Do any of the salary cap champs beat any of the pre-cap champs (90-04)

The Panther

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Some posters mentioning Montreal 1993, but was that not a very DEEP team? I'm not even sure any club today could match that team in relative depth:

Forward (age) $ = My guess as to what they'd make today
Savard (31) $9,000,000
Carbonneau (32) $7,000,000
Damphousse (25) $6,000,000
Muller (26) $6,000,000
Bellows (28) $6,000,000
Leeman (28) $5,000,000
Keane (25) $4,000,000
LeClair (23) $1,500,000
Lebeau (24) $1,200,000
(Then, a bunch of guys at entry-level salaries...)

Defence (age) $
Daigneault (27) $4,000,000
Desjardins (23) $4,000,000
Schneider (23) $3,000,000
Odelein (24) $2,000,000
Brisebois (22) $1,500,000
(Then, some guys at entry-level salaries...)
Goal (age) $
Roy (27) $10,000,000
Racicot (23) $1,500,000

Hm, so that's around $72,000,000 salary and there's still $10 or $11 million dollars left to cover all those entry level guys and the taxi-squaders and so on. Is it enough? Maybe.
 

Michael Farkas

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Savard getting 10x of his actual salary at the time is tough to rationalize, right...?

It's also a strange way to express their depth...

Two of their top scorers were Stephan Lebeau and Gilbert Dionne...not to mention Paul DiPietro in the playoffs...that's a fair about of guys that basically couldn't hack it in the league once the 90's expansion boom settled in...
 

The Panther

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Savard getting 10x of his actual salary at the time is tough to rationalize, right...?
Huh?
It's also a strange way to express their depth...
I'm not expressing anything. I just wanted to check if such a roster would be 'do-able' today, and I concluded that yeah, it probably is.
Two of their top scorers were Stephan Lebeau and Gilbert Dionne...not to mention Paul DiPietro in the playoffs...that's a fair about of guys that basically couldn't hack it in the league once the 90's expansion boom settled in...
Note sure what your agenda is here. Are you trying to make the point that Montreal '93 was a very un-deep team of fakers and bad players? And your way of making that point is to argue that once the League got more watered-down that some of the Montreal '93 players thus couldn't play at a high level anymore...?
 
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Gorskyontario

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Note sure what your agenda is here. Are you trying to make the point that Montreal '93 was a very un-deep team of fakers and bad players? And your way of making that point is to argue that once the League got more watered-down that some of the Montreal '93 players thus couldn't play at a high level anymore...?

I don't understand that either. I'm not sure what happened to Lebeau, but he scored 80 in the NHL, and 70 goals in the AHL. He was talented.
 

HolyHagelin

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At some point in 2001, White got swapped with Daneyko who was understandably aging out. By ice time on the 2003 team:

Stevens (23:05) - Rafalski (23:09)
White (19:41) - Niedermayer (24:30)
Daneyko (15:37) - Tverdovsky (16:48)
Albelin (15:13)

I was excited for Tverdovsky but he just did not fit in. He wasn't far removed from a couple of 50 point seasons. I was shocked when he had no trade value after the season and the Devils ended up not giving him a qualifying offer. Then he didn't get signed in the 2003 offseason before returning (briefly) post-lockout.

I think the 2001 Devils would have easily beaten the 2003 Devils. In a weird way I would totally swap the 2003 Cup for the 2001 Cup. Most people don't remember the 2001 team leading the league in scoring whereas the 2003 Cup reinforced some stereotypes about boring defensive hockey.

Unfortunately Holik/Mogilny left for free agency. Elias/Sykora/Gomez/Rafalski/Madden were all dirt cheap in 2001 but then got hefty raises on their next deals.
That devs team that lost to the avs was awesome, i was a young newspaper sports section editor at the time and i spent hours using my rudimentary photoshop skills to make a badass 2 page layout previewing the cup final, where i predicted the devils in6, largely because of their offensive advantage. I had brodeur and roy as a wash.
 

Michael Farkas

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Huh?

I'm not expressing anything. I just wanted to check if such a roster would be 'do-able' today, and I concluded that yeah, it probably is.

