1995-96 Mario Lemieux vs 2022-23 Connor McDavid

[WalterLundy]

1996 Lemieux

1st in goals, T- 1st in assists, 1st in points
70 GP: 69 G, 92 A, 161 P, +10, (2.30 PPG)

Point margins over the top 10:
2nd: 12 P, 8%
(Closest non teammate) 3rd: 41 P, 34%
5th: 45 P, 39%
10th: 54 P, 50%

Notable support:

Jaromir Jagr:
82 GP: 62 G, 87 A, 149 P +31, (1.82 PPG)
2nd in G, A and P. First in even strength points and even strength ppg.

Ron Francis:
77 GP: 27 G, 92 A, 119 P, +25, (1.55 PPG)
T-1st in assists and 4th in points.

1996 Pittsburgh Penguins stats:
362 Total G (4.41 G/GP)
235 EVG
109 PPG, 420 PPO (.2595)
18 SHG, 467 PPOA (.0385)

1995-96 NHL league averages:
EVG: 2.10, PPG: 0.90, SHG: 0.14
PPO: 5.04

2023 McDavid

1st outright in goals, assists and points (first time since 1986-87 Gretzky)
82 GP: 64 G, 89 A, 153 P, +22, (1.87 PPG)
*72 GP: 60 G, 78, 138 P, +16 (1.92 PPG)

Point margins over the top 10:
2nd: 25 P, 20%
(Closest non teammate) 3rd: 40 P, 35%
5th: 42 P, 38%
10th: 51 P, 50%

Notable support:

Leon Draisaitl:
80 GP: 52 G, 76 A, 128 P +7, (1.60 PPG)
4th in G, 3rd in A, 2nd in P

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins:
82 GP: 37 G, 67 A, 104 P, +12, (1.27 PPG)
9th in assists and points

2023 Edmonton Oilers stats:
325 total G
218 EVG
89 PPG, 275 PPO, (.3236) best ever rate
18 SHG, 278 PPOA, (.0647)

2022-23 NHL league averages:
EVG: 2.39, PPG: 0.65, SHG: 0.10
PPO: 3.07


Adjustments

Method 1 (EVG/PPG/SHG)

23 McDavid in 96 level:
82 GP: 69 G, 105 A, 174 P (2.12)
72 GP: 65 G, 91 A, 156 P (2.17)

96 Lemieux in 23 level:
70 GP: 62 G, 84 A, 146 P (2.08)

Method 2 (EVG, team conversion rates and PPO)
Would be the 2023 Oilers in 1996 and the 1996 penguins in 2023 converting at their actual rates in either year.

96 Lemieux in 2023
70 GP: 58 G, 78 A, 136 P (1.94)
*23 McDavid: 70 GP: 58 G, 76 A, 134 P (1.91)

23 McDavid in 1996
82 GP: 75 G, 119 A, 194 P (2.37)

Personal verdict/context/question
Saw both seasons and I’d lean 2023 McDavid. Visually looked better and did so with less overall and especially offensive support. Dominance over peers for points is in favor of McDavid and adjusted stats are close either way depending on the method used. 89 and 93 Lemieux are the two years clearly better than 2023 McDavid but I personally believe that this year is better than 1996 Lemieux. Went to 11 games in 1996 and saw McDavid when he came to Pittsburgh in 2023 (2 G, 2 A, 4 PTS in that game). Wanted to go in depth and provide everything I could. If you saw both seasons let me know if you did. Done at the request of @Nathaniel Skywalker and a few others.

Click to read more...

 

[jigglysquishy]

I think it's close but I do lean Lemieux. A big part of it for me is that he did it in less games.

I'd rank them all as

Lemieux 89
Lemieux 93
McDavid 21

Lemieux 96
McDavid 23

Then a decent gap to other seasons. But I think those are the 5 clear cut best seasons between the two players.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

McDavid didnt miss an entire season due to numerous recurring back injuries, a career threatening staph infection that almost took his abilty to walk away and a battle with f***ing cancer, Mario AINEC, even when his body was held together with a couple broken sticks, some mud, duct tape and super glue, Mario was still better then 98% of the league.

 

[WalterLundy]

I think it's close but I do lean Lemieux. A big part of it for me is that he did it in less games.

