1958 Sport Magazine All-Time AST

[Canadiens1958]

1958 Sport Magazine All-Time All Star Team critiqued by Milt Dunnell in his Toronto Star Column , January 24, 1958.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar...b=Toronto+Daily+Star+(1900-1971)&desc=Page+18

All-Time AST

Bill Durnan goalie.
Eddie Shore and Doug Harvey on defense.
Maurice Richard, Howie Morenz and Gordie Howe as the forward line. Note the distinction between RW and LW was done away with.

T.P. Gorman favoured Frank Nighbor at center for his overall skills. Not stated if the criteria was limited to the NHL or if the various western or pre NHL players received consideration.

Click to read more...

 

[Killion]

Good old Milt Dunnell & his big horned rimmed glasses. Looked like an elementary or high school Principal. Most of his columns riddled with horse racing references. In addition to the disagreement at Center with Mr. TP (Tay Pay) Gorman... they go with Sprague Cleghorn on Defence had Harvey not emerged. This is circa 58 of course, interesting he didnt go with Red Kelly rather than Shore. More contemporary pick. That pairing of Shore & Cleghorn, thats some serious truculence right there. A window into the past for those who might be unaware that toughness, being obstreperous, standing up for yourself in addition to wreaking havoc, dropping the gloves without hesitation a quality in players that was mandatory in every single one of them.

 

[Doctor No]

Thanks for sharing - very interesting.

Not too surprised at Durnan being selected as the goaltender - he was always well regarded at the time, even over his contemporary, Broda (who I would probably pick over Durnan today).

Somewhat surprised that one of the early-era luminaries (Vezina, Brimsek, Gardiner, Benedict, or even Hainsworth wasn't picked - for the latter in particular, people valued shutouts more then than they do today.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Pre 1929-30 Goalies

Thanks for sharing - very interesting.

Not too surprised at Durnan being selected as the goaltender - he was always well regarded at the time, even over his contemporary, Broda (who I would probably pick over Durnan today).

Somewhat surprised that one of the early-era luminaries (Vezina, Brimsek, Gardiner, Benedict, or even Hainsworth wasn't picked - for the latter in particular, people valued shutouts more then than they do today.

Part of the issue seems to be the impact of the forward pass and other rule changes on goaltending starting with the 1929-30 season.

Also the O6 era as it was in 1958, featured longer schedules and larger rosters.

All of the above impacted on the perception and evaluation of goaltenders.

 

[Killion]

Not too surprised at Durnan being selected as the goaltender - he was always well regarded at the time, even over his contemporary, Broda (who I would probably pick over Durnan today).

Ya, the Legend of Bill Durnan still overshadowing the more recently retired and active like Terry Sawchuk for example. Though perhaps understandable they didnt pick Sawchuk as this was 1958, Terry coming off a couple of lousy years in Boston from 55/57.... Ken Dryden always reminded me a bit of Durnan as well in terms of his career arc, duration. Not long but pretty gaudy, spectacular, then gone. Looking back over the last 40yrs as Dunnell & Gorman were doing late 50's I wonder how many today would pick Dryden as #1 over the past 40yrs let alone pick a contemporary player be it 1958 or 2015 when putting together an All Time AST..... tough call. One really needs to consider the entire career, body of work post retirement.... or do they?

 

[Doctor No]

Also of note is that this was close enough to the era that the impact of the World War II roster depletion wasn't perhaps considered as much as (I think) it should have been.

 

[Killion]

Also of note is that this was close enough to the era that the impact of the World War II roster depletion wasn't perhaps considered as much as (I think) it should have been.

Yes I agree. Not enough distance in time to be truly objective.
Though that being said, Durnan quite the unorthodox phenom.

Hasek's Great Gandaddy mebbe.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Ya, the Legend of Bill Durnan still overshadowing the more recently retired and active like Terry Sawchuk for example. Though perhaps understandable they didnt pick Sawchuk as this was 1958, Terry coming off a couple of lousy years in Boston from 55/57.... Ken Dryden always reminded me a bit of Durnan as well in terms of his career arc, duration. Not long but pretty gaudy, spectacular, then gone. Looking back over the last 40yrs as Dunnell & Gorman were doing late 50's I wonder how many today would pick Dryden as #1 over the past 40yrs let alone pick a contemporary player be it 1958 or 2015 when putting together an All Time AST..... tough call. One really needs to consider the entire career, body of work post retirement.... or do they?

Maybe not.

Back in 1958, wasn't winning the regular season considered as important as winning the Cup? Perhaps that was a major factor in Durnan's ranking, as others like Broda were better in the playoffs.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Winning

Maybe not.

