Speculation: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster building / proposal thread Part II

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Brad Richards was not a good defensive center though. He isn't going to replacing Stepan or Patrice Bergeron

If we start putting the bar at "can't be any worse than Richards" then we're in trouble. Not to mention Richards still played a big role on the power-play and chipped in over 50 points.

But again, the issue isn't him being a good defensive center. It's about him keeping his mistakes to a minimum and not botching his coverage in the defensive end. Derick Brassard isn't a defensive center, but at least he has some semblance of awareness in his own end. Miller has not shown that as a winger, let alone as a center.
 
Interestingly enough I'm tired of the comparisons between defensive responsibilities of centers, versus that of wingers. None of those players you listed play center. Not to mention that Zuccarello and Nash are actually quite responsible defensively and have spent time on the PK under AV.

He is a liability in his own end. Who is talking about people losing the puck at the blue line? I'm talking about him blowing coverage in his own zone, which he does often.

Also, I'll forgive his risk taking if he's a driving force offensively and pots better than .5PPG. Saying "MSL makes mistakes too" is absolutely ridiculous.

This is what I was going to say. If you're a defensive liability, then you better be putting up the offensive numbers. I remember when Marc Savard came up. Loved his hockey skills. He wasn't responsible in his own end, was small and cocky, but when he first came up he was rarely a minus in a game and reinvigorated a line with Maclean and Stevens, I believe, and was at about .5 PPG (think he scored 40 points, mostly assists, but am too lazy to look up). And being out there with a couple responsible vets on the wings obviously helps. If he's not productive and isn't helping out in his own end, he probably needs to be in HFD to learn how to play in his own end.
 
I have been trying to talk about him for months

I'm excited AF for him. Think he'll be a fan favorite. I monitored him when I'd go down to Hfd games.

Kristo was flashy but prone to many careless mistakes. McIlrath was constantly improving, but not quite there yet. But Lindberg was steady as they came. Not much flash but he damn well got the job done.

I think eventually, he will become our 4th line C and a 1st line Pker.
 
I thought it was a given that Miller couldn't possibly be as poor, defensively, as Brad Richards was for us for the final half of the season, and playoffs.

Additionally, Miller may very well be a winger. Just cause I think he'll center our "2nd line" doesn't mean that he will. Lombardi could be given that duty for all we know and Miller be the winger with Zucc and Brass... same position Poo was in.

AV certainly used him primarily as a winger this season.

"Hey, he can't be as bad as Richards!" isn't a valid reason to put him in the lineup. In fact, he very well could be as bad as Richards. He hasn't shown that he can be better.

I'm not talking about him as a winger.
 
If we start putting the bar at "can't be any worse than Richards" then we're in trouble. Not to mention Richards still played a big role on the power-play and chipped in over 50 points.

But again, the issue isn't him being a good defensive center. It's about him keeping his mistakes to a minimum and not botching his coverage in the defensive end. Derick Brassard isn't a defensive center, but at least he has some semblance of awareness in his own end. Miller has not shown that as a winger, let alone as a center.

He was showing it towards the end of the season. Around his 4th and 5th call ups and definitely in the playoffs.
 
This is what I was going to say. If you're a defensive liability, then you better be putting up the offensive numbers. I remember when Marc Savard came up. Loved his hockey skills. He wasn't responsible in his own end, was small and cocky, but when he first came up he was rarely a minus in a game and reinvigorated a line with Maclean and Stevens, I believe, and was at about .5 PPG (think he scored 40 points, mostly assists, but am too lazy to look up). And being out there with a couple responsible vets on the wings obviously helps. If he's not productive and isn't helping out in his own end, he probably needs to be in HFD to learn how to play in his own end.

Exactly. If you're doing something well, or exceedingly well, then your deficiencies in other areas are generally forgiven by the coaching staff. Until he shows he can do something well at the NHL level, then he's going to be scrutinized for doing things poorly, and rightfully so. Having potential and being over 6ft tall isn't the same thing as playing effectively.
 
