and Giraldi have is good chemistry but so did Staal and Giraldi

I never said McDonagh is what he is or where he is BECAUSE of Girardi. I clearly said that Girardi had a huge impact on McDonagh's development in the NHL over the last three seasons.

Speak with people who played, at any level, especially at high levels, and ask them if they got where they were or became the player they did all because of themselves. I bet you 100% of them will credit NOT ONLY their own hard work, but the hard work of everyone else that helped them along the way.

Leetch was a once in a lifetime talent...and Moose said so. Wow you went on a limb. Now go ahead and listen to what Leetch said about his career after Messier came to New York, and the impact and influance he had on Leetch as a professional athlete.

Every single person a player comes in contact with on and off the ice has an impact in how they develop. Especially young player breaking into the league. There is a reason coaches put young guys with veterans. Its not so the young guy who knows everything can help the old cripple cross the street. Its so that the older/more experienced player can guide the young player and help him develop his strengths and learn new things about the game.

A player needs to do things on their end in their control, but there are external factors that play into their development. Maybe a coach in a player's youth used him as a ringer offensively and this player didn't learn the defensive side of of the game before he reached Junior. Maybe now his Junior coach runs a defensive system and suddenly this player is being asked to do things he hasn't been asked to do, he gets frustrated. Perhaps one of the older players on the team takes him under his wing and helps him cope and learn, suddenly this player starts to become better. These things happen all the time. Maybe its not a player but a coach. Ryan Callahan never becomes the player he became at the NHL level if not for John Tortorella who fell in love with Callahan's work ethic and energy, and gave him more responsibility on the ice. Callahan was nothing more than a 3rd/4th line plug before Tortorella came along. But no, Callahan did it all himself. He wasn't drafted as a favor, that never happened, he was drafted because he was already a developed product...no, he was drafted as a favor.

A player has to be willing to learn, has to have the right mentality, work ethic, and talent, but they also need the right people around them to reach their potential. The right guidance. If a player is an offensive defenseman that thrives with the puck is put in a situation where he can't play to his strengths and/or is put with a partner he can't trust he won't be playing to his strengths. That effects his development.

Beukeboom didn't have huge effect on Leetch's development? Patrick? Lowe? Messier? Richter? Beezer?

They absolutely did.

The confidence in your goaltender allows you to come out of your shell more and take risks you may have not taken before. Same for a dependable defense partner. Messier comes to town and helps mould a young Leetch into a more refined and mature professional athlete.

McDonagh gets an opportunity and Girardi's rock solid play in his own end and Lundqvist allow McDonagh the confidence to make mistakes and take them in stride. Then under a new coaching staff with a different system from that of Tortorella and his staff, he is allowed to take more risks with the puck, as is everyone else around him.

You don't think McDonagh is going to learn something from Dan Boyle these next two seasons? About how to run a power play? About correct and incorrect scenarios to take risks offensively?

You don't think Eaves and the rest of the players are Wisonsin had an impact on McDonagh?

If you don't believe players learn and mature and grow from eachother, then this conversation isn't going anywhere.

 

[Fletch]

Reading comprehension. I never said McDonagh is what he is or where he is BECAUSE of Girardi. I clearly said, in text, there is no excuse for getting this wrong, it wasn't a passing moment of audio or sight, it is there in plain sight in text, that Girardi had a huge impact on McDonagh's development in the NHL over the last three seasons.

Speak with people who played, at any level, especially at high levels, and ask them if they got where they were or became the player they did all because of themselves. I bet you 100% of them will credit NOT ONLY their own hard work, but the hard work of everyone else that helped them along the way.

Leetch was a once in a lifetime talent...and Moose said so. Wow you went on a limb. Now go ahead and listen to what Leetch said about his career after Messier came to New York, and the impact and influance he had on Leetch as a professional athlete.