Note sure what your agenda is here. Are you trying to make the point that Montreal '93 was a very un-deep team of fakers and bad players? And your way of making that point is to argue that once the League got more watered-down that some of the Montreal '93 players thus couldn't play at a high level anymore...?
Un-deep? Fakers? No. But the spectacle of "could you possibly make such a great team today?" Then gave a player making $950,000 in '93 a $9,000,000 tag. A guy coming off a 39 point season making $7,000,000. All that just to land on them being the team with the least expenditure if they were in the league today...

I'm not saying it's a bad team by any means, I'm just saying this was a team that was greater than the sum of its parts, to a man.

Down the middle you have: Muller, Lebeau, D.Savard (late career, he was a healthy scratch at a point late in the '93 season), Carbonneau

Don't even leave the division...Quebec has: Sakic, Sundin, Ricci, C.Lapointe.

Buffalo has Lafontaine, Hawerchuk, Hannan...

A would-be opponent...Pittsburgh had Lemieux, Francis, Tippett, Straka, Stapleton

--

On D: Desjardins, Brisebois, Daigneault, M.Schneider, K.Haller, Odelein

That's good.

Again though...

Quebec had: Duchesne, Foote, Leschyshyn, Gusarov, S.Finn, Wolanin, Huffman

Buffalo, in fairness, probably not as strong: Bodger, Svoboda, K.Carney, Smehlik, Ledyard, B.Houlder, K.Sutton

Pittsburgh had: U.Samuelsson, L.Murphy, M.Ramsey, K.Samuelsson, Taglianetti, Stanton

I think Montreal is good team there, it's a fairly balanced lineup. But when you're banging the drum for prohibitively slow/softer players like Lebeau as a prominent piece...it doesn't really have the staying power...especially in a season like '93 where there were some real powerhouse situations...
 

MadLuke

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Some posters mentioning Montreal 1993, but was that not a very DEEP team? I'm not even sure any club today could match that team in relative depth:

Forward (age) $ = My guess as to what they'd make today
Savard (31) $9,000,000
Carbonneau (32) $7,000,000
Damphousse (25) $6,000,000
Muller (26) $6,000,000
Bellows (28) $6,000,000
Leeman (28) $5,000,000
Keane (25) $4,000,000
LeClair (23) $1,500,000
Lebeau (24) $1,200,000
(Then, a bunch of guys at entry-level salaries...)

Defence (age) $
Daigneault (27) $4,000,000
Desjardins (23) $4,000,000
Schneider (23) $3,000,000
Odelein (24) $2,000,000
Brisebois (22) $1,500,000
(Then, some guys at entry-level salaries...)
Goal (age) $
Roy (27) $10,000,000
Racicot (23) $1,500,000

Hm, so that's around $72,000,000 salary and there's still $10 or $11 million dollars left to cover all those entry level guys and the taxi-squaders and so on. Is it enough? Maybe.
Savard would have just been on the end of a bad contract you cannot trade type of situation (not saying 9M could not happen, obviously if he signed it before 1990 that possible.

Because of Desjardins, Brisebois, Schneider age and when they would have signed that team could have fitted.

Depending when he sign, Damphousse could be making more, he was 16th among forward in points from 89 to 92, maybe 3 winger had more points.

Kyle Connor is making $7.15 after a 57 and 66 pts season, signed in 2019, Reinhart at 6.5 after a 50 and 40 pts season signed in 2022.

Bellows was 33th in points (like a Dave Andreychuck goals-points wise), really good playoff pedigree, specially if he sign in summer of 1991 or in 1992 could be a good price tag has well.
 

The Panther

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Then gave a player making $950,000 in '93 a $9,000,000 tag. A guy coming off a 39 point season making $7,000,000. All that just to land on them being the team with the least expenditure if they were in the league today...
I literally have no idea what you are talking about here. Evidenly, you've completely misunderstand my post and thought I had an agenda to push, which I did not.
I'm not saying it's a bad team by any means,
Thanks for clarifying that the Cup champ wasn't a bad team.
But when you're banging the drum for prohibitively slow/softer players like Lebeau as a prominent piece....
I am not "banging the drum" by listing Lebeau's name as a part of the roster and suggesting he'd have had a low $1.2 million salary (which is, like, seven times lower than Darnel Nurse's salary today).
Savard would have just been on the end of a bad contract you cannot trade type of situation (not saying 9M could not happen, obviously if he signed it before 1990 that possible.
Yes, Savard's salary would have been lower if he'd re-signed in 1991 or something. I guess I am projecting that, by today's norm, he'd probably have signed a long-term contract in about 1988 or something and really cashed in for the next five or six years (like Tavares).
 