"Hey, he can't be as bad as Richards!" isn't a valid reason to put him in the lineup. In fact, he very well could be as bad as Richards. He hasn't shown that he can be better.

I'm not talking about him as a winger.

I'm using Richards as a comparison because that's who's position he will be taking.

It's a direct comparison.

Richards set the bar damn low.
 
I'd expect to hear a deal done with Kreider today. I can't see it going to arbitration.
 
Exactly. If you're doing something well, or exceedingly well, then your deficiencies in other areas are generally forgiven by the coaching staff. Until he shows he can do something well at the NHL level, then he's going to be scrutinized for doing things poorly, and rightfully so. Having potential and being over 6ft tall isn't the same thing as playing effectively.

hence why he would spend more time getting "4th" line minutes and not more minutes. I think we won't know the answer to this until training camp, barring a trade. The one thing that does stick out (and I've seen it here, but can only assume it's true) is that AV was a bit negative. Would love to see the actual comments; tough love, or not his kind of guy?
 
I'm using Richards as a comparison because that's who's position he will be taking.

It's a direct comparison.

Richards set the bar damn low.

Richards was an overpaid shell of himself the last 2 years here. That said, he was still a savvy veteran who figured out how to put points on the board.

Declaring Richards garbage and making an assumption that Miller can do no worse is a huge leap.
 
Richards was an overpaid shell of himself the last 2 years here. That said, he was still a savvy veteran who figured out how to put points on the board.

Declaring Richards garbage and making an assumption that Miller can do no worse is a huge leap.

He put up 12 points in 3 months.

Average that out to 4 points a month.

The majority of his points were when this team was losing or mediocre.

Where was he when it mattered most? He was a damn embarrassment to this team in the final two series'.

It's not impossible that Miller can do no worse. But it'll be really hard. He'll have to try to do poorly for that to be the case.
 
To NYR: Byfuglien, Bjugstad

To FLA: Kane

To WPG: Campbell, Staal, Howden, Miller, Skjei

NYR trades Staal, J.T. Miller, Brady Skjei for Byfuglien and Bjugstad
FLA trades Bjugstad, Campbell, Howden for E. Kane
WPG trades Byfuglien and Kane for Campbell, Staal, Howden, Miller, Skjei

WPG then flips Staal to Carolina for Ryan Murphy


Kreider Stepan St. Louis
Nash Brassard Zuccarello
Hagelin Bjugstad Stempniak
Glass Moore Lindberg

McDonagh Girardi
Klein Boyle
Moore Byfuglien

Lundqvist
Talbot
 
He put up 12 points in 3 months.

Average that out to 4 points a month.

The majority of his points were when this team was losing or mediocre.

Where was he when it mattered most? He was a damn embarrassment to this team in the final two series'.

It's not impossible that Miller can do no worse. But it'll be really hard. He'll have to try to do poorly for that to be the case.

he scored 50+ points during an 82-game season, 20 of which were goals and he wasn't paired exactly with top wingers; although it is disappointing he and MSL didn't really mesh well together. He also played a key part on the PK on a team whose PK was pretty darn good. He was a leader on the team, and while many write-off such intangibles, I'm sure most in the locker room with him don't and that's where it counts. Finally, sure, he didn't show up until game 5 of the finals, but if it weren't for him, perhaps the team doesn't get through game 7 against PITT.This is not meant as a glowing endorsement for Richards; it's meant to say he wasn't just a throwaway and he's easily replaceable. It's not impossible for Miller to do no worse. Go out there, score 55 points, kill penalties, don't take stupid penalties, and help his team to the playoffs and he will actually do as well.
 
he scored 50+ points during an 82-game season, 20 of which were goals and he wasn't paired exactly with top wingers; although it is disappointing he and MSL didn't really mesh well together. He also played a key part on the PK on a team whose PK was pretty darn good. He was a leader on the team, and while many write-off such intangibles, I'm sure most in the locker room with him don't and that's where it counts. Finally, sure, he didn't show up until game 5 of the finals, but if it weren't for him, perhaps the team doesn't get through game 7 against PITT.This is not meant as a glowing endorsement for Richards; it's meant to say he wasn't just a throwaway and he's easily replaceable. It's not impossible for Miller to do no worse. Go out there, score 55 points, kill penalties, don't take stupid penalties, and help his team to the playoffs and he will actually do as well.