Every single person a player comes in contact with on and off the ice has an impact in how they develop. Especially young player breaking into the league. There is a reason coaches put young guys with veterans. Its not so the young guy who knows everything can help the old cripple cross the street. Its so that the older/more experienced player can guide the young player and help him develop his strengths and learn new things about the game.

This isn't a video game or fantasy land.

A player needs to do things on their end in their control, but there are external factors that play into their development. Maybe a coach in a player's youth used him as a ringer offensively and this player didn't learn the defensive side of of the game before he reached Junior. Maybe now his Junior coach runs a defensive system and suddenly this player is being asked to do things he hasn't been asked to do, he gets frustrated. Perhaps one of the older players on the team takes him under his wing and helps him cope and learn, suddenly this player starts to become better. These things happen all the time. Maybe its not a player but a coach. Ryan Callahan never becomes the player he became at the NHL level if not for John Tortorella who fell in love with Callahan's work ethic and energy, and gave him more responsibility on the ice. Callahan was nothing more than a 3rd/4th line plug before Tortorella came along. But no, Callahan did it all himself. He wasn't drafted as a favor, that never happened, he was drafted because he was already a developed product...no, he was drafted as a favor.

A player has to be willing to learn, has to have the right mentality, work ethic, and talent, but they also need the right people around them to reach their potential. The right guidance. If a player is an offensive defenseman that thrives with the puck is put in a situation where he can't play to his strengths and/or is put with a partner he can't trust he won't be playing to his strengths. That effects his development.

Beukeboom didn't have huge effect on Leetch's development? Patrick? Lowe? Messier? Richter? Beezer?

They absolutely did.

The confidence in your goaltender allows you to come out of your shell more and take risks you may have not taken before. Same for a dependable defense partner. Messier comes to town and helps mould a young Leetch into a more refined and mature professional athlete.

McDonagh gets an opportunity and Girardi's rock solid play in his own end and Lundqvist allow McDonagh the confidence to make mistakes and take them in stride. Then under a new coaching staff with a different system from that of Tortorella and his staff, he is allowed to take more risks with the puck, as is everyone else around him.

You don't think McDonagh is going to learn something from Dan Boyle these next two seasons? About how to run a power play? About correct and incorrect scenarios to take risks offensively?

You don't think Eaves and the rest of the players are Wisonsin had an impact on McDonagh?

If you don't believe players learn and mature and grow from eachother, then this conversation isn't going anywhere.

I think you said all that well. It comes down to if McDonagh is running around covering up for his partner's mistakes, we probably would miss how good McDonagh really is because he is constrained and the offense would be more limited. A weak link can bring down even the strongest pairing.

 

[RangerBoy]

Today is Rangers day at NHL.com

Gordie Clark discussed the prospects

Skjei is the first one being discussed

"He's a very dominant-plus player with natural size (6-foot-3, 200 pounds), and he's in the category of [Chris] Kreider and [Ryan] McDonagh when it comes to a physical specimen with mobility and skating," Clark said. "Kreider stayed for his junior season with Boston College [in 2011-12] and won a national championship and then joined the Rangers in the playoffs that same season and had five goals. Players know when they're ready."

"Everybody thought he was going to have a different year in his draft year but he didn't and that may have been the reason he slipped to us in the third round," Clark said. "But he did what we thought he would do last season in Quebec. He really bulked up and put on some muscle and he's an animal in the weight room. Quebec will host the Memorial Cup next year so whether they win or not, they're in it and we're looking at that run. We want Duclair to have a healthy year."

"McIlrath has played about 100 games in two years so it's about one season and a playoff and he has injuries. And even in those 100 games he didn't play much in some of them because he had to fight everyone in the AHL and he beat them all up and he really has less than a year of experience," Clark said. "Our division has more scraps than the other divisions, and until I see that stopping I just don't believe it will end. [McIlrath] can do that well. This will be a key year for him."