Michael Farkas

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Where is this agenda talk from here? Denis Savard was making less than a million dollars in 1993. You have him making $9 million. I find that strange. That's all.

You're welcome. Though, by your own assessment, you have them as the cheapest team in today's NHL. So what does that say...?

*Whistles* Lebeau's fake salary being compared to Darnell Nurse's current salary is really something. Having it expressed as "seven times lower" is just the cherry on top of that haha

Oh...there's no response to the actual substance of my post? Just these bizarre sidecars? All righty...
 

MadLuke

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Where is this agenda talk from here? Denis Savard was making less than a million dollars in 1993. You have him making $9 million. I find that strange. That's all.
82% of the 24 highest salary in the league at the time according to:

That would 8.4 millions today if we apply the maybe flawed logic.
 

Nerowoy nora tolad

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If the implication is supposed to be that salary cap champs as a group are way below those before the cap... hmm really?

If we take two of the most dominant winners on both sides in the 1997 Wings and 2010 Blackhawks, what exactly is the deciding difference? Osgood a better backup option than Huet, the wings defence is maybe marginally better? If you take those two teams and simulate a 7 game series over and over again, neither are ever going to run away with it.

Conversely I think more than a few pre-lockout winners would sweat profusely at the thought of facing the speed and skill of the 2008 wings or 2020 Lightning.
 

Gorskyontario

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If you take those two teams and simulate a 7 game series over and over again, neither are ever going to run away with it.

I would be surprised if the blackhawks scored more than 2-3 goals in a 4 game sweep, against the 1997 red wings.

Oh...there's no response to the actual substance of my post? Just these bizarre sidecars? All righty...

I was under the assumption that Panther was implying Lebeau would be 80 points on a cheap contract. Whatever happened to him later in his career is irrelevant in that context.
 

JianYang

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Un-deep? Fakers? No. But the spectacle of "could you possibly make such a great team today?" Then gave a player making $950,000 in '93 a $9,000,000 tag. A guy coming off a 39 point season making $7,000,000. All that just to land on them being the team with the least expenditure if they were in the league today...

I'm not saying it's a bad team by any means, I'm just saying this was a team that was greater than the sum of its parts, to a man.

Down the middle you have: Muller, Lebeau, D.Savard (late career, he was a healthy scratch at a point late in the '93 season), Carbonneau

Don't even leave the division...Quebec has: Sakic, Sundin, Ricci, C.Lapointe.

Buffalo has Lafontaine, Hawerchuk, Hannan...

A would-be opponent...Pittsburgh had Lemieux, Francis, Tippett, Straka, Stapleton

--

On D: Desjardins, Brisebois, Daigneault, M.Schneider, K.Haller, Odelein

That's good.

Again though...

Quebec had: Duchesne, Foote, Leschyshyn, Gusarov, S.Finn, Wolanin, Huffman

Buffalo, in fairness, probably not as strong: Bodger, Svoboda, K.Carney, Smehlik, Ledyard, B.Houlder, K.Sutton

Pittsburgh had: U.Samuelsson, L.Murphy, M.Ramsey, K.Samuelsson, Taglianetti, Stanton

I think Montreal is good team there, it's a fairly balanced lineup. But when you're banging the drum for prohibitively slow/softer players like Lebeau as a prominent piece...it doesn't really have the staying power...especially in a season like '93 where there were some real powerhouse situations...

93 was a funny team. Roy had a bad year by his standards. The team wrapped up the season on a slide by going winless in their final 5 games or so.

Yet they still finished with over 100 points, good for 6th overall.

Then, Roy finds his peak form in the middle of round 1, and a good team suddenly transformed into a great team, going 16-2 in their final 18 playoff games.

I think there is a perception that this club was a middling team that got hot in the playoffs, but it was a team 4 points away from 3rd overall in the league despite Roy's relatively poor season along with a bad slump to finish the regular season. Perhaps this perception stems from them only being ranked 3rd in the division.
 
