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Speculation: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster building / proposal thread Part III

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Fletch said:
they aren't, but on the defensive side of the equation, perhaps you give AV the benefit of the doubt last season since his defensively-oriented team did get to the Finals.
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Oh yeah I love AV. Even if Stralman would have formed a ridiculous pairing with McD like some say, AV was excellent in plenty of other areas, excellent enough to make him not trying McD-Stralman more often a relative afterthought. Besides, I'm not sure if Staal-Girardi would make a good pairing at this point. Would probably be an abortion of a pairing puck possession-wise, so I don't think keeping the pairs as they were was an error in judgment. Just saying that coaches making poor decisions is possible, and not exactly uncommon.
 
silverfish said:
Woah, easy killer.

People are entitled to their own opinions.

I think Staal is a stronger all-around defenseman than Girardi. You don't. That's okay.

This post is just the epitome of irony - it's really fantastic. So thank you for that, at the least.





In the same post! Classic HF. Love this place.

Opinions, baby. Opinions.
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, yes.

I supplied facts and numbers instead of hearsay. How is that ironic? Ignoring an entire post full of information to crop out the closing sentence because it makes it look like it suits some sort or agenda, thats ironic.

Like when people dilerberately fail to write down entire quotes from players to paint some controvercy that doesn't exist.

Supply some sort of tangible evidence that Staal is currently the superior player. All the evidence suggests otherwise.

We can even point to Girardi having more votes for the Norris in his career. But i'm sure that can be twisted in some way to make Norris voting insignificant.

Staal was on a path to be a great defenseman, he then spent the last three years dealing with head injuries and an eye injury. While that may not be his fault (chosing not to wear available protective equipment is 100% his fault) it still happened. He got surpassed by McDonagh in that time. Girardi was already a top pair defenseman before that, but he continued to improve and Staal continued to miss games.

Staal is not the same player he was. Can he get back there? Remains to be seen. In the meantime Girardi continues to log more minutes, continues to be among the league leaders in many important tangible categories, continues to hold more trust by his coaches. It doesn't matter that he is a right handed shot and Staal is a left handed shot. If Staal were so superior he would find a way to get more ice time and find a way to surpass Girardi in all the stats that Girardi continues to be well above Staal in.

To recap:
-Girardi beats Staal in ATOI
-Blocked shots
-Hits
-Less PIM
-More points
-More career Norris votes
-Only missed 5 career games (Staal well over 70 in the last 3 seasons alone)
-McDonagh grew into an elite player with Girardi as his partner
- +/-

But i guess none of that matters.
 
JeffMangum said:
Oh yeah I love AV. Even if Stralman would have formed a ridiculous pairing with McD like some say, AV was excellent in plenty of other areas, excellent enough to make him not trying McD-Stralman more often a relative afterthought. Besides, I'm not sure if Staal-Girardi would make a good pairing at this point. Would probably be an abortion of a pairing puck possession-wise, so I don't think keeping the pairs as they were was an error in judgment. Just saying that coaches making poor decisions is possible, and not exactly uncommon.
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and I agree with you. We criticize them in here all the time. Most of the time, they are smarter than us, even the worst coaches (easy to criticize what's wrong, and easy to say which pairings may work, but managing a bench is different and they all have a feel we can't ever possess). Sometimes I just have to err on what seemed to have worked. It's also subjective. We can argue forever. But I agree, they do not always get it correct.
 
silverfish said:
Woah, easy killer.

People are entitled to their own opinions.

I think Staal is a stronger all-around defenseman than Girardi. You don't. That's okay.

This post is just the epitome of irony - it's really fantastic. So thank you for that, at the least.





In the same post! Classic HF. Love this place.

Opinions, baby. Opinions.
Click to expand...

He didn't say anything inflammatory.
 
Trxjw said:
So two different coaches, with two different systems, both made the same error and were unable to see, or correct that error over the duration over dozens of regular and post season games?