"He's a very highly skilled Russian forward who can play any three forward positions," Clark said. "He has skill, hands and good smarts. He's been working out in our summer camp [in North America] and made great strides from last summer. He's been one of our best forwards at training camp. He plays in a skilled league and will spend another season in the KHL before getting ready to go for a pro career."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=727801

Big year for Miller

"I think we made it pretty clear to him when he left where he stands and the opportunity in front of him. You only get so many chances," Rangers assistant general manager Jeff Gorton said of Miller. "I think J.T. is a pretty proud guy and a confident kid. I think he's encouraged there's a chance for him in the lineup. We're all looking forward to how he comes back, but it's all up to him."

"If you want any success in this League, you need young players to eventually push guys and take jobs. J.T. is in that position, it's a huge summer for him," Gorton said. "The thing about J.T. is he can play all three forward positions. He's a big body, he's a heady player. I think there's a great opportunity in front of him here. We'll see how he comes back in training camp. He certainly has the talent and the size and the ability to be an NHL player. We'll see what he does with it."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=727282

"Our success came from a four-line, six-D team that we rolled; we showed our depth. We're trying to stay with that plan," Gorton said. "With additions like Stempniak and Lombardi and Glass up front, I think it helps our depth. On the back end, we lost a pretty good player for us in Anton Stralman. We got a different kind of player and someone we think can help us in another way."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=727348&navid=nhl:topheads

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

Tanner Glass and depth should never be used in the same sentence

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Tanner Glass and depth should never be used in the same sentence

Perhaps he is a pleasant surprise.

Look on the bright side. 2 months till the season, i'll reserve judgement on him until it starts.

 

[Fletch]

Perhaps he is a pleasant surprise.

Look on the bright side. 2 months till the season, i'll reserve judgement on him until it starts.

At this point, that's all you can do and we need to hope he brings something; and if not, that whoever is in his place brings something. I don't really care who it is at the end of the day.

 

[RangerBoy]

The NHL minimum salary increases to $575,000 from $550,000 for 15-16 and 16-17. Add $375,000. $950,000. $1.45M cap hit. The Rangers take a $500,000 cap hit with Glass in the AHL in 15-16. The contract is front loaded. He has a $450,000 signing bonus for 15-16. If the Rangers trade Glass after July 1,2015,Glass would have $1M annually owed to him for 15-16 and 16-17. Usually those signing bonuses are paid on July 1. Glass will end up on waiver wire or he will be traded for another similar contract by 15-16 or just traded because he would not be owed that much money. The Rangers gave Rupp 3 years in 2011 and he was gone after the 3rd lockout ended.

 

[eco's bones]

The staal hate is just plain stupid I mean have you watched the guy? You know the 1st round draft pick that made the team at 18 and is a anchor on our D

What's called hate is some people trying to figure out who is going to be moved if we can't keep everyone under the cap ceiling. Staal IMO is a possibility to be moved. It's not necessarily that we want to see it happen. Zuccarello would be a possibility too and I find that not very palatable either. Stepan as our best center should not be a possibility. Center is IMO our weakest position--making it even weaker would be the dumbest thing we can do.

So we could dump St. Louis or expect him to re-sign really, really cheap. But something is going to have to give to make 15-16 work. Personally I'd consider moving Nash but I don't think that's going to happen.

But really the reason I responded to this was not only the 'hate' comment but the distortion of fact 'the 1st round draft pick that made the team at 18'--Staal almost made the team at 18 but was sent back to Sudbury at the end of training camp. Staal did not almost make the team at 19. He did not have a particularly good training camp. Again he went back to Sudbury--a year in which he was voted the OHL's best defenseman. Staal made the Rangers as a 20 year old.

 

[Jim Morrison]

So, when is it safe to say McIlrath is a bust? That quote from Gordie Clark... Just sounds like a bunch of excuses.