Back in 1958, wasn't winning the regular season considered as important as winning the Cup? Perhaps that was a major factor in Durnan's ranking, as others like Broda were better in the playoffs.

Winning was the only consideration regular season and playoffs.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm assuming that these links will no longer be valid for people without a subscription when the Toronto Star archives are no longer free.

A couple of points from the article:

The writers (voters) "sidestepped the only issue that might have wrecked the poll" by deciding that "they wouldn't insist on designation of right and left wing. This bypassed the traffic jam on the right rail, where Rocket Richard and Gordie Howe tower over their rivals of any age."

Many voters "anticipated the approval of the publishers by writing in the Rocket at left wing. That's his natural position anyway."

The article says that any criticism would have to come from "devotees of the good ole days."

"Few moderns would question the status of the Rocket, Harvey, and Howe. And Bill Durnan hasn't been gone from the pits long enough for folks to forget he won the Vezina vase half a dozen times." Likewise, nobody young or old would criticize the inclusion of Shore.

The paper interviewed Tommy Gorman, who said the only change he would make would be to have Nighbor over Morenz, because Nighbor was a better two-way player and because he played the full 60 minutes. Gorman also said would have picked Sprague Cleghorn along with Shore if Harvey hadn't come around, but that he couldn't put him over Harvey.

 

[tony d]

Good stuff, very interesting read, thanks for sharing.

 

[Canadiens1958]

World War Impact

Also of note is that this was close enough to the era that the impact of the World War II roster depletion wasn't perhaps considered as much as (I think) it should have been.

Actually it was considered - in 1958 there were journalists, players, management who had seen hockey during WWI and WWII. Elmer Ferguson, T.P Gorman and many others plus a host of HHOF players.

If you consider WWII depletion then you have to consider WWI depletion since it impacted the formative years of the NHL.

1917-18 NHL TG/G 9.50. 1918-19 NHL TG/G 8.26. 1919-20 NHL TG/G 9.58.

1943-44 NHL TG/G 8.17. 1944-45 NHL TG/G 7.35. 1945-46 NHL TG/G 6.69.

PCHA not considered since the forward pass was allowed.

NHL
Goaltenders were especially favoured by the pre 1929-30 rules. Rosters were small so basically the goaltender played the whole game as did most of the starting skaters. Starting with the 1929-30 season the goaltender had to play the whole game but the skaters were rotated and fresher.

Pre forward pass the goaltenders faced the shooters unimpeded. Offensive players could not screen the goalies or create obstacles and offensive deflections were not allowed since they would be considered offside - forward pass. By the WWII era and immediately after offensive deflections were allowed and although not as liberal as today, screening and certain goalie obstructions were tolerated.

The parties studying the 1958 All Time AST issue were aware of these differences and they made excellent choices.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I really wish there was a better explanation given in the article for the choice of Durnan other than "he won half a dozen Vezinas," considering that the Vezina just went to the GAA leader like the modern Jennings, and Durnan's first 3 were won basically by default due to the war.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Other Possible Choices

I really wish there was a better explanation given in the article for the choice of Durnan other than "he won half a dozen Vezinas," considering that the Vezina just went to the GAA leader like the modern Jennings, and Durnan's first 3 were won basically by default due to the war.

Without getting into the WWII debate - Durnan's global GAA was marginally better in his last three Vezinas than his first three even though the team was weaker.

Three viable contenders for Durnan's spot. Tiny Thompson with four Vezinas but never consecutive playing in an era when rules were favourable to goalies, no screening, obstruction plus icing was not called.

Hainsworth won three consecutive under pre forward pass rules, this would also be used in 1957 by the voters against Vezina and Benedict.

Sawchuk thru 1957 had won three Vezinas but was viewed as in the mix with Plante and Lumley, coming back after a brief retirement, considered as a five year flash.

Beyond the above suggest alternatives and run the same measures.

 

[Sanf]

I really wish there was a better explanation given in the article for the choice of Durnan other than "he won half a dozen Vezinas," considering that the Vezina just went to the GAA leader like the modern Jennings, and Durnan's first 3 were won basically by default due to the war.

It´s a shame that most of the articles that compare goalies doesn´t go deeper than tha GAA races.

It would seem that Brimsek couldn´t challenge Durnan after he came back from war service. Hap Day commented in one article that he "never was the same after". One interisting thing I have noticed is that Andy Lytle who was sportwriter for Toronto Star had very low opinion about Turk Broda. edit. Ofcourse Broda got most of his team success in late 1940´s.
.
May 2, 1947 Toronto Star

Brimsek made the second team in goal which isn´t surprising if that is you take the long look back, for Brimsek, until Durnan over-shadowed him, was long the topside boy in the NHL nets while Broda wasn´t. ever.