Coaches aren't infallible, but that's certainly pushing the limits of reality. Not to mention that error in judgement -- by a coach who pays attention to the advanced stats, mind you -- got the team to it's first finals appearance in 20 years. Was Stralman an important piece? Absolutely. However, I don't for a second buy that he's a better player than Girardi.
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Or, and this can quite easily be implied from the way the pairings were set up, AV wanted to have one guy who could skate the puck out of the zone, McD, Stralsy, Moore and one guy who was more of a "defense first" guy on each pair to even them out. We saw what happened with the horrid confusion between MDZ and Moore to start the season (largely MDZ's fault) but the way the pairings evened out made it quite clear that there was a designated roll within each grouping.

Pairing McD and Stralman together, regardless of Girardi's and Staal's success (3-4 years ago) would not have made sense based on the way the lineup was constructed and especially with the offense that McD was contributing.
 
someone stole hank said:
McD growing has nothing to do with Girardi
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Yes it does.

Putting a young guy with a proven rock allows the young guy the confidence to make mistakes and bounce back from them.

You mean to tell me if McDonagh were paired with Stu Bickel his entire Rangers career he would have developed the same exact way?

It is a team sport, an interactions between other players on and off the ice and coaches and everyone and everything else has an impact on player development. Otherwise, everyone would reach their full potential and be Orr and Gretzky and Tretiak.

Next time someone posts something like "St. Louis helped young guys in Tampa develop" i think you need to remain consistent and tell them St. Louis had nothing to do with it...even though Stamkos himself says otherwise.

McDonagh has mentioned that because of Girardi he was able to develop into his role.

Coming from the player's mouth, that means nothing, but here is another case of "because i said so", so i guess none of that other stuff matters...


...unless you meant it literally, as in, his body growing...then yea, of course.
 
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Nyrvana said:
A 27 year old Staal or a 30 year old Girardi?

Who would you rather sign to a 6 year deal at similar prices?
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Girardi has missed 5 games total in his 7 year NHL career thus far.

Staal has missed over 70 games in the last 3 seasons alone, with head injuries and an eye injury.

Girardi, year after year, is among the league leaders in ATOI, hits, blocked shots.

If the only argument here is Staal is 3 years younger, then that isn't a very strong case.
 
Trxjw said:
Callahan never had a superior player playing behind him who, based on "the numbers", should have taken his minutes. Saying two different coaches both gave Girardi the benefit of the doubt for entire seasons of play is ridiculous.

So the coach deliberately made his top-pairing worse just so his 2nd pairing would be marginally better than what it otherwise might have been? That makes no sense at all.
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Nash gaborik and zuccarello? All RWers who had less ice time than Callahan despite being significantly better.

Coaches make errors in judgement as well.

As for your last point, it's not an shrewd concept to spread out the defense pairings for depth. Chara/Boychuk, Pronger/Timmonen, Fowler/beauchemin don't play on the same pairings, despite being the top two defenders on the team. It makes perfect sense to have two good pairings rather than one excellent and one bad one.
 
ElectrocutedCat said:
Girardi has missed 5 games total in his 7 year NHL career thus far.

Staal has missed over 70 games in the last 3 seasons alone, with head injuries and an eye injury.

Girardi, year after year, is among the league leaders in ATOI, hits, blocked shots.

If the only argument here is Staal is 3 years younger, then that isn't a very strong case.
Click to expand...

Staal and Girardi are similar players. ATOI is a coach's decision.

The hits and blocked shots would make me think Girardi's body will break down at some point.

I'd rather have Staal. Though I think they are both quality defenders.
 
Nyrvana said:
Staal and Girardi are similar players. ATOI is a coach's decision.

The hits and blocked shots would make me think Girardi's body will break down at some point.

I'd rather have Staal. Though I think they are both quality defenders.
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And two different head coaches and coaching staffs have been giving him that ice time...

Girardi's body MIGHT break down at some point...the guy has missed 5 games total in 7 seasons.

Staal has already had multiple head injuries and missed 70+ games in a 3 season span...