I'd rank them all as

Lemieux 89
Lemieux 93
McDavid 21

Lemieux 96
McDavid 23

Then a decent gap to other seasons. But I think those are the 5 clear cut best seasons between the two players.

I was considering adding 2021 as an option as well. Pretty sure we both think the same on that particular season. Considering 2023 was the season that won the Hart trophy tournament recently and that I was personally requested to use 23 McDavid I went with that as the option.

 

[EpochLink]

Have to go with Mario on this one

 

[tabness]

Lemieux ainec

like super mario vs mckoopa

 

[WalterLundy]

Lemieux ainec

like super mario vs mckoopa

View attachment 889493

Probably should have put this near the top of the post but did you see both seasons? Not that you can’t vote if you didn’t see both but if any voters/posters did let me know.

 

[Lou Sassole]

People really need to stop comparing anyone with Lemieux. He was a totally different thing than anyone I've ever watched, and as a Caps fan, it pains me to say that, but it's just the truth.

 

[tabness]

Probably should have put this near the top of the post but did you see both seasons? Not that you can’t vote if you didn’t see both but if any voters/posters did let me know.

Yes there are also games from Mario's 1995-1996 season on YouTube as well that you can check out. He's not the same player as earlier Mario of course, a powerplay merchant, but you just imagine him playing today with the rules today and his size and reach and skills.

 

[TheGuiminator]

Lemieux's season was slightly better: more goals, more assists, more points, and a better points-per-game average in a slightly lower-scoring environment. All this while he was 30 years old and broken down.

1996 was probably Lemieux's 4th best season, as he already put up multiple 160 points seasons prior to this one. So, it was just 'another year' for him, which is why it may not have been as jaw-dropping as McDavid's 2023 season, who was the first player in 27 years to score 150 points.

However, when looking at the overall picture, Lemieux's season was superior in every aspect.

It could be argued that McDavid in 2023 was a better player than Lemieux in 1996, but that's another debate.

For this poll, Lemieux is my pick

 

[Foppberg]

Lemieux. Not even in the same league.

 

[bobholly39]

Lemieux's season is better. It's also better than McDavid 2021

But I will say - I think it's a worthwhile comparison. Not something I would have ever expected, so good on McDavid

 

[Leafidelity]

Lemieux by a whole lot

 

[Three On Zero]

This is Lemieux and it’s not close.

 

[BraveCanadian]

It’s a tough call because I think they are close even though Lemieux’s numbers look netter at first glance.

It’s important to keep in mind that 95-96 was a crackdown year by the NHL which caused a big upswing in power plays which is right in Mario’s wheelhouse. The other thing to keep in mind is that Lemieux was resting in back to backs so that likely helps him.. not to mention a Jagr hitting his real prime.

 

[JackSlater]

I'd say that McDavid's season was better. Lemieux missing games is a negative in terms of which season was better, prime Jagr (on the power play with Lemieux) is better than Draisaitl, probably a bit easier to score in 1996 even with similar goals per game given the power play as mentioned before, and while neither did much defensively McDavid was at least extremely valuable for transition.

Lemieux's season is more impressive since he did it with those games missed and that he was clearly past his best physically with compromised mobility due to his back. Just goes to show how great Lemieux was that on a game to game basis he was better than peak McDavid even when he was clearly not at his best.

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Lemieux came back after whining to the league and being guaranteed that they wouldn't be allowing physical play against him. Zero respect for him despite how many points he floated to.

 

[tabness]

Lemieux came back after whining to the league and being guaranteed that they wouldn't be allowing physical play against him. Zero respect for him despite how many points he floated to.

Lemieux's crying about the "garage league" is why players like McDavid get to play in the softest era ever and don't have to whine so much. Lemieux was a trailblazer for new NHL hockey... ugh

 

[bambamcam4ever]

To the OP, if you are looking to make an honest poll (which you aren't, given your pretending to be a Penguins fan), you don't put your conclusion in the original post to bias voters.

 

[Regal]

To the OP, if you are looking to make an honest poll (which you aren't, given your pretending to be a Penguins fan), you don't put your conclusion in the original post to bias voters.