 

[Fletch]

So, when is it safe to say McIlrath is a bust? That quote from Gordie Clark... Just sounds like a bunch of excuses.

it really wasn't a glowing endorsement and I didn't even understand the entire quote, such as "until I see that stopping I just don't believe it will end". He was grasping for a thought there.

 

[Mac n Gs]

It sounds like he was pissed that McIlrath was fighting everyone. The five minutes less of ice time surely can't help a steady development.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

At this point, that's all you can do and we need to hope he brings something; and if not, that whoever is in his place brings something. I don't really care who it is at the end of the day.

He should be an absolute non-conversation starter.

He is making 1.45 mill for this club next year. That's 2% of the team cap. Nothing.

There always needs to be a negative narrative on this board.

Tanner glass is a 4th line player who will either pleasantly surprise us, or will find his way off the team. His contract allows him to be buried in the AHL w/o much consequence.

If he doesn't work out, a conditional 7th or 6th can always be shipped to get a guy with the same exact skill set who provides what we hope Glass can provide.

But since I haven't seen him play in a Rangers uniform yet... there is no reason for me to believe that he can't fill a need for us and play responsibly.

Dan Carcillo came into this system and flourished. The playoffs were the best that Dorsett has EVER looked.

AV is comfortable with Glass. They have a history. He trusted him in important penalty killing situations. I believe he averaged over a minute of PK time w/ the Canucks, during his time there.

Glass also provides more grit than anyone we had last year. So there's that, too.

 

[Fletch]

The staal hate is just plain stupid I mean have you watched the guy? You know the 1st round draft pick that made the team at 18 and is a anchor on our D

it's not "hate" and I don't think one fan who thinks Staal should not be here next season is making any unfair statements. There are health concerns. Perhaps they're overblown, but perhaps they also aren't. Who are we to tell either? The Rangers are in a known cap crisis, or what appears to be one. The notion that they may not be able to fit-in Staal given so many other needs is not a crazy notion. Some value offense more than defense, especially given the lack of offense and perhaps it doesn't matter who's in front of Hank, he will block 91.9% of the shots in any event. It's not hate. The arguments against are reasonable. Right now, I'm for keeping him if there is a way to fit him in. For me, I'd rather wait it out a bit though, which isn't the best strategy since the cost will go up, but we need to see how Miller goes, and other forwards, and perhaps get a further understanding of how the defense will play. I'm assuming Staal will be healthy and that concussions won't be an issue.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

So, when is it safe to say McIlrath is a bust? That quote from Gordie Clark... Just sounds like a bunch of excuses.

If you say so.

 

[Fletch]

He should be an absolute non-conversation starter.

He is making 1.45 mill for this club next year. That's 2% of the team cap. Nothing.

There always needs to be a negative narrative on this board.

Tanner glass is a 4th line player who will either pleasantly surprise us, or will find his way off the team. His contract allows him to be buried in the AHL w/o much consequence.

If he doesn't work out, a conditional 7th or 6th can always be shipped to get a guy with the same exact skill set who provides what we hope Glass can provide.

But since I haven't seen him play in a Rangers uniform yet... there is no reason for me to believe that he can't fill a need for us and play responsibly.

Dan Carcillo came into this system and flourished. The playoffs were the best that Dorsett has EVER looked.

AV is comfortable with Glass. They have a history. He trusted him in important penalty killing situations. I believe he averaged over a minute of PK time w/ the Canucks, during his time there.

Glass also provides more grit than anyone we had last year. So there's that, too.

The only negative is if he sucks, which is what 97% of the board expects, the Rangers, who are in a tight cap situation, wasted $1.45MM (or whatever it will be in dead cap space if they sent him to HFD; $500k?) and that's more than what needed to be wasted. Perhaps $900k-$1MM. Save the $400-500k for someone else. If the guy rides pine, or is sent down, there is valid reason to be upset.