That's not really a solid argument there.
 
Glass is going to be ln the team, like it or not.

would love to see him get beat of a spot in camp, but he'll probably be gifted a spot to start.
 
Fletch said:
and I agree with you. We criticize them in here all the time. Most of the time, they are smarter than us, even the worst coaches (easy to criticize what's wrong, and easy to say which pairings may work, but managing a bench is different and they all have a feel we can't ever possess). Sometimes I just have to err on what seemed to have worked. It's also subjective. We can argue forever. But I agree, they do not always get it correct.
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I can think of one exception Fletch: a guy wrote an 80 page essay and got himself a coaching job with the NY Rangers. He deserved every single criticism he got.

And he's back in the NHL (as an assistant coach with Buffalo).
 
JeffMangum said:
Glass is going to be ln the team, like it or not.

would love to see him get beat of a spot in camp, but he'll probably be gifted a spot to start.
Click to expand...

I saw a rerun of a Pittsburgh game the other night. Don't listen to the Pittsburgh fans, they post so much crap its unbelieveable. Unbearable too.

Supposedly the worst player ever, played in all situations 5 on 5 and defensively for them. PK. Important shift defensively. Win momentum shifts. He did a fairly good job for a 4th lineer. He is a smart player for being a goon, dilligent defensively and loyal and smart to his line. Good reach and a good stick.

For a goon. But still. We are soo small and soo soft, I think Glass will and should play.
 
Brooklyn Ranger said:
I can think of one exception Fletch: a guy wrote an 80 page essay and got himself a coaching job with the NY Rangers. He deserved every single criticism he got.

And he's back in the NHL (as an assistant coach with Buffalo).
Click to expand...

Wasn't it handwritten too?
 
ElectrocutedCat said:
Yes it does.

Putting a young guy with a proven rock allows the young guy the confidence to make mistakes and bounce back from them.

You mean to tell me if McDonagh were paired with Stu Bickel his entire Rangers career he would have developed the same exact way?

It is a team sport, an interactions between other players on and off the ice and coaches and everyone and everything else has an impact on player development. Otherwise, everyone would reach their full potential and be Orr and Gretzky and Tretiak.

Next time someone posts something like "St. Louis helped young guys in Tampa develop" i think you need to remain consistent and tell them St. Louis had nothing to do with it...even though Stamkos himself says otherwise.

McDonagh has mentioned that because of Girardi he was able to develop into his role.

Coming from the player's mouth, that means nothing, but here is another case of "because i said so", so i guess none of that other stuff matters...


...unless you meant it literally, as in, his body growing...then yea, of course.
Click to expand...

Staal could of been paired with McD and he would of grown the same. Torts made McD the D man he is
 
Ola said:
I saw a rerun of a Pittsburgh game the other night. Don't listen to the Pittsburgh fans, they post so much crap its unbelieveable. Unbearable too.

Supposedly the worst player ever, played in all situations 5 on 5 and defensively for them. PK. Important shift defensively. Win momentum shifts. He did a fairly good job for a 4th lineer. He is a smart player for being a goon, dilligent defensively and loyal and smart to his line. Good reach and a good stick.

For a goon. But still. We are soo small and soo soft, I think Glass will and should play.
Click to expand...

Hated the signing initially, but I am waiting now before further judgement. He does kill penalties, he isn't a bad skater, blocks shots, and was a league leader in hits.

If he can fit that defensive role here and provide energy...
 
top pair RHD are harder to find than top pair (or in this case second pair) LHD...thats why Girardi got what he got.
 
someone stole hank said:
Staal could of been paired with McD and he would of grown the same. Torts made McD the D man he is
Click to expand...

Staal wouldn't have ever been with McDonagh on a consistent basis because neither play the opposite side.

Tortorella played a part, but he isn't on the ice. And Tortorella trusted Girardi on the top pair with McDonagh as does Vigneault.

Go on believing Girardi didn't have anything to do with McDonagh's development the last two years. But ask him, and he will tell you that you are wrong.
 
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