I don’t think I agree. OP is stating a case and seeing if people agree with it

 

[WalterLundy]

I don’t think I agree. OP is stating a case and seeing if people agree with it

It’s okay he just doesn’t like me. Every encounter I’ve had with him has been unpleasant at best with wild accusations hurled at me despite being apart of the same fanbase. The worst encounters I have on here are from fellow pens fans because I say what they can’t and hit too close to home. It’s all good. Thanks for your accurate observation.

 

[WalterLundy]

It’s a tough call because I think they are close even though Lemieux’s numbers look netter at first glance.

It’s important to keep in mind that 95-96 was a crackdown year by the NHL which caused a big upswing in power plays which is right in Mario’s wheelhouse. The other thing to keep in mind is that Lemieux was resting in back to backs so that likely helps him.. not to mention a Jagr hitting his real prime.

That’s right. Which is why I gave a great deal of data that should show that this is closer than suggested. As someone who was there for double digit home games that year and followed incredibly closely there was no better environment for Lemieux to rack up points in than the first 50 or so team games of this 95-96 season.

There was a league average of 5.04 powerplay opportunities per game and 0.90 powerplay goals per game in 1996. Lemieux had 79 of his 161 on the man advantage that year. I’m not saying that people are wrong for putting 96 Lemieux as the winner here but there is a lot to consider.

McDavid had 134 points in his first 70 games in 2023. That year there was an average of 3.07 powerplay opportunities per game and 0.65 powerplay goals. He did this with Draisaitl and Nuge. Jaromir Jagr and Ron Francis are both significantly better than those two respectively. Do people really think it’s a stretch that Lemieux scores 20-30 less points with Drai and Nuge with 40% less PPO? Or is it not plausible that McDavid doesn’t score an extra 20-30 through his 70 game sample playing on a powerplay with Jagr, Francis and Zubov? Especially considering he was the driving force for the greatest powerplay converting unit in the history of the sport as is. Nobody is saying 89 or 93 are in danger but 96 is clearly below peak Lemieux. Point being that when you really look at a lot of factors it becomes very close and to me either answer is fine although I’ve been accused as a fake penguins fan trying to influence people to pick against Lemieux.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I don’t think I agree. OP is stating a case and seeing if people agree with it

I personally don't think I've ever put my opinion in the OP of a post I've created, since the point should be to find what people think, not guide them to an answer. Putting additional info is fine, summarizing it with your opinion somewhat invalidates the poll result.

 

[WalterLundy]

I personally don't think I've ever put my opinion in the OP of a post I've created, since the point should be to find what people think, not guide them to an answer. Putting additional info is fine, summarizing it with your opinion somewhat invalidates the poll result.

I wasn’t guiding people to an answer I can assure you. If that was my goal I would have failed miserably given the current results so no need to worry about the poll results being invalid. I literally care zero about the poll result and expected this type of dominance. People will vote for who they want no matter what. What I say has no bearing on that whatsoever. This poll actually wasn’t my idea. It was in response to posts in another thread pertaining to this 96 Lemieux season being the best ever. To that I said it’s not and that 82-87 Gretzky along with 89 and 93 Lemieux all would beat this particular 96 season in their own polls. I was then met with a response to make a peak McDavid vs 96 Lemieux poll.

I’d be shocked if half actually read my post. I’d also be shocked if 60-70% of voters saw both seasons. Not losing sleep over either as all I was doing in my summary was giving my thoughts as a viewer that did see both and in person while also knowing all of the context to go with it.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

It’s okay he just doesn’t like me. Every encounter I’ve had with him has been unpleasant at best with wild accusations hurled at me despite being apart of the same fanbase. The worst encounters I have on here are from fellow pens fans because I say what they can’t and hit to close to home. It’s all good. Thanks for your accurate observation.

I don't think I've had that many encounters with you, maybe you're thinking of your non-alt account? And looking through your post history, the number of times that you mention "as a Penguins fan" or "have met Mario" gives off a very "thou dost protest too much" vibe.

It just seems odd that someone who is a Penguins fan would spend the vast majority of their time on this site 1) praising McDavid 2) Praising Gretzky 3) Downplaying Lemieiux 4) Downplaying Crosby. Like one or two of the four would be understandable, but all 4 together becomes highly suspicious.