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Doctor No

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2019: Binnington vs Rask - Rask is Rask, he's a good goalie. Binnington is a really interesting case. Kind of has that Craig Anderson element to him...where he's good for a 45 save shutout or he's got an early shower after giving up 4 on 16. I'm not sure if the numbers hint that at all @Doctor No but that's my feeling. This is another good matchup though. This isn't nearly as bad as what we had to deal with early on.

This is a good question and I need to dig in on this - my gut told me that I was going to say "yes, absolutely, Binnington is super inconsistent".

And then I went to pull some data to prove it...(interlude follows, skip if you'd like)

(Insert standard save percentage caveats and limitation statement here)


I do a calculation that compares how a goaltender's opponent-adjusted save percentage varies from game to game within a season. Just to make the example simpler, let's suppose that Goaltender A and Goaltender B both have season save percentages of 91.0%. If Goaltender A's game-by-game save percentages are 91.0%, 91.0%, 91.0%... 91.0%, and Goaltender B's game-by-game save percentages are 85.0%, 97.0%, 85.0%, 97.0%, ..., then Goaltender A is far more game-to-game consistent than Goaltender B. You know exactly what you're going to get every game from Goaltender A.

Consistency in this context can be good or bad - first of all, if a goaltender's consistently bad, that's good to know but not helpful. Second of all, especially on a bad team you might be able to live with Goaltender B's lows (since you were going to lose anyhow) but you might steal some games on Goaltender B's highs.

Fortunately there's a mathematical calculation that follows from binomial distributions that allows you to say "if I distributed the composite randomly, what would be a typical distribution?". And we can then look at individual goaltenders' distribution of game-by-game results and compare to the typical distribution.

(end interlude)

Looking at Binnington's season variances (starting at 2018-19), he's 0.95, 0.90, 0.85, 0.95, 1.02, and 0.98 (for the regular season just ending). 1.00 is "par", so Binnington is regularly more consistent than that.

To allow people to sniff test whether this method "works", here are the five most consistent goaltenders in 2023-2024 (min. 1000 shots):
Linus Ullmark (0.79)
Jacob Markstrom (0.82)
Connor Hellebuyck (0.83)
Elvis Merzlikins (0.83)
Joey Daccord (0.84)

It's important to re-emphasize that "consistent" does not necessarily mean "awesome". Merzlikins stood out to me as "hmm, I'd better double check that befoer posting" specifically here. If you look at his game logs:


One thing you'll see is that when he truly was off, he was removed pretty quickly. So on a shots-weighted basis, his stinkers were minimized.

Anyhow, the "most consistent" goaltender by this metric is Linus Ullmark. Overall, 40% of his games (shots-weighted basis) were "average", and 40%/3%/0% were +1SD/+2SD/+3SD above average. Conversely, 12%/5%/0% of his games were -1SD/-2SD/-3SD below average.

Compare against the five least consistent goaltenders:
Samuel Ersson (1.20)
Pyotr Kochetkov (1.16)
Mackenzie Blackwood (1.15)
Tristan Jarry (1.14)
Filip Gustavsson (1.13)

40% of Samuel Ersson's games were "average" - just like Ullmark, which is a nice coincidence. But 20%/8%/0% of Ersson's games were above average, and 16%/13%/3% of his games were below average. 16% of Ersson's games were at least two standard deviations below expected (compared with just 5% of Ullmark's games). And 8% of Ersson's games were at least two standard deviations above average (compared with 3% of Ullmark's). Ersson's games are a lot more spread out.

So that's a lot of words to say that Binnington's slightly more game-to-game consistent than an average NHL goaltender.

We'll include one more save percentage caveat - in particular, one thing that is likely bleeding in here would be a team's consistency in preventing high-danger shots.
 
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Michael Farkas

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All right, well, if you don't know, you don't know...


;)

Wow, yeah, thanks for that. I can throw out my word-a-day calendar and just re-read that interlude every day and probably be better off.

From a "feel" perspective...a lot of that makes sense. I wouldn't expect the Blues under Craig Berube to allow a ton of high-danger and second-chance opportunities for most of his tenure there.