Toronto Star Mar 9,1949

As for little man between the pipes, Roy Worters was the best I have seen, and Aldege Bastien*, a better goalie than Broda all the time they fought it out before Conn Smythe for the job with Leafs, the quickest in movements.

*Baz Bastien was for some years in Maple Leafs depth chart

As for the Vezina race it really did seem to be big thing on preasure side of goalies. Fans and media managed to get under goalies skin. Plus after 1947 there was money prize. Technically it is the same trophy that Jennings is today, but the time was different.

Bill Durnan talks about the effect of the Vezina race to goalies. He talks about 1944 playoffs.

Mar 27,1954 Toronto Star

Warning to his subject Prof. Durnan related how the germ gets the victim in its grip: "one of those shots took a bad hop" he said "I should have had it anyway, but it landed in the net. Then I started figuring every shot would take a bad hop. When Hamilton fired again I just knew it would do a crazy jig. So I played it that way. It went straight into the net."

The next morning. Montreal players who had seen little ? in the first game were scheduled for a practice. Coach Dick Irvin probably doesn´t know yet why Durnan turned up and begged for a chance to put on his gear.

"I just wanted to satisfy myself what had happened the night before was a bad game," Durnan explained. "I had to know because I was starting to think maybe my eyesight had gone; maybe my reflexes had frozen; maybe my timing was off. When it happened again the next year. I began to understand. There´s let-down after you win the trophy- especially after they added that G-note. It´s quite an effort to get yourself fired up over the next job-the playoffs. As I grew older, I found myself worrying about my Vezina rating in the first week of the season. Then I knew it was time to quit."

~Ten years after that Glenn Hall talks about Vezina preasures.

Feb 22, 1965 Toronto Star

"It´s nice to win the money," Hall was saying Saturday shortly before he buckled on the armor for a joust with the Leafs, "However, it puts tremendous preasure on the goalies. The goaltenders, themselves, don´t regard it as so all-important as the fans do. They practically demand that you win it."

 

[Sanf]

It would seem that Brimsek couldn´t challenge Durnan after he came back from war service. Hap Day commented in one article that he "never was the same after".

This is loosely related to this so I put it in here. In January of 1952 some players and coaches were asked who was the toughest goalie they have faced on their career. Of course this time period heavily favours Durnan. It´s not the full article cause I can´t manage to open notepad on same screen with my PDF reader.

Discussion started when Frank Boucher commented that Terry Sawchuk is the greatest of all-time.

Toronto Star January 30. 1952
Ted Kennedy said Bill Durnan is the best goalie he had faced.

"However in money series I´d sooner have Turk Broda on my side if both were in their prime" he ?. But for league game games it has to be Durnan.

Max Bentley: "Durnan is the best I faced as Leaf, but when I was in Chicago it was toss-up between Durnan and Broda..."

Fernie Flaman: "That Bill Durnan drove me crazy when he was in league."

Harry Watson: "As a Leaf Bill Durnan was the toughest one to fool. When I was with Detroit and Americans Turk Broda was my pet hate."

Cal Gardner: "Turk Broda was the best for my money. Now it´s Harry Lumley.

Howie Meeker: "Bill Durnan was the best I ever played against and Harry Lumley´s the best in league right now."

Gus Mortson and Bill Juzda chorused "Bill Durnan"

Danny Lewicki: "I never had to face that Durnan fellow, but the character who gives me the biggest headache is Chuck Rayner..."

Sid Smith: "I have yet to find an easy ?, but I´ll have to go with Bill Durnan as the toughest of them all."

Tod Sloan: "If you want the guys I had the most trouble with it´s Jack Gelineau and Sugar Jim Henry of Boston. But the best I´ve faced well I´d have to say Chuck Rayner."

Hap Day: "The best I´ve played against or seen well I think my man would be Frankie Brimsek. He broke my heart many a night when Boston had those good teams in the late 30´s and early 40´s. Mr. Zero had everything in those days. He was never the same after he served in the U.S. Force."

Woody Dumart: ...remarked that he found them all tough this season, but that during his 15-year stay in the league he´d have to pick Bill Durnan.

Bill Cook: "I´ll have to go along with Frank Boucher. That Terry Sawchuk is wonderful- a ? to become the greatest of all time if he isn´t greatest right at the moment."