 

[Fletch]

It sounds like he was pissed that McIlrath was fighting everyone. The five minutes less of ice time surely can't help a steady development.

sounded more like that's all he really does well and as long as there is fighting in the conference, he could have a chance.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

The only negative is if he sucks, which is what 97% of the board expects, the Rangers, who are in a tight cap situation, wasted $1.45MM (or whatever it will be in dead cap space if they sent him to HFD; $500k?) and that's more than what needed to be wasted. Perhaps $900k-$1MM. Save the $400-500k for someone else. If the guy rides pine, or is sent down, there is valid reason to be upset.

I doubt it would be hard to trade Glass's 1.45 mill.

Not a long term commitment. Not a high cap hit.

More teams were struggling to reach the cap floor this summer than in recent memory.

Teams could trade a conditional 7th for 2 years of 1.45 mill.

I don't think it was a bad deal.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

sounded more like that's all he really does well and as long as there is fighting in the conference, he could have a chance.

Sounds like:

- McIlrath's development was stinted. He has played a year of hockey in 2 seasons. His progression isn't as fast as it would have been if he did not get injured and wasn't relied on to fight everyone in the AHL.

- Justification on why he hasn't progressed as fast as other 1st round picks. Clark is saying, you can't judge who he will be when his development time has been essentially cut in have. That's why he keeps emphasizing the amount of games he has played.

- The fighting is a plus for him but more needs to be shown for him to come up than just fighting. Seems like a challenge to Dylan. "We know he's good at it, now show us more to get him up on the big club. We know his fighting will be useful particularly in our division, but he needs more time to develop in the other areas. The development time was slower due to the time he missed."

But i'm sure everyone will read it as:

- He's only good at fighting. That's all we think he's good for, since that's the only positive thing we can mention about his game in this brief 4 sentence prospect update. How soon can we label him a consensus bust?

 

[Fletch]

Sounds like:

- McIlrath's development was stinted. He has played a year of hockey in 2 seasons. His progression isn't as fast as it would have been if he did not get injured and wasn't relied on to fight everyone in the AHL.

- Justification on why he hasn't progressed as fast as other 1st round picks. Clark is saying, you can't judge who he will be when his development time has been essentially cut in have. That's why he keeps emphasizing the amount of games he has played.

- The fighting is a plus for him but more needs to be shown for him to come up than just fighting. Seems like a challenge to Dylan. "We know he's good at it, now show us more to get him up on the big club. We know his fighting will be useful particularly in our division, but he needs more time to develop in the other areas. The development time was slower due to the time he missed."

But i'm sure everyone will read it as:

- He's only good at fighting. That's all we think he's good for, since that's the only positive thing we can mention about his game in this brief 4 sentence prospect update. How soon can we label him a consensus bust?

I'm not labeling him a bust. He is the one prospect out of those mentioned who has played in the NHL and AHL, who does have over 100 pro games including some playoff games, and his comments are he hasn't really had much experience despite that and he's a good fighter and the conference still needs good fighters. Skjei is very dominant. He's like another prospect who's an NHLer now. he references joining the Rangers out of college during the playoffs and being successful. The other has great skills, smart, etc. The other is young and getting strong. Just saying, it wasn't glowing and this will be the year he's declared what he will be.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

I'm not labeling him a bust. He is the one prospect out of those mentioned who has played in the NHL and AHL, who does have over 100 pro games including some playoff games, and his comments are he hasn't really had much experience despite that and he's a good fighter and the conference still needs good fighters. Skjei is very dominant. He's like another prospect who's an NHLer now. he references joining the Rangers out of college during the playoffs and being successful. The other has great skills, smart, etc. The other is young and getting strong. Just saying, it wasn't glowing and this will be the year he's declared what he will be.

Clearly he felt it would be better to challenge two of his first round picks rather than praise them.

JT got the same treatment. "He knows the opportunity he has".

Dylan: "His development was stinted, so we won't give him the same ultimatum that we gave JT, but he needs to do more than just fighting, or that's all that he will be".