Linus Ullmark in Boston - makes sense. Hellebuyck in Winnipeg - makes sense. Not so much the Joey Daccord part, but Seattle goalie - makes sense.

You explained Elvis already. That's an interesting one. I also wonder a little bit about just the pure amount of shots he must have faced helps that number, ehhh, "stabilize" (?) somehow...that's a tough spot for a goalie right now.

The five goalies on the least consistent list make sense by the eye...Ersson is pretty random, young Kochetkov can make a mess of things, Jarry runs hot and cold (also, his 1H vs 2H play is probably a lead culprit here)...Blackwood is a wildcard all the time...

But yeah, evidently my feel on Binnington isn't on point right now and that's fair enough and I won't say it anymore haha - thank you sir.
 
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Doctor No

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All right, well, if you don't know, you don't know...


;)

Wow, yeah, thanks for that. I can throw out my word-a-day calendar and just re-read that interlude every day and probably be better off.

From a "feel" perspective...a lot of that makes sense. I wouldn't expect the Blues under Craig Berube to allow a ton of high-danger and second-chance opportunities for most of his tenure there.

Linus Ullmark in Boston - makes sense. Hellebuyck in Winnipeg - makes sense. Not so much the Joey Daccord part, but Seattle goalie - makes sense.

You explained Elvis already. That's an interesting one. I also wonder a little bit about just the pure amount of shots he must have faced helps that number, ehhh, "stabilize" (?) somehow...that's a tough spot for a goalie right now.

The five goalies on the least consistent list make sense by the eye...Ersson is pretty random, young Kochetkov can make a mess of things, Jarry runs hot and cold (also, his 1H vs 2H play is probably a lead culprit here)...Blackwood is a wildcard all the time...

But yeah, evidently my feel on Binnington isn't on point right now and that's fair enough and I won't say it anymore haha - thank you sir.

I agree with your thesis on Merzlikins - there are a few ways I can work with the data to try and tease that out. One thing I've noticed is that the phenomenon that you correctly espouse regarding the limitations of save percentage seems to be magnifying itself over the last few years as teams deliberately take different tactical paths to victory.

Goodhart's Law says that when you start using a measure as a target, it ceases to become a good measure. That's not exactly what's happening here, but it's possible that back in the day it was (more) a case that on average, the proportion of high-difficulty and low-difficulty shots evened out in most cases. It feels to me like teams have been deliberately accentuating differences in strategy that bears out in save percentage - and my biased notion is that it seems like you now see a lot more games where a team will face 40+ shots and win, or games where a team allows four goals on 19 shots. In the past, it feels like (for all of its flaws) save percentage "worked better" than it does now. This can all be tested, of course (adding it to my list).

This gives me a chance to tout Antti Raanta's game where he allowed eight goals on fourteen shots in late November.

And one of my favorite Twitter interactions, with the great John Garrett:

1715968139107.png


John's absolutely right, of course (and I did tell him so) - the point of hockey games is not to put up an impressive save percentage. The point of hockey games is to win hockey games.

I also think that score effects are in play here to some degree which I'm working on over the summer.
 
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MadLuke

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He was making about $900k in real life, he got assigned $9 mil in this thought exercise...
This is said like it is a bigger deal than it is I feel like.

Savard signed that contract in 1989, on that contract he made 1 millions during the 1991 season, according to this:
different number here:
and here:

So I could not tell, but he was making a top 10 salary in the league some years of that contract on all of those, what would it be in today nhl ?

Say 2024 Denis Savard was playing on a contract that he signed in 2018 ? (so around 1989) finished third in the league in points the year before, 7th in ppg that season missing game, would a $9 million a year deal outragous ?

10x from when Savard signed in the 80s versus the late 2010s when he signed in this made up scenario does not seem that out of place.
 
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Air Budd Dwyer

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If my memory serves me right, the 1996-97 Red Wings iced this team during the playoffs:

Sandstrom-Yzerman-McCarty
Kozlov-Fedorov-Brown
Shanahan-Larionov-Lapointe
Maltby-Draper-Kocur

Lidstrom-Murphy
Fetisov-Konstantinov
Ward-Rouse

Vernon
Osgood

16-4 that postseason and knocked off the defending champions. I've always thought that particular team had the perfect blend of skill and grit. They just wore everyone down.
 

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