I REALLY do not recall Richards ever killing penalties, ever... He's too slow for that
 
He put up 12 points in 3 months.

Average that out to 4 points a month.

The majority of his points were when this team was losing or mediocre.

Where was he when it mattered most? He was a damn embarrassment to this team in the final two series'.

It's not impossible that Miller can do no worse. But it'll be really hard. He'll have to try to do poorly for that to be the case.

Hate on Richards all you want. Thats fine. Ill be right there with you.

But to say theres no way Miller can be worse next season is stupid.
 
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I'm using Richards as a comparison because that's who's position he will be taking.

It's a direct comparison.

Richards set the bar damn low.

So is he taking a center spot or is he taking Pouliot's? You're going back and forth.

Either way, I assure you that he could very well be worse than Richards. All while being highly unlikely to score 20 goals and 31 assists.
 
hence why he would spend more time getting "4th" line minutes and not more minutes. I think we won't know the answer to this until training camp, barring a trade. The one thing that does stick out (and I've seen it here, but can only assume it's true) is that AV was a bit negative. Would love to see the actual comments; tough love, or not his kind of guy?

I know that AV isn't much for guys who don't respond to his initial round of "tough love". That is, we saw Pouliot and Zuccarello both bounce back effectively after they were benched. He certainly had some issues with Kassian and Hodgson in Vancouver. Miller, to me, looked much the same each time he came up to play with the big club. It'll be interesting to see what happens if the Rangers have no other options but to force Miller into a spot. However, I don't think that'll be the case. If Miller can't earn AV's trust, we'll probably see Dom Moore or Lombardi centering that 3rd line.

Of course, there's also Lindberg as well, who I think is a dark horse to crack the lineup out of camp.
 
I have been trying to talk about him for months

As have I.

I've been saying that he's going to give Miller some real competition for the 3C spot.

I really like Lindberg's overall game. He's very calm and mature for his age/experience; he never panics. And I believe that with his skillset, there's some untapped offensive potential to be discovered as well.

I related him to Hagelin (totally different players) only in the sense that he may be one of those players who finds more offense at the NHL level than he did at previous, lower levels or whatever reason.

He's probably the prospect I'm most eager to watch in training camp, along with Ryan Haggerty (who likely will need/benefit from some time in the AHL.
 
I know that AV isn't much for guys who don't respond to his initial round of "tough love". That is, we saw Pouliot and Zuccarello both bounce back effectively after they were benched. He certainly had some issues with Kassian and Hodgson in Vancouver. Miller, to me, looked much the same each time he came up to play with the big club. It'll be interesting to see what happens if the Rangers have no other options but to force Miller into a spot. However, I don't think that'll be the case. If Miller can't earn AV's trust, we'll probably see Dom Moore or Lombardi centering that 3rd line.

Of course, there's also Lindberg as well, who I think is a dark horse to crack the lineup out of camp.

let's hope he responds well to the tough love. Seems so far away still...
 
Miller isn't a finished product. Kreider isn't a finished product. The Rangers learned to live with Kreider's mistakes. They need to live with Miller's mistakes. The veteran players make mistakes and their ice time isn't reduced. He is a center. He is cheap. Even if he has a good year, he will still be cheap in his next contract without arbitration rights. Look at the Rangers up for contracts next July. Staal will be the best group 3 D on the market. St. Louis. Stepan and Hagelin are arbitration eligible. Hagelin will be one year away from group 3. cap is going up but how much? More TV money. 4 fewer outdoor games. Canadian dollar.

Wisdom speaking^
 
Hate on Richards all you want. Thats fine. Ill be right there with you.

But to say theres no way Miller can be worse next season is stupid.

So is he taking a center spot or is he taking Pouliot's? You're going back and forth.

Either way, I assure you that he could very well be worse than Richards. All while being highly unlikely to score 20 goals and 31 assists.

BRB

Not saying there's no way. Saying he'll have to deliberately try to be worse for that to be the case.

Trxjw

Either way, he's no worse of a defensive liability than those two players. Why are both of those two players comparable with Miller, potentially? Because those are the exact two spots he's most in line to grab. Either the "2c", which was Richards' slot, or the 3 LW, which was Poo's.

I compared him to Poo, initially, and you told me it was moot because he's a C and for C's defensive responsibility is that much more important (a sentiment that I do not disagree with). Then I compared him to Richards and you're trying to back me into a corner. Doesn't matter. Those are the two slots he's most likely to fit into. And he'd be less of a defensive liability than either of the two players he'd be replacing.

Can he come in and get 51 points? I think that the probability is really low that he can do that in his first year. But my argument about this is that the team got better as Richards regressed. Meaning if JT can do other things while maintaining a similar offensive output to end the season, he'll be more of an asset to the team than Richards was for the final 5 months (3 regular season, 2 post season).

Can he come in and get 36 points, Poo's output? Sure. It's much more realistic. And while being more defensively responsible and take less penalties? Yes.

My argument would be that he would slot better into the 3 LW position than the 2c position, although, it then becomes even more of a "pick your poison" situation for that position. If it's not Miller, the you're stuck picking between Lombardi (a player who was bounced out of the NHL with severe injury concerns and hasn't played in the league in years), Lindberg (a rookie who has never played an NHL game), D. Moore (who was tested as a 2c when Richards was moved down and failed in that position), or Chris Mueller (who's not even on anyone's radar as a potential starter, let alone 2c).

We're looking at repeating our performance from last year, and JT should be compared to the two guys whose position he is most likely to take.

#1 comparison - Richards. As inexperienced and aggressive as JT is, my opinion is that it would be pretty hard to do worse defensively than Richards played last year. Offensively, by the time the team needed its most offense, Richards nearly sabotaged the entire 2nd line. He was slow to the play, terrible leading passes (for the most part), coughed the puck over like no other, didn't gel with Hagelin, Nash, MSL, or Kreider. So offensively, I'd even argue that he'd be a lateral move, if not an improvement with the faster and grittier Miller. Miller will go to the net, he'll open up space for MSL and Hagelin. Richards couldn't do that. Miller will push the pace up the ice more effectively. Richards couldn't do that. Miller projects to be better at face-offs than Richards. Richards was at 48% last year. Miller in his small sample size was at 52%. Miller will play better on the boards than Richards did. And whereas Richards is an established vet who is used to playing a certain style of hockey, Miller will be more adaptable to his linemates. A big problem with many of Richards' linemates is that they'd have to adjust their approach to how Richards played. Now, with Miller? He's going to have to learn how to play with his wingers, rather than a vice-versa situation.

#2 comparison - Poo. There's no explanation needed about defensive responsibility. Poo was arguably the most irresponsible and careless player on the team, even more so than Derek "the headless chicken" Dorsett. Offensively, in his first year, Miller could provide just what Poo did, if not improve that total.
 
I think the Miller vs Richards issue is being focused on way too much. It's too much NHL14 or EHM thinking. In reality, Miller is looking to replace Brassard, who is getting a promotion. Instead of one question, it's really two. Can Brassard up his production with more ice time and maybe a better LW? Can Miller provide 25 or so even strength points from the third line?

Those are the questions. Not whether or not Miller can make up for the loss of Richards.
 
I think the Miller vs Richards issue is being focused on way too much. It's too much NHL14 or EHM thinking. In reality, Miller is looking to replace Brassard, who is getting a promotion. Instead of one question, it's really two. Can Brassard up his production with more ice time and maybe a better LW? Can Miller provide 25 or so even strength points from the third line?

Those are the questions. Not whether or not Miller can make up for the loss of Richards.

EHM thinking would be trading our next 4 first rounders for Stamkos or someone because there wouldn't be any regens past the middle of the round ;).

I agree, though-- if Brass can come in and handle 2nd line competition then even if Miller is meh on the 3rd, it won't be crippling